British Kennel Club Recognition

[happyfeet]

Originally Posted by hedeon

For example he could reject someone from this forum (why not? If demand is so high he will find another buyer no problem) just to say in future "look how wonderful breeder I am, I've rejected one of you, because I really care about my pups." Or if a cross would be sold as a pure CSV, someone from this forum could actually find out that, and make a lot of unwanted noise on the forum. Explanations may be many, so I don't think these messages are conflicting really. I never said he is a terrible person. He just crosses CSV with others breeds, and I don't really like to get my dog from breeder who does that. That's it.

hmm.. but couldnt any of the breeders? I dont think that many prospective owners use the forum and there are quite a few forums, to be fair I've never seen the forum until 3 months ago and was put off registering as its quite anti UK on many threads. So what you have to say on here surely makes no difference to the breeder, but who knows!! we dont know why he rejected members of the forum I find it highly unlikely it would be because they are members?

I still think that its all conflicting... would I buy from him..NO, Why? Because I would need to know more,see more and speak with a breeder first to make my own mind up whether he or she is fit and responsible in my own eyes..be it UK/EUROPE

Being a member on here and a breeder doesnt in my mind say this person must be good as they post on a forum?

Does he care for where his puppys are going well he seems to ? and we agree on one thing would you buy from a breeder who also breeds crosses? NO too risky!

Did I say that you had said he was a terrible breeder? I think not!!!

Its a shame that he isnt able to respond to the treads and quotes and voice his own opinion as we all can do.
However I dont know the history of the breeders etc so perhaps there is a reason he was blocked from commenting?

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

...I dont think that many prospective owners use the forum and there are quite a few forums, to be fair I've never seen the forum until 3 months ago and was put off registering as its quite anti UK on many threads.

Well, good prospective owner will do a research on breed before even deciding does he want to be a owner of such breed, right? Well, assuming he is able to use internet, that will be one of first places to do such research. When typed "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" into google, wolfdog.org came up on second and third place in search results. I think if someone never heard of wolfdog.org, never really searched anything about CSV in internet.
I never had problem registering on this forum and I am from Uk, and I never initially stated that I am Polish in fact.

Originally Posted by happyfeet

...would I buy from him..NO, Why? Because I would need to know more,see more and speak with a breeder first to make my own mind up whether he or she is fit and responsible in my own eyes..be it UK/EUROPE...
Being a member on here and a breeder doesnt in my mind say this person must be good as they post on a forum?

100% agree.
Regarding Tupac as breeder, I think Rona has such opinion about Tupac not only because she is a member of this forum, and she posts.

[kalcon]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

hmm.. but couldnt any of the breeders? I dont think that many prospective owners use the forum and there are quite a few forums, to be fair I've never seen the forum until 3 months ago and was put off registering as its quite anti UK on many threads. So what you have to say on here surely makes no difference to the breeder, but who knows!! we dont know why he rejected members of the forum I find it highly unlikely it would be because they are members?

I still think that its all conflicting... would I buy from him..NO, Why? Because I would need to know more,see more and speak with a breeder first to make my own mind up whether he or she is fit and responsible in my own eyes..be it UK/EUROPE

Being a member on here and a breeder doesnt in my mind say this person must be good as they post on a forum?

Does he care for where his puppys are going well he seems to ? and we agree on one thing would you buy from a breeder who also breeds crosses? NO too risky!

Did I say that you had said he was a terrible breeder? I think not!!!

Its a shame that he isnt able to respond to the treads and quotes and voice his own opinion as we all can do.
However I dont know the history of the breeders etc so perhaps there is a reason he was blocked from commenting?

he was blocked because he kicked up about this czech wolfdog being abused by top kennel as breeding machine, look it up, AMRA VLCI NADEJE or go to data base and find kennel ARIMMINUM 10 litters of pups producing 69 pups breed 3 times to same sire, first litter was born when bitch was just 1 year and 3 days old last litter bitch was 10 yrs and 5 mths old when she had last litter,,,, but this is not the only kennel breeding like this is it,,,, also in data base put in non fci, you get some non fci czech wolfdogs but the site has removed many many of the x bred ones,,,,,,ok for europe but not for uk,,,,,,,ok for european breeders to x breed, ok for european breeders to mix in wolf ,,,,,,,,,,,,in uk they cant and dont try to register the x breds in europe many back street breders do,,,,,Admin please put up all non fci wolfdogs for all to see,,,,,,Rona you and other condemed mr winder for his comments on the breeding practice of Arimminum kennels i have read old posts,but you did remove a lot didnt you,,,,,question to MIJKE can you give people of uk full list of all health defects found in this breed Czechoslovakian wolfdog, it would be nice to have them all,,,,,,,,

[Rona]

I feel responsible for my words and I have never ever removed ANY of my posts!!! Not to mention that not being a moderator I simply could not do it!

Neither have I ever approved breeding many litters from one female, and even once asked Edit (Crying Wolf) on the forum how it was formally possible for her to register 3 litters of the same bitch in 2 years. Not that I was satisfied with her relpy, but what can we do if Hungarian KC accepts such practices?
Nevertheless, I would never support such a kennel and buy a pup from them, though somebody told me, you(r beloved Ronnie) did so IMO an experienced and responisble breeder should research a kennel well before getting a dog, so lack of knowldege does not justify such a step.

I see you, just like Mr Winder, seem to have some obsession with me, but I could not have abused my female because I have never bred any pups, so leave me alone, please.

Younger forum members might not know, but when I first joined wd in 2004 I was really trying hard to help Mr Winder struggle with DEFRA - signed petitions, wrote several letters, even organized a small pressure group: my family an friends in the UK supported the case by e-mailing DEFRA! I also took and forwarded photos showing how "normal" dogs CSVs were etc. etc.

Believe me or not, but I was probably one of the most disppointed members of this forum when I found out that Mr Winder was mix-breeding CSVs with a wolf, thus IMO - abusing the breed! In my country, if a registered breeder is found to have done so, he's banned from breeding for good: his kennel is closed and he cannot ever become a National KC member and show his dogs in dog shows.

And please don't tell me that breeders in other countries break the law or code of ethics - just like Hedeon mentioned - this is not a valid argument, because it does not give one any rights to do the same.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by kalcon

he was blocked because he kicked up about this czech wolfdog being abused by top kennel as breeding machine,

We all know that it's not truth, also I knew you would come back and try to use this excuse for explain why you was banned at that time, and that is exactly why I did this topic at Administration forum.

Originally Posted by Kalcon

Rona you and other condemed mr winder for his comments on the breeding practice of Arimminum kennels i have read old posts,but you did remove a lot didnt you

How you supposed she did that, if she clearly isn't Admin or an Moderator?
Uuhm... There is some kind of Daltonism which have exactly this effect, to mistake yellow and blue, have you ever think about visit an good ophthalmologist?!

Originally Posted by Kalcon

ok for european breeders to x breed, ok for european breeders to mix in wolf ,,,,,,,,,,,,in uk they cant and dont try to register the x breds in europe many back street breders do,,,,,

It isn't ok in any country ruled by FCI. Haven't mr Winder, which lived long time in Europe to learn about wolfdogs and breeding (as you said), told you about that?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

It isn't ok in any country ruled by FCI. Haven't mr Winder, which lived long time in Europe to learn about wolfdogs and breeding (as you said), told you about that?

Mr. Winder contacted me personally on Facebook, telling I am wrong not to be happy about CsW/wolf hybrids in UK, because people in Europe do the same. I asked for names of dogs again, and Mr. Winder dissapeared
Anyway, I have an idea which Lithuanian bred dogs might look like wolf hybrids for unexperienced eye and this makes me really happy

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Mr. Winder contacted me personally on Facebook, telling I am wrong not to be happy about CsW/wolf hybrids in UK, because people in Europe do the same. I asked for names of dogs again, and Mr. Winder dissapeared
Anyway, I have an idea which Lithuanian bred dogs might look like wolf hybrids for unexperienced eye and this makes me really happy

Hasn't Mr. Winder ever heard the expression 'two wrongs don't make a right'?

[AMERICANI]

Is it really, HONESTLY, possible to be that naive to think it is OK to cross breed wolves into pure CsV's to make better CsV's?? Lets say I am breeding Beagles.... How in the hell am I going to think I have made the breed any better by making a mutt? It isn't OK...Plain and simple... Then there is the fact that anything including "wolf blood" is going to catch a small share of negative attention. To countries who are new to CsV's, this is a slap in the face of any potential, positive, attention to our breed.

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

Is it really, HONESTLY, possible to be that naive to think it is OK to cross breed wolves into pure CsV's to make better CsV's?? Lets say I am breeding Beagles.... How in the hell am I going to think I have made the breed any better by making a mutt? It isn't OK...Plain and simple... Then there is the fact that anything including "wolf blood" is going to catch a small share of negative attention. To countries who are new to CsV's, this is a slap in the face of any potential, positive, attention to our breed.

its a statement that is used as an excuse to cross by people that do not know the first thing about the breed 'csv'

it could go both ways though,hopefully if the breed is recognised people will realise they are a domestic dog breed and not a pet wolf and the 'interest' of these numptys will dwindle...hopefully...maybe?

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

Is it really, HONESTLY, possible to be that naive to think it is OK to cross breed wolves into pure CsV's to make better CsV's?? Lets say I am breeding Beagles.... How in the hell am I going to think I have made the breed any better by making a mutt? It isn't OK...Plain and simple... Then there is the fact that anything including "wolf blood" is going to catch a small share of negative attention. To countries who are new to CsV's, this is a slap in the face of any potential, positive, attention to our breed.

I think there is a documentary movie which can explain many of cross breeding excuses. Some time ago BBC have made a film "pedigree dogs exposed" which kind of shocked people in UK, and made Kennel Club to loose a lot of public respect. Basically, movie is about genetics problems and sicknesses of pedigree dogs in UK, caused by inbreeding. Public was terrified and shocked. So I imagine some breeders started to use a "care for breed, and health of dogs" as a excuse to cross. It could make good impression on shocked public, and put breeder in glory of animal lover. Problem is CSV ie relatively new breed, and from very beginning breeders are aware of problems caused by inbreeding. In fact CSV is one of healthiest dog breeds.

Link to movie (1 hour long):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXHFOrBbEc

[mijke]

Originally Posted by kalcon

question to MIJKE can you give people of uk full list of all health defects found in this breed Czechoslovakian wolfdog, it would be nice to have them all,,,,,,,,

This is since a long time for everybody to find on the Wolfdog-Healthinfo site

[pixie]

Why all the bitching, anybody in britain want to meet up to organise a strtegy to get the CSV recognised by the kennel club

[Murph]

Originally Posted by pixie

Why all the bitching, anybody in britain want to meet up to organise a strtegy to get the CSV recognised by the kennel club

Well there is the facebook page but its always pretty quiet on there!

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Murph

Well there is the facebook page but its always pretty quiet on there!

Which FB page is that Murph? The only one I could find has died a death due to the infighting of the breeders... Maybe a new one needs to be started up to get a database of pure CsV's in the UK started?

[yukidomari]

I wish the best of luck in getting CsV recognized in the UK. According to Hedeon's post on page 4 regarding recognition, the KC rules states the following info must be included:

- Names & addresses of UK owners/importers
- Total number of dogs of the breed in the UK
[ideally at least 20, preferably unrelated]
- Copies of pedigrees of UK dogs – at least 3 generations
- Proposed breeding plan and indication of available gene pool

Hopefully there will be some breeders in the future who can fulfill point 4, because surely a proposed breeding plan acceptable by the KC can not include cross breeding or mixing.

[Aranwen]

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Which FB page is that Murph? The only one I could find has died a death due to the infighting of the breeders... Maybe a new one needs to be started up to get a database of pure CsV's in the UK started?

Excellent idea!

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Which FB page is that Murph? The only one I could find has died a death due to the infighting of the breeders... Maybe a new one needs to be started up to get a database of pure CsV's in the UK started?

Nice idea, but why on FB? Maybe here it is possible to name at least the dogs, then the breeding plan could be made by experienced CsW breeders together?

[Tazer]

Originally Posted by pixie

Why all the bitching, anybody in britain want to meet up to organise a strtegy to get the CSV recognised by the kennel club

Brilliant idea.

Taz

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by pixie

Why all the bitching, anybody in britain want to meet up to organise a strtegy to get the CSV recognised by the kennel club

Well, I fully agree. One person is not able to do it, owners need to unite and cooperate to get CSV recognized. I am no owner yet. Hope that I will become soon. But I am willing to help any way I can.
And we will also need help of more experienced people from this forum as I dont completely understand what KC mean by "Proposed breeding plan" and "Gene pool".

By FB you probably meant this group:
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?g...3469887&ref=ts

[happyfeet]

Originally Posted by hedeon

Well, I fully agree. One person is not able to do it, owners need to unite and cooperate to get CSV recognized. I am no owner yet. Hope that I will become soon. But I am willing to help any way I can.
And we will also need help of more experienced people from this forum as I dont completely understand what KC mean by "Proposed breeding plan" and "Gene pool".

By FB you probably meant this group:
https://www.facebook.com/group.php?g...3469887&ref=ts

I would be very careful joining the above group the admin one named sandra curry is a main promoter of crossing czech and she has just breed czech with german shepard and is selling these as 'anglo wolfdogs' and many on this site are actually not breeding pure they are mixing them!! In my opinion this is truely shocking and the more I look the more shocking it is...

This is her website and links to all the other ones!!

http://www.sansorrella.com/breed%20information.htm

I see you are a member and post on here? same as the breeder that is mentioned throughout this link

I agree it would be great to find a like minded bunch in the uk that are not mixing this breed .... I THINK from what little i've seen its going to be hard to find breeders who dont dabble in mixing this breed in the UK...as each and everyone i've seen mix breed......along side 'pure breed'...hmmm lots of dabbling going on!!

You need to look at this anglo wolfdog site!!!!!!!!