MISSING credibility of the French pedigrees

[Watchwolf]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Why the hostilities in responses? I see Admin simply wrote that there are multiple kennels are using mixes, that not to buy from such kennel, .. That's all. Seems like a common sense warning when someone wants a specific purebred breed. I didn't see where Admin wrote 'don't buy vlcaks from France, period'...

For those protesting, are you really saying there is not widespread mixes being used?

I agree with you but the story is a lot more complicated.
Now Admin tell to people "do not buy french dog because ...". He can't say this thing and stay hidden. This is too important.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Watchwolf

I agree with you but the story is a lot more complicated.
Now Admin tell to people "do not buy french dog because ...". He can't say this thing and stay hidden. This is too important.

ok who he mas say? say for us please

[Watchwolf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

ok who he mas say? say for us please

I do not understand your message :/

I am not against Admin. I am not a breeder or a owner of CLT. I understand and I am ok with the idea of MIX and remove MIX from the loop.

But currently there is no real proof and this is the main problem. You can not accuse without proof and even more when you do it anonymously. you are innocent until proven guilty

The guilty party will never come to you and say "yes I have ...". Until now Admin did not give us a way to prove a dog is a MIX.

When he say "do not buy french dog" he goes too far. He can give his opinion or tell to people "I think ..." but people who do not follow all discussions can't have a complete opinion with the main message of this topic.

If he write a message with all his arguments and then say "I think you should not buy french dogs except if you know what you do" I will be ok with him.

At the end, if you do not know who Admin is, you can not give importance to his opinion. Maybe he have his reason to destroy the french dogs, or french breeder or french or maybe he only like dogs and hate MIX, we do not know.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Watchwolf

I do not understand your message :/

I am not against Admin. I am not a breeder or a owner of CLT. I understand and I am ok with the idea of MIX and remove MIX from the loop.

But currently there is no real proof and this is the main problem. You can not accuse without proof and even more when you do it anonymously. you are innocent until proven guilty

The guilty party will never come to you and say "yes I have ...". Until now Admin did not give us a way to prove a dog is a MIX.

When he say "do not buy french dog" he goes too far. He can give his opinion or tell to people "I think ..." but people who do not follow all discussions can't have a complete opinion with the main message of this topic.

If he write a message with all his arguments and then say "I think you should not buy french dogs except if you know what you do" I will be ok with him.

sorry but arguments are in this ALL forum this are only one from all message. Read all forum and see - admin are rigth, and only he and others people try have pure breed and change this situation, but not french breeder ( not alls, are and they who work too) for this time we have only worts " jelous, stupid admin, not important pure is important only wolfish mix who not are similar to CSV and moore bla bla bla". Who mas clean Your country - french or others lands. for this admin say very correct- now suspicious are almost all breeder and dogs. Maybe is time begin make cleaning self? or fopr You all FR dogs who naming in all themat are PURE and super duper ok?

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Watchwolf

At the end, if you do not know who Admin is, you can not give importance to his opinion. Maybe he have his reason to destroy the french dogs, or french breeder or french or maybe he only like dogs and hate MIX, we do not know.

ooo this same style like "jelous and bla bla bla"
p.s.
why admin ( I too ) mas love a MIX with a CSV pedigree? MIX are ONLY PET CLAS CATEGORY animal but not moore- no breed, no pedigree no purity, NOTHING only animal for love - PET

[Pericles 40]

There IS a limitation written in the standard. The FCI breed standard (http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/332GB99_en.doc) describe Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs as dogs with "above average size". Not "small" and not "huge" - but above average size. As "average size" FCI list breeds where males are about 65cm high. All breeds growing over 70cm are described as HUGE breeds.
So according to the FCI the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog male should have 65-70cm. Females should be smaller and easy to recognize (+ "Sex should be unmistakable.")


But here we do not speak about standard but about outcrossings. It is typical that outcrosses lead to high dogs. And the mixes with Saarloos proved this - even if the parents were small the puppies were very high dogs. The Crying Wolf kennel was known for years for dogs which hardly reach the minimum size. Now we have mystery litters where dogs grow bigger even than the Czech lines.
The same is visible in France where out of parent of average and above the average size we get dogs (where it is known that they are AWD-crosses) which reach much more that 70cm at early age.

The size is not the only proof but can be another advice that something is really going on in the mentioned lines.


my dod 73 cm, it's not a Clt fot Admi, to big? watt a pitty

[yukidomari]

Watchwolf, did you read the thread on here where admin did post his or her argument?

Maybe wanting to know who Admin is or accuser's name is a cultural difference? For me, I don't care who Admin is or anyone else,.. If the words are true, that is more important to me.

Besides, photos from questionable kennels can be seen if you search. My own amateur eyes see those photos posted here and elsewhere, .. ...

[Watchwolf]

Admin should learn what his job is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interne...#Administrator
then come back without specific status and tell to people what you think.

It is not a fair fight when you have a admin or moderator versus a simple member. And here the admin is hidden :/

Then he gives his opinion with arguments. Some People on the forum or some people on google will not search his arguments, they will only read this topic.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Watchwolf

Admin should learn what his job is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interne...#Administrator
then come back without specific status and tell to people what you think.

This is a private site and the owners decide on the status of the Admin, not you or wikipedia.

Originally Posted by Watchwolf

It is not a fair fight when you have a admin or moderator versus a simple member. And here the admin is hidden :/

I'm not surprised he's hidden, after all what Margo had to go through when she was acting admin. BTW I'll give you a secret hint... Admin's French and only pretends he doesn't speak the language.

Originally Posted by Watchwolf

Then he gives his opinion with arguments. Some People on the forum or some people on google will not search his arguments, they will only read this topic.

Neither will some, who listen to Frank and other French breeders/owners who write all sort of things on their own websites and other forums.
Frank mentioned this in some other thread! Calm down , wolfdog.org is not the centre of the Universe, there are people who own and breed vlcaks and don't even know about this site.

[Jet]

I really prefer you act your choice on a list of dogs rather than a country, or a list of breeders.

In fact, perhaps, there are some breeders in France who may be used a Mixed CSV in the past, with papers ok, without knowing the truth about it. And now, they are breeding Pure CSV.

Everybody can make mistake, understand it, and so on turn into the right way.

Not all people in a country is running to the same way, as a a flock of sheep.

[GalomyOak]

Maybe a better more "culturally sensitive" solution, is to not buy, or buy with caution, any dog belonging to or descended from this list (regardless of where the dog is born). I assume all suspected mixes have been added to this list:

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...=mix&wtype=dog

And if buying with the intention to breed, maybe also use caution with this list?

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...-fci&wtype=dog

I do hope people of all nations take responsibility, love and care for the health and purity of our breed.

[Pericles 40]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Maybe a better more "culturally sensitive" solution, is to not buy, or buy with caution, any dog belonging to or descended from this list (regardless of where the dog is born). I assume all suspected mixes have been added to this list:

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...=mix&wtype=dog

And if buying with the intention to breed, maybe also use caution with this list?

http://www.wolfdog.org/php/modules.p...-fci&wtype=dog

I do hope people of all nations take responsibility, love and care for the health and purity of our breed.

bravo, je pense la meme chose

[tupacs2legs]

believe it or not there are csv owners in England as i am sure there is in France that wish the best for this breed and want them to be kept pure.. tarring all people with the same brush is not right or fair.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I do hope people of all nations take responsibility, love and care for the health and purity of our breed.

Nicely said, Marcy, I agree 100% on the ideological level. There are honest honest and dishonest people everywhere, honest and dishonest breeders among them, so applying nationalist approach to dog breeding is absurd.

But it's not feasible for "people of all nations" to take action in this particular situation. I suppose what Admin meant was that if they really cared about the breed, French breeders and French KC with cooperation, if necessary, of other national KCs and FCI (?) should start doing something to clear the mess. Especially, that it was Lorry - a French breeder , who initiated the topic of mixes/ DM "miracles" and most of the dogs with questioned pedigrees live in France.

BTW If I had a breeding dog with a questioned pedigree I'd do the same what the owner of Juri ZP did - immediately take him to Laboklin lab to have his DNA profiles stored there for further investigation and comaprisons. Such action shows honest intentions and is much more logical and efficient than spending days and weeks accusing the Admin of all the evil in the world.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Watchwolf

But currently there is no real proof and this is the main problem. You can not accuse without proof and even more when you do it anonymously. you are innocent until proven guilty

WHAT?

The owner of American Wolfdog told that CPouchka is daughter of his AWD Unkas. The same with Ckinay. There is a person (witness) who will sign under the paper which can bi given to your kennel club. It is not enough?

There are many photos of the German Shepherd, and Husky alike dogs which are born in France. Such "mutation" by Wolfdogs would be not possible even in the de la Louve Blanche kennel would be situated next to Chernobyl power plant! Sorry for the sarcastic words but what do you want more? Should I go to France - steal Couchka and both her "parents" and make the DNA tests? You all know it is not possible. And second - since the French kennel club is the FCI member country it must care for the credibility of its pedigrees. What is missing now. It is their DUTY.

I know the breed club has a lot work to do. And i know there is a World Dog Show in Paris soon (where many mongrels and mixes will enter the show ring) and because of it the French officials have no time to care for it at the moment. I know for many breeders and owners it was hard to believe that an FCI breeder can do something like this. But it was done. Not one time and not only in one kennel (there are at last 3 sources of French mongrels).
One thing is sure: YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.

The pedigrees are worth nothing at the moment and ONLY YOU AND YOUR KENNEL CLUB can solve this problem.

[ArImInIuM]

Originally Posted by Admin

WHAT?

The owner of American Wolfdog told that CPouchka is daughter of his AWD Unkas. The same with Ckinay. There is a person (witness) who will sign under the paper which can bi given to your kennel club. It is not enough?

There are many photos of the German Shepherd, and Husky alike dogs which are born in France. Such "mutation" by Wolfdogs would be not possible even in the de la Louve Blanche kennel would be situated next to Chernobyl power plant! Sorry for the sarcastic words but what do you want more? Should I go to France - steal Couchka and both her "parents" and make the DNA tests? You all know it is not possible. And second - since the French kennel club is the FCI member country it must care for the credibility of its pedigrees. What is missing now. It is their DUTY.

I know the breed club has a lot work to do. And i know there is a World Dog Show in Paris soon (where many mongrels and mixes will enter the show ring) and because of it the French officials have no time to care for it at the moment. I know for many breeders and owners it was hard to believe that an FCI breeder can do something like this. But it was done. Not one time and not only in one kennel (there are at last 3 sources of French mongrels).
One thing is sure: YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.

The pedigrees are worth nothing at the moment and ONLY YOU AND YOUR KENNEL CLUB can solve this problem.

unkas est toujours vivant ?? on peut faire des tests sur lui non ??
pour ce qui est de ckinay, qui est le père de jalisca va falloir sérieusement arrêter d'affabuler .......





unkas is still alive? one can not test him?

in terms of ckinay, who is the father of Jalisca will have to seriously stop storyteller .......



http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/9961



d'ou ce chien est issu d'un AWD ?????


or of the dog comes from a AWD ?????

et sa fille jalisca


and daughter Jalisca

http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/12871



ou cette chienne ressemble à un AWD ???

or that bitch looks like a AWD??

arrêtez de dire n'importe quoi, si tel est le cas, apportez les preuves maintenant, mais arrêtez de lancer de tels débats qui au final n'aboutiront à rien, ADMIN, tu es fatigant, vraiment fatigant


stop saying anything, if that is the case, make the evidence now, but stop throwing such debates that ultimately will come to nothing, ADMIN, you're tiring, really tiring

donc soit vous apportez les preuves tout de suite, soit vous attendez avant de dénigrer qui que ce soit , s'en devient lassant de votre part....

So you either bring proof immediately, or you wait to denigrate anyone, it becomes tiring on your part

DES PREUVES, NOUS VOULONS DES PREUVES pas de SUPPOSITIONS


EVIDENCE, WE WANT PROOF no ASSUMPTIONS

[yukidomari]

Well, I don't have anything against French breeders or any reason to support Admin (I'm not even a breeder..) but I think one simply needs to read carefully.. all the answers are here, as far as I can tell?

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

EVIDENCE, WE WANT PROOF no ASSUMPTIONS

Originally Posted by Admin

Should I go to France - steal Couchka and both her "parents" and make the DNA tests? You all know it is not possible. And second - since the French kennel club is the FCI member country it must care for the credibility of its pedigrees. What is missing now. It is their DUTY.

....
One thing is sure: YOU MUST DO SOMETHING.

The pedigrees are worth nothing at the moment and ONLY YOU AND YOUR KENNEL CLUB can solve this problem.

[wolfin]

I wait from antswers in Admins question, but i think.. we very long for this wait. Ariminium maybe you make this?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by ArImInIuM

EVIDENCE, WE WANT PROOF no ASSUMPTIONS

But aren't you the one, whocan give real proof your dogs are not mixes? Just make a dnr test, it is not that expensive

Kaip su plikiu pešiotis...

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

But aren't you the one, whocan give real proof your dogs are not mixes? Just make a dnr test, it is not that expensive

Kaip su plikiu pešiotis...

about this and speak Admin, but they ignore questions only cry

būtent, koležanke iš trečiosios šalies