good training/behaviour young CSV

[TimoleonVieta]

Originally Posted by Rona

I see you belong to the group who enjoy finding things out for themselves.

this is true for many people, & surely those that ask for advice & then seem to ignore it can be the most infuriating? Certainly I am guilty of this. Sadly the advice must in a way become more logical & cohesive than the impulse to do things my own way.

As a youngster when one is critised too much early on & not heeded then he may become self willed & a little blind to the reason of others. Critical that any advice other than his own could be a poison. Later he finds himself in much trouble if the guardians cannot recover the situation before adulthood.

To try to know oneself, is I think, a little help at least in overcoming these things. People like me must do everything they can to listen carefully & dismiss judiciously. But to not clutter ones head so much, the heart can't think.

But I digress..I am sure you are playing & I thankyou for your good advice, I would never forgive myself if she got hurt due to her own cleverness.

Originally Posted by Rona

Good luck with your girl and have fun discoverning the "more" of her.

Cheers, I will smile through the tears!

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Hello TimoleonVieta (what an interesting name ),

Female to female hostility is not unheard of in the breed so, were you to get your collie too, just be prepared for the odd time when they will not be friends. The rest of the time, they will get on brilliantly and your CsV will be so happy for the company (4 legged).

Really appreciate you sharing this I think my situation may end up very similar in the next few years with CSV. It is good to know that Scrap was introduced after Shadow, as were the others you must be a kind soul! I have been worried that it would be very hard that way; CSV then collie, but no, this has helped I think it best I concentrate on CSV alone first, reassured that a new introduction later can be positive for all sides.

I first lived for three years with my collie & her entire pack on the moors before we left together. It was interesting that only my collie bonded with me truly. Despite me offering her brother the same care & exercise it was like he & the 6 or 7 others realised they could not interfere with this bond. How does this work with your pack, is your bond closest with Shadow, Scrap, or equal with both dogs? & has the bond with your first two remained unaffected by the attention you give the others?

With my collie it had repercussions, when they got a chance they tried to kill her quite early on. I had to reorganise the pack leadership quickly & she soon became the alfa between 8 & 10 months old. She became fearless in life & once tried to protect me from a speeding car!

Originally Posted by Fede86

Nevertheless, I guess collecting other people's experiences may be helpful.

some good & positive experiences may have a place. It is certainly helping me to find a more balanced view.

Originally Posted by Fede86

About "training", I wouldn't know since I never did that seriously (only for fun)... personally, I only cared about "education". I ask very "little" to my dog (to be able to walk at heel, with or without a leash on, to stop when I say to stop and to come when I call him) but I tried to make his response to those few requests reliable in more and more difficult situations.

Thankyou for the advice, I find it very interesting that the commands were simple but situations gradually increased for him to cope with. It seems that this way he takes the small things you ask very seriously & that they maintain good reason for him. He sounds like a fantastic & faithful friend!

I also do not like encouraging a dog with food, merely that they will like there own & take pleasure from it. In training & learning I need to reserve judgement & plan both ways depending on how I find her young character & how well we can relate & learn without a chicken in my pocket & a car full of stinking tripe

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

I also do not like encouraging a dog with food, merely that they will like there own & take pleasure from it. In training & learning I need to reserve judgement & plan both ways depending on how I find her young character & how well we can relate & learn without a chicken in my pocket & a car full of stinking tripe

From my very limited experience (I only own one Czech WD, so I don't want to generalize) I think if you like a dog you can't just relate to simply through a bunch of positive and negative reinforcements, you will probably enjoy this breed.

I find that my dog likes the idea of "collaboration" for a common interest much more than he likes to do something that in his head has no meaning for a bite of chicken. The fact that he is able to reach his goal by doing his part in a team play is extremely rewarding for him and I believe it strengthen the bond as well.

[TimoleonVieta]

Originally Posted by Fede86

I find that my dog likes the idea of "collaboration" for a common interest much more than he likes to do something that in his head has no meaning for a bite of chicken. The fact that he is able to reach his goal by doing his part in a team play is extremely rewarding for him and I believe it strengthen the bond as well.

I watched your beautiful videos, they have brought back many memories. When you walk alone with him, he constantly looks back at you. He seems so interested in the world around him, but no more so than checking you are with him.

The dog is so free within himself & still dedicated to you. Maybe the best number is two, one man & his dog. It is making me wonder if I am making the right choice to want a bitch of this breed more than a boy

Can I ask a couple more things? Was it exactly 60 days when you took him with you? & do you know if he was the dominant alpha male of his litter?

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

Can I ask a couple more things? Was it exactly 60 days when you took him with you? & do you know if he was the dominant alpha male of his litter?

If I remember correctly, he was 61 days old. I wouldn't know about alphas, but he was quite "bossy" with his littermates... I also remember he growled to his mom when she tried to scold him

Originally Posted by Rona

1. vlcaks are meant to teach their owners humility - and thus people who have more distance to themselves and are able to take things with humour are more prone to enjoy their vlcak pups. They take a lot from their owners, but always give more, that's why it's so easy to forgive them all their mischiefs. When they're young every day's a bit like this: General principle: never boast about a young vlcak because this is asking for trouble

2. They are exteremly rational in their "reasoning", though the reasoning is not necessarily human-like. Thus the ability to understands what the vlcak wants to tell you is crucial for training. The owner must remember that in case of CSVs communication is a two-way process to much greater extent than in case of other breeds. Vlcaks never destroy things for fun - it is one of the methods they communiate things to their owners - a signal that the communiation channel must be improved. They learn by doing, so whenever they do something bad, don't give them any chance to repeat that.

4 If the owner manages to build a sound relationship with the dog, the dog will behave in a rational way in genuine circumstances. GSD trainers often say that CSVs are dumb because they don't obey 100%. But then, why should they? They have their own brains and know when obedinece is vital, and when they're only doing things for fun and sport. That's why it's good if a vclak has a job - does something which is imporant for the owner and "genuine" in the dog's perception.

I pretty much agree with Rona's picture of the breed, especially with these three points...

I think their "rationality" makes them extremely good at learning from real life experiences, and also makes them "wiser" as they live, learn and make mistakes. Personally, this is something I absolutely love about my dog.

I believe there are some breeds whose behavior is very conditioned by their genetics and by what they are selectively bred for, and this makes them very "instinctive" in some circumstances, they shut down their brain, and this makes more difficult to modify some parts of their behavior. For example there are some breeds that are genetically inclined to be aggressive with other dogs, breeds whose prey drive is stronger than their reasoning, or breeds who don't have any sense of danger and self preservation when they are doing what they are bred to do.

I would say (at least from what I can see with my dog) Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are less "instinctive" and more rational in a lot of situations, and even when you may not be able to control them, they basically control themselves (depending on what experience taught them). I find this extremely useful in "real life", because if you manage to expose them to the right experiences in the right way, they can become very "trustworthy".

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Fede86

I would say (at least from what I can see with my dog) Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are less "instinctive" and more rational in a lot of situations, and even when you may not be able to control them, they basically control themselves (depending on what experience taught them). I find this extremely useful in "real life", because if you manage to expose them to the right experiences in the right way, they can become very "trustworthy".

I agree, with one reservation. It works like you've described it, provided the dog learns new things gradually and internalizes them - i.e. obeys because he chooses to follow pack pinciples and finds such behaviour rewarding, (a pup gets treats, when adult - is usually praised + sometimes gets treats).

Any training shorcuts, like prong collars, physical penalities, electric fences, etc. IMO do not work for vlcaks. I mean even if they do - when the owner is not looking the dog does what he wants. It works exactly like with kids - aggressive behaviour is the best lesson of aggressive behaviour!

Though positive training methods are the best it doesn't mean that CSV are to be trained only by them. Negative ones IMO should be rather based on signalling the dog verbally and nonverbally the owner's discontent and even genuine anger. It must be sincere, because it's hard to fool them.

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Rona

Though positive training methods are the best it doesn't mean that CSV are to be trained only by them. Negative ones IMO should be rather based on signalling the dog verbally and nonverbally the owner's discontent and even genuine anger. It must be sincere, because it's hard to fool them.

Shadow knows when she has done something wrong if I stand with my hands on my hips and look stern - I don't have to say a word, she instantly stops the 'bad' behaviour and sits until I relax my posture. Then she comes to me and 'kisses' my hand.

Like Rona says, you must mean it with the reproach - they know if it is half hearted and it will soon lose the effect.

[Fede86]

Originally Posted by Rona

I agree, with one reservation. It works like you've described it, provided the dog learns new things gradually and internalizes them - i.e. obeys because he chooses to follow pack pinciples and finds such behaviour rewarding, (a pup gets treats, when adult - is usually praised + sometimes gets treats).

Any training shorcuts, like prong collars, physical penalities, electric fences, etc. IMO do not work for vlcaks. I mean even if they do - when the owner is not looking the dog does what he wants. It works exactly like with kids - aggressive behaviour is the best lesson of aggressive behaviour!

Exactly! I think we talked about this in a recent topic about Cesar Millan's methods: if you modify your dog's behavior with physical correction and inhibition, without changing his state of mind, once your control weavers the dog goes back to his bad behavior (or more often to an even "worst" behavior).

I think this goes for every dog, but for extremely intelligent and sensitive breeds like the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog it is even more true and evident.

As you said, they need to "choose". They have to be "convinced" of what you are asking them to do, and they have to be comfortable in doing so, otherwise they won't be reliable and consistent.

[AMERICANI]

Yes, I think I have one of each also.. and of those which did "negative" things as puppies (puppies get into trouble - this is a fact of life), those same dogs are my most motivated to do things.

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by TimoleonVieta

I first lived for three years with my collie & her entire pack on the moors before we left together. It was interesting that only my collie bonded with me truly. Despite me offering her brother the same care & exercise it was like he & the 6 or 7 others realised they could not interfere with this bond. How does this work with your pack, is your bond closest with Shadow, Scrap, or equal with both dogs? & has the bond with your first two remained unaffected by the attention you give the others?

The bond we have with Shadow is a special one - she is a CsV after all - but our bond with the other dogs is still strong. There is always a little jealousy if one or another is getting affection, but there is enough of that to go around . Shadow sees it as her place to reprimand the others if we have told them off (in particular Newman who tends to go a bit 'deaf' on our walks, he never used to come when called...) - her reprimand is short and swift and never aggressive. They have their own order within the pack and, as long as we observe this order, they are all very happy and contented . It will be interesting to see how things alter once the puppies get older and start to try to find their place.