Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[yukidomari]

Envoyé par Priska182

I would like to understand... Why some dogs named "!!!MIX!!!" are put as mix in the database?
Did DNA test have been done for them? And if it’s the case why often the 2 parents shown in there pedigree are real CsV?

Like for example: Ckynaï de la Louve Blanche (!!!_MIX_!!!) who is: 2 x Best Puppy, 4 x BOB, 1 x Best Junior, 2 x CACIB, 4 x CACS, 1 x res. CAC, 3 x res. CACIB, 3 x CAC, 1 x res. CACS, Ch.LUX

I believe the pedigree is posted as it exists under FCI papers, no matter what, if DNA tests prove otherwise..

[Margo]

Envoyé par Norky

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...and some Crying Wolf owners made it also ...of course all are csw!

Lets make me understanding - till now I'm reading here that is will be hard to make parentage tests even basing on the half-siblings. And she was able to make parentage test of dogs which are not living anymore?

I'm the first person who will be happy to know that she didn't made any crosses and the only problem are French American-Wolfdogs. But I'm also the last one who will believe in her words. And anything what was not made on the official.

[Margo]

Envoyé par Priska182

I would like to understand... Why some dogs named "!!!MIX!!!" are put as mix in the database?
Did DNA test have been done for them? And if it’s the case why often the 2 parents shown in there pedigree are real CsV?

Like for example: Ckynaï de la Louve Blanche (!!!_MIX_!!!) who is: 2 x Best Puppy, 4 x BOB, 1 x Best Junior, 2 x CACIB, 4 x CACS, 1 x res. CAC, 3 x res. CACIB, 3 x CAC, 1 x res. CACS, Ch.LUX

The father of Ckinay, CPouchka and maybe some other dogs from this litter is American Wolfdog Uncas. It was written somewhere here. But the database base on the FCI pedigree information. If the pedigrees will be canceled/fixed it will be done also here.

[Norky]

Envoyé par Margo

Lets make me understanding - till now I'm reading here that is will be hard to make parentage tests even basing on the half-siblings. And she was able to make parentage test of dogs which are not living anymore?

I'm the first person who will be happy to know that she didn't made any crosses and the only problem are French American-Wolfdogs. But I'm also the last one who will believe in her words. And anything what was not made on the official.

strange: you want DNA test, but doesn't believe the results....you want DNA test, but you kow to make parentage test is impossible as her old dogs, which are questionable for you are dead.
To be honest: this saarloose gene is very strange that appears just in the 2nd and 3rd generaton, because I have never seen Crying Wolf dog which would have sarloose alike. So maybe the problem is coming from somewhere else.
And to be honest . if you read back thios nice forum chatting, you musn't be wondering that Edit doesn't want to cooperate.For cooperation needs two part: you cancel her HD results, assist to the topics about her kennel and dogs yera by year.
year by year,
telling a lot of unreal thigs: like the kennelklub forbid to make pedigree her pups....??????????
I realy don't think that these forum would be for the breed. I'm sure many people are escape when see your bloody-mounth group!
And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary at teh age of 2000's, when Galiba and Flash born????????
What is the problem Margo??? You can't sale you pups?? You attact many breeders and talking lies and lies and lies. What is the fact?? You haevn't got nothing againt Edit!!!! Nothing!!!
And do you think a special judge would give a saarloose mix Re. CACIB in WDH Bratislava (Volos) or mate his male with a saarloose mix (Issar-Flash) ????
Or some slovakian and czeh breeders are stupid and can't see and buy saarloose mix???
something ele : could you tell me why would she make saarloose mixes with an old typed, homosigota red (it means couldn't bring other coloure) saarloose? It is totaly different type like csw.....and I'm still asking how could it happened that the saarloose alike dogs are coming just in the 2nd and 3rd generation...but not born in the kennel Crying Wolf.
Also question : is Edit idiot to come to mateing , pay studfee and than let the saarloose to fuck her female??????
STOP INSULTING EDIT and OWNER OF HER DOGS!!!!!

[Morian]

Envoyé par Norky

And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary ...is Edit idiot to come to mateing , pay studfee and than let the saarloose to fuck her female??????

[Norky]

Envoyé par Morian

And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary at teh age of 2000's, when Galiba and Flash born????????

We are talkin about 2000's......the time when Galiba and Flash born.Or do you think this saarloose live forever?

[Morian]

did anybody tell that galiba is a mix, or maybe flash??? i understood that it's still unknown from which dog it started. this photo shows possibility of appearing of a saarlos mix, no? all about this was written, maybe you didn't read...

[Norky]

Envoyé par Morian

did anybody tell that galiba is a mix, or maybe flash??? i understood that it's still unknown from which dog it started. this photo shows possibility of appearing of a saarlos mix, no? all about this was written, maybe you didn't read...

Who wrote????I think we don't read the same forum!
and : Edit bred lajkas, she has a malinois male (also red) and breed hungarian wirehair vizsla (also red)
It means she made mixes with lajkas, malinois or vizslas?????
Is she the only one breeder who has csw and saarloose??????

[monita]

No need for writing and talking senselessly. I think the breeders have only one request: official DNA test. And everything will be clear.

[Margo]

Envoyé par Norky

To be honest: this saarloose gene is very strange that appears just in the 2nd and 3rd generaton, because I have never seen Crying Wolf dog which would have sarloose alike. So maybe the problem is coming from somewhere else.

Please read again what I wrote about the red colour and how it is heritated! It is the most basic rule of the dog coat colour genetics. It is not STRANGE - it is normal. NORMAL is that the red color appears first later (when two genes meet) because it is RECESSIVE!

Envoyé par Norky

And to be honest . if you read back thios nice forum chatting, you musn't be wondering that Edit doesn't want to cooperate.

There are more CW owners which want to make the DNA tests. Are they also "sent by devil"? It is so bad that people want to know the truth? Some people really care about it - it is not because they want to fight with any breeder. They just want to be sure that dogs which they bought as CsW are really CsW. And the breeders want to know if the dogs they plan to use (who have CW blood) are real CsW.
Believe me - I will be the most happy person if everything will be cleared and it will be showed that the dogs are purebreed. It was enough damage done to our breed last time. We do not need one more mess.

Envoyé par Norky

And please tell me how many saarloose where around Hungary at teh age of 2000's, when Galiba and Flash born????????

Read what I wrote ONE MORE TIME - I don't think that Galiba is a mix. It is simple - he has born before the Sarloos was bought by CW.
BUT 1) I see there WAS a Saarloos living by CW, 2) Edith LAID that the dog can not be father of the puppies because he is sterilized and 3) she didn't agree to the DNA tests even when Lorry was prepared to pay for them.
Maybe for you it is normal behavior of a breeder. Not for me.

Envoyé par Norky

Or some slovakian and czeh breeders are stupid and can't see and buy saarloose mix???

I was in Slovakia and I know what the breeders there think about it. Believe me - you don't want that I repeat the opinions about CW which I heard there. Czech Republic is not different. Everybody involved in the breed knows what is told during the meetings but never published officially. It is the reason why none of the esteemed breeders belong to the group of CW friends.
BUT remember - it is not about blaming the dogs! Maybe we do not agree with the style of breeding but it do not influence the breeding. If CW has nice and healthy dogs they will be used. The problem now is that there are serious doubts about their origin and pedigrees.

Envoyé par Norky

something ele : could you tell me why would she make saarloose mixes with an old typed, homosigota red (it means couldn't bring other coloure) saarloose? It is totaly different type like csw.....and I'm still asking how could it happened that the saarloose alike dogs are coming just in the 2nd and 3rd generation...but not born in the kennel Crying Wolf.

Sorry but I think you missed all the topics written here. The red Wolfdogs were born in a litter where BOTH parents are Crying Wolf dogs. The parentage test was done and it confirmed that the parents are the mentioned CW dogs. Do you want to say that Lorry is a liar?

What with the white/lilac puppies - should we believe that Hanka painted them using photo shop? Do you want to say that Hanka is a liar?

What is with the masks which appear by this "line". Are they caused because the owner love to paint their dogs? Are they liars too?

Envoyé par Norky

Also question : is Edit idiot to come to mateing , pay studfee and than let the saarloose to fuck her female??????

I never suggested that it was done intentionally? I think it is possible that she even had no idea that it happen. Till the red puppies were born.
Look, we all own Wolfdogs and we all know how clever they are. And we have photos where we can see the kennels were the dogs live by CW. I'm sorry but even not very strong and not very cleaver Wolfdog will have no problem to brake out of them. The fences? I will not leave here dogs alone not even for 5 minutes. The photos convinced me that there can be something true in all the stories told last time he...

Anyway I joined the group of breeder who apply the rule of "good CsW breeders": not to use any dogs coming from kennels which breed Saarloos and CsW at the same time...


But let's go back to the topic and let's make it different - we have three main things:
- red puppies born out of two Crying Wolf dogs
- white/lilac puppies born out the CW female
- Saarloos masks appeared by some CW offsprings

For every part are responsible different genes. So to exlain it with "mutation" we must agree that we have here 3 different mutations. Hard to believe because it would be not mutation but a miracle.

Do you have any other SCIENTIFIC explanation for it? I will even leave by side the other things like the "passive" Saarloos-alike character and the problems with wide set hanging ears which some people mentioned before.
Let's try to exlain only the three things.... With no personal attacks - just pure facts....

PS. I really understand your rage as all dogs which you own are Crying Wolf dogs. But believe me - also for you it will be the best solution if the official DNA tests will be done and we will finally end the CW-story. Genes do not lie. If the parentage will be officially confirmed - GREAT!
But till now it looks so - Edith do not want to cooperate with the owners of her puppies, the official clubs seem not to be interested. Private people can not do anything even if they want...

So at the moment we have three possible casses:
1) some of the CW dogs are Saarloos mixes and the Saarloos mixes spread among our breed
OR
2) the CW dogs are pure and their owners are charged unfounded
OR
1+2) some CW dogs are mixes and the mixes spread among the breed and there are also pure CW dog whose owners are charged

Every possibility is not OK - it is why we must finally SOLVE it (do not mix it with "HIDE it").

[Margo]

Envoyé par Norky

strange: you want DNA test, but doesn't believe the results....

Because we all know know how the "private" DNA test are done. The blood is taken by the vet. ANY vet. It is enough that a friend of the breeder is a vet and it is childish easy to cheat the tests. It would be for example possible to take the blood of the Saarloos and sign it as the blood for example of Galiba. Or even send the blood of any three other dogs where it is sure that the puppy is osring of the tested parents.

I'm sorry but I heard already how the Dutch tests were cheated in similar case. And because of it I will not believe in any test which was not done on the official way - where the blood was not take by a official commission.

Envoyé par Norky

you want DNA test, but you kow to make parentage test is impossible as her old dogs, which are questionable for you are dead.

No. You do not understand it. I mean that some parents of the suspicious dogs do not live anymore. So it is NOT POSSIBLE to make the DNA test. And Edith say she made it. HOW?

In such cases there is a possibility to make tests basing on halfsibilings or similar dogs. But as Daniela wrote - it is hard and problematic. Daniela works on the university. It is strange that is is hard for her but it was easy to do for Edith.
I really do not understand which dogs were tested and HOW.

[Priska182]

Envoyé par Margo

The father of Ckinay, CPouchka and maybe some other dogs from this litter is American Wolfdog Uncas. It was written somewhere here. But the database base on the FCI pedigree information. If the pedigrees will be canceled/fixed it will be done also here.

Thank you Margo,

But, I'm still wondering... Did DNA test have been done to prove that the father is not Crying wolf Merlin? Or did the breeder admit that the real father of this litter is an American Wolfdog?

I'm lost and also feel very concerned by all this matter...

There are around 300 dogs with Galiba blood and something like 200 with Flash blood... Are they all suspects? WOW... It’s really not a good thing for our breed... And it’s only based on suppositions...
The CsV is a quite new breed I’m not so sure that it’s good thing to reduce is number of specimen only base on suppositions... I know, I'm not going to make me friends with this kind of words but it’s seens true for me. The best we can do for now, if we cannot have test from Galiba, Flash and others, is probably to oblige breeders to make DNA test on all there new litters to be accept as “Pure Breed CsV”...

[saschia]

Priska, but the saarloos inmixing can bring very unwanted characteristics into the breed - like the red color, the untypical mask, the untypical ears. All these things are faults that should remove the animal from breeding. OK, we know about the genetics of the red color, so we are able to take it away in few generations, if we really want, although it also meand great reduction of population. But what about the other traits which we have no idea about? How can we get rid of them if we allow spreading of mixes in our population? Not speakin about the character, saarloos are nice dogs, but not working breed, if some people claim that even now the CSW are losing their working abilities what will happen if we use mixes in the population? It will change the breed completely.

[yukidomari]

Envoyé par saschia

It will change the breed completely.

and it might give other perhaps not-great breeders some excuse to do some 'experiments', as long as they can keep it hidden for long enough. to me there isn't a statute of limitations on what will be registered as purebred - the dog either is, or isn't, and the only exception is when an official body approves otherwise.

[Priska182]

Envoyé par saschia

Priska, but the saarloos inmixing can bring very unwanted characteristics into the breed - like the red color, the untypical mask, the untypical ears. All these things are faults that should remove the animal from breeding. OK, we know about the genetics of the red color, so we are able to take it away in few generations, if we really want, although it also meand great reduction of population. But what about the other traits which we have no idea about? How can we get rid of them if we allow spreading of mixes in our population? Not speakin about the character, saarloos are nice dogs, but not working breed, if some people claim that even now the CSW are losing their working abilities what will happen if we use mixes in the population? It will change the breed completely.

I totally agree with you Saschia, but we're pointing with the finger on a lot of dogs without real proof...

[Vaiva]

Envoyé par Priska182

I totally agree with you Saschia, but we're pointing with the finger on a lot of dogs without real proof...

I am totally sure, that it is much better not to breed suspicious dogs TEMPORARY, than to deal with even bigger number of offsprings later, if the suspicions are really truth...

[Mikael]

Envoyé par Vaiva

I am totally sure, that it is much better not to breed suspicious dogs TEMPORARY, than to deal with even bigger number of offsprings later, if the suspicions are really truth...

Yes and I think all breeders think like this to ???

Best regards / Mikael

[Priska182]

Envoyé par CDaniela

Our breed is loaded with inbreeding. Variability of the breed (genes) is very small. Dogs are genetically very similar. This is not a problem for "human race" (for example).
The only reliable test is paternity and maternity.

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

So Damiela is wright and it's our only possibility to reveal the true?

[SusanneDrage]

I´m the lookey owner of a dog, she is everything I can ask for.
I haven´t been on Wolfdog.org in about a half year I think.
And now this evening I have some time to look inhere.
Now this visit have given me a bad feeling.
My reason to buy a CSW is that I always will work with old original animals, there are few of in the hole world (genetic preserving) I think in my bad english
Now I hope someone can tell me, do I now have a mixdog or a CSW.
My dogs name is Fanthagiro Crying Wolf, what do I have to do, so I can get peace in my head again
I do not like the way some of you talk to each other, It is not good for the breed, and do you not care for bad publisity you give of the forum. the best for CSW will be an official DNA-test of all dogs.
I´m not a breeder, but in my seach for a good dog I have seen a lot of dogs with big, big ears, and not the "right" Wolfy look.
For me Fantha look all right, but is it all right under the fur.
Sorry my bad english, I hope you can understand it

[Rona]

I've been reading the thread and have one very sad reflection:

Why can't the affected owners/breeders count on their Kennel Clubs' help and get support from these organizations in such case and similar ones? Why is FCI so impotent? Has the Slovakian Breed Club, the breed guarant, done anything to press the KC and FCI so far?

The kynological institutions set the rules, but when it comes to their implementation and execution, don't care at all, (so why should the owners and breeders follow them?) Still they take money for membership, shows, registering matchings, litters, etc. etc.

I wonder if sending many letters to their local KC AND Hungarian KC AND FCI by worried owners/breeders would help make them act... If one person posts, it may be disregarded, but if a few hundered affected owners/breeders wrote and requested action and official DNA checking? Could they keep ignoring them?

Just an idea, maybe naive...