Is the CSV dog right for me???

[Tassle]

I am fairly knew to the breed - my boy is a cross, but I am a trainer and have a fair amount of experience with different breeds and types.

Knowing what I do about these dogs, I do not think your home situation sounds best for a dog of this type. Living as an only dog in a Kennel however many days (first post was 5 - second 3)a week could be your first big potential problem. These dogs like company and would not do well (IMHO) left to their own devices in a kennel.

[Nebulosa]

I had 4 dogs of my own before I get my first CzW, my first dog was Beagle who died with 10 years, I had a Rottweiler for 9 years and when my wolfdog arrived I had a Beagle with 2 years old and a Buldogue Campeiro with 1,5 years.
I've worked as dog behaviourist for years dealing with what we can call "problematic dogs", with real traumatized animals due bad owners or accidents, I also worked with some of the few wolfdogs (mixes, not CzW) living in my country that time.

Even being an experienced person with dogs I had hard moments with my CzWs, I have them for about 5 years right now, having 6 of them yet I have hard moments with this breed. We can say that each dog is unique, but I can tell you without fear of being wrong that CzW are more.
A dog changes your life but a CzW changes much more, mainly you will not have several options, that you would have with a normal dog, with a CzW. You will travel who will stay with your dog? A normal dog you can let in a dog hotel and a CzW? You cant, there are huge chances of them to jump the fences and run away searching for you.
It's only a simply example of differences, because it extend even to some veterinary procedures, like in anesthesia, sometimes even feeding.

When I talked about house breaking I think you had a quite simplistic view of it, and I dont guilt you for this, people will only believe what CzWs can make after see it with their own eyes, before it all breeders are liers who does not want to sell a pup to someone else trying to make people scared telling mere stories about what a CzW could do in dream world... but it's not like that, they are real beasts if you dont pay attention, they will not only destruct your shoes, but they will destruct a whole wall or put a door down. They will not only dig the garden, they can make real galleries bellow your house trying to enter. You can take it when they are starting to do it or even when they are studying a way to do such things and avoid problems, as you can simply dont see what's going on and not be able to avoid a tragedy.

Originally Posted by nask

The only other dog i would consider is the German Shepard or the Czech Border dog, again for the intelligence of the dog, its obedience and the fact that they are good with family members.

And here is when I confirms you're doing the wrong decision even in think about CzW as a possibility of a dog for you.
As I told you, CzW are very intelligent dogs, but it goes exactly in the contrary direction of being obedient. Why the dog would obey you? what is the sense of he make that command you're asking for? what he will win doing that? That's the difference between an inteligent dog and an obedient animal.

Why dont you start with a GSD, and after you get some experience with him, training and living with the dog, then you start to think about CzW, even giving a time for you to know personaly some animals of this breed to really be sure that it's one CzW you wish to live for the next 15 years.
Meet the breed personaly is completely different of only read about it.

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by Tassle

left to their own devices in a kennel.

There wouldn't be a kennel! (Shed)

[nask]

Hello, i see ur based in london and was wondering how much space you have in your garden for the CSV to roam free? lol yes the shed, made of breeze blocks and not wood + with double glazed windows, its more of a pimped out room then a shed

[vila]

You have to understand that "obedience" is a human trait, or a quality that a human looks for in a dog, therefore the GSD was "tailored" to human specifications. It does not imply intelligence. "Tricks" are not necessarily an indicator for intelligence. The wolf however has to be able to survive, intelligence shows in tactics, opportunism, observation, relying on sense etc. So when we say intelligence for a CsV, we're talking about that primal intelligence. For a GSD I would say it shows signs of (or excels at) what we humans consider intelligence or obedience. You can sometimes see a growing CsV just looking at you and thinking and studying you, like you were in a zoo and the roles were reversed - the animal would study you for instinctual and primal reasons, not to please you

For your main question I would answer approx 2 hours of off leash walking. This entails playing with other dogs or with you, or running/cycling for an hour should do it. This is just the main walk in the afternoon, the dog would also need 15 morning and evening toilet walk. I could not do this alone, my sister also helps with the walks or can take over when I can't. That's also why our situation works and in that sense we are blessed to have the opportunity to own a Vlcak, and so is she because I am certain she has a very good life.

I will admit my Vila is my first dog, she does not have the option of a garden, so walks are important. For her that is a perfect situation, she is always indoors with us and that feels logical to her - to be with her pack and not left alone. This situation only works for us, because there is always someone home and the dog is never alone. If however we do go somewhere where Vila can't come, we have only a few friends with who we do daily walks with their dogs, so we trust each other and babysit each other's dogs when needed.

New time owner, it's possible but you have to have a looooooooooot of room for improvisation - forget the plans for the shed, you also need at least 2 or 3 contingency plans. And all the family members have to be in it for the long run 100%. I'm glad to see you doing good research ahead of time. Don't make a decision for or against too quickly. Try to arrange a meet with a CsV, only take good first hand advice, be weary of dog schools's advice. Most have never even met a Vlcak and they try to teach them completely the same as they would any other pet doggy, generally doesn't work though

[tupacs2legs]

Good point about mature csv's and strange dogs...so many people new to the breed become 'expert(I have only lived with the breed for 4 years)and advise people 'yes,great with other dogs' they are sometimes lulled into false security as they mature late and change a lot,you have to be prepared for a dog that may not mix well,although it seems friends made while young stay forever friends

Also re the 30min jog.... If your dog knows this is the norm they will 'single track' it(use the least but most effcient energy) so self regulate like the husky does....it won't cut it for mental or physical 'tiredness'... You have to be more inventive or at least more varied than that

Your shed may be a penthouse but u don't live in there too

And yes they study you,watch you and learn...one of mine has become an expert at opening the dog gate which u have to squeeze,pull up and push.....all by watching me! And doors? U will need to turn the handles upside down

[nask]

is it weird that the more i learn about the behaviour and the intelligence of the CSV the more i want one....... i love the fact that it is studying me as i study it.... that way we both learn about each others boundaries and learn to respect them from the very beginning.... i think i may not be explaining myself very well ref the shed, it is only a place for the CSV to stay warm in or sleep in..... the door will be controlled by the CSV it will at no point be locked in the shed, my garden is a L shaped garden which the CSV can roam freely (admittedly its not a massive garden) I live with my mother and my wife, my mother is always at home so at no point will the dog be on its own, i work 15 minutes from where i live so i can on a daily basis come home for lunch and take the dog for a afternoon walk if need be... with ref to obedience i meant recall so the dog comes to me when called, i dont want it to shake hands, play dead or roll over, its a dog not a circus animal. i mainly want the dog for companionship and the fact that it will fit in with my active lifestyle. i have always wanted a dog since i was a child, plus i prefer the company of an animal over most people i know im weird, lol.... especially after returning from pakistan where my dad has a farm, with bulls, buffalo, cows, chickens, lambs, dogs and cats, so whenever i go to visit him my first question is where is the dog and how healthy is it, i then immediately feed the dog even though it might be barking and snarling at me at first.. i earn its trust and by the end of my holiday its my best friend :-) i fell for wlf like dogs when i travelled to iceland and went sledging with a pack of huskys, man they were awesome, at first i did not approach them because of all the negative things i read about them being pack animals and only responding to the master, yadlah, yadlah, yadlah.. but after speaking with the chap who ran the sledging i approached the pack on my knees so they did not see me as a threat and i was at one point sat around the entire pack :-) and one in particular was my favourite due to her cheekiness and she knew exactly how to get the attention she wanted.

please see the link http://raksa.certik.cz/english-1/first-year

i found this of great help, the owner had never previously had a dog and this worked to his advantage, he did study Konrad Lorenz, world-renowned ethologist books on the behaviour of dogs beforehand.

Can i ask what you mean by "you also need at least 2 or 3 contingency plans."

i apologise if i write too much or if i am asking for too much of your time... i appreciate each and every response, your knowledge and experience is worth its weight in gold...

[Rona]

Hi,
There have been a few similar threads, e.g.

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22686

and

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17300

I hope they will clear out some of your concerns

[vila]

By contingency plans I meant that you may work out a plan for your CsV and it might work "on paper". You have to be prepared if the things don't work out accordingly... it may be very uncomfortable for a dog to be in a shed. You can put all the blankets and pillows you want, but a dog, especially a Vclak can feel trapped, so it may come to the point that it will destroy you shed. No problem for a Vlcak if it's made out of wood or it can start howling all night so the neighbors start complaining, it can be very traumatizing for a dog. A kennel should least have open doors, so a dog can choose to sleep out in the air and be aware of it's surroundings. A dog may end up sleeping somewhere near you, or you'll have to build a more appropriate kennel. If you're planning to get a male, the weight and force may be too much for a smaller woman or an older person...

I know you will probably respond with answers to all of this, but by that you will be only confirming that you missed the point ...if you know what I mean? The fact is you don't know what kind of dog you'll get (if you get a CsV). It may be very shy and scared, or independent and self confident. A single plan cannot cover all types of characters, you should expect the unexpected with a CsV. Like others said, owning a CsV can mean adapting your life around the needs of the dog, at least to some extent. And that means adapting while the dog matures and grows, not making some arrangements before the dog even gets there and assumimg it will be ok I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I still have much to learn. But when I think about how I envisioned the life with a Vlcak before owning one and now that I see how everything is turning out... man it's a whole different ball game hahah, but we found a way and that's what matters to me. I'm in no position to advise you on any definite decisions, I'll leave that to more experienced owners. My input is simply that of a newbie with a 2 and a half year old Vila and a veeeeeery steep learning curve

[nask]

Rona, thank you for the links very interesting readings...