What kind of dog is this - mixes by Passo del Lupo?

[wilupi!]

you are exaggerating,i have a dog of"passo del lupo"and i'm very satisfied of it!!!!

mutara don't look like Csw ,not passo del lupo's dogs in generals.

[wolfin]

Hi i thinks she will say about dogs, hes living in fabio kennels not about dogs from hes kennel.
i know dogs from PDL with exam, but this dogs not owner Fabio, but others people.

or.... not? (and me english is bad

Napisał wilupi

you are exaggerating,i have a dog of"passo del lupo"and i'm very satisfied of it!!!!

mutara don't look like Csw ,not passo del lupo's dogs in generals.

[Deima]

I ment that dogs that live in that farm, and i very respect people which work with their dogs(that touch not only CSW owners)

[massimo]

Napisał Deima

I ment that dogs that live in that farm, and i very respect people which work with their dogs(that touch not only CSW owners)

Just some information so we all understand what is going on.
"Fabio" writing here is not FABIO CASELLI another Fabio husband of Laura and collaborator in some way of Passo del Lupo.

I honestly was surprised to read that somebody sent a request for Publicity of litter AlaskaxLion because whatever is the origin of dog "alaska" (still a mystery to my knowledge), I know Fabio Caselli personally and I really couldn't imagine he would SELL such dog as a wolfdog.

As for PDL "farm" dogs, I really invite all to speak about things we know and not that we SUPPOSE.
Unfortunately when you have so many dogs it's very difficult to have a good character, because time for socialization is not always enough.
In general I do not like it when breeders have too many dogs as you say because of the "socialization" problem and the lack of time to deal with all dogs.
That is why in some cases (i wish they were more) the breeder PDL asks some friends (i have been one of them) to "grow up" and "socialize" some dogs for them allowing the character to open up.
So Daima in general I personally agree with you, I prefer seeing less dogs and more time for socialization. I have some friends and I don't really agree with everything they do or say.

I am very sorry of those dogs And let the owner of that kennel writte to FCI to recognise his dogs as a new breed because they don't look like CSW

I suppose you are speaking about the non certiifed dogs and not ALL dogs coming from PDL, Farm dogs or not; just because they are "farm dogs" it doesn't meant they are not CSW...

Last thing: although there are many dogs in the kennel, i can ASSURE you that some of these dogs have fantastic characters, socialized and happy and I would take them at home even if they are adult because excellent characters.
They are not the majority of course but these dogs are really special because with good character notwithstanding the surrounding conditions.

And, just for you, some photos of my terrible dog coming from "Mutara" Kennel, as an example of PDL bad CSW ...

Bad Standard:
10 months old


2.5 years old



4 years old


Bad Character
Some strangers visiting my house for the first time...

[massimo]

Sorry, i made a mistake, can an adm. change the photo of 2.5 years.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3.../oliverboy.jpg
thanks
massimo

[Pavel]

Dear Massimo,
its no discussion about other thongs as about the illegaly crossing of Mutara and CsW. Is no sense to discuss here about anything else.
Fabio Caselli false the dates for registration and put the puppies into register. Other thing is, that Mutaras were stopped in CZ, because it was registered same way as by Fabio - false the dates. Dont discuss about character, exterior etc., basic is, that somebody registered dogs illegaly. Its the main problem, which must be solved.
Today situation is, how I wrote above. Because Fabio done such thing, nobody will have in future 100% guarentee, if buy from him or from breeders, who breeding on PDL wolfdogs. From today every puppies, which will have PDL (born after 2006) in pedigree, can be hybrid and not CsW. Its a fact.

[massimo]

Napisał Pavel

Dear Massimo,
its no discussion about other thongs as about the illegaly crossing of Mutara and CsW. Is no sense to discuss here about anything else
...
Dont discuss about character, exterior etc.....

Strange though that you mention it NOW after my post (which of course I posted deliberately in such silly way) but you didn't mention anything after this post (which of course was the cause fo my reply...)

Well, i saw Passo de Lupo web page and found more information in other places, and sorry but this is farm of dogs but not kennel And i understant why these dogs dont have any psichic test and any working test, farm animals goes only for the meat not for work o for plesure, i am very sorry of those dogs And let the owner of that kennel writte to FCI to recognise his dogs as a new breed because they don't look like CSW....

I hope you don't want to say that one can write only to attack but not to defend the work of a breeder...OR DO YOU??
Some people and yourself are saying that you can no longer trust PDL as a kennel because of this "supposed" mutara experiment, that's putting in doubt the entire breeding work just because 1 "doubtfull" litter.
I would agree with you if I see many dogs from this litter being used by PDL and many puppies being sold in this way...
At the moment the only litters i see are coming from the world champion Issar Kollarov Dvor....

Fabio Caselli false the dates for registration and put the puppies into register.

Are you sure?

What is false of writing a LIR from a dog without pegidgree and making puppies?
Isn't declaring "FALSE" data illegal? I don't see any ILLEGAL thing done, maybe unwise or not correct for our breed and morally discussable, but not illegal.
Maybe i'm wrong so I invite you to give me better information that i don't know, but if i mate my dog with a whippet and the puppies LOOK like a wolfdog and get "very good" in one dog show, I can start a LIR and after 3 generations get a LOI, this would be legal but really a nonsense, do you get my point?

Today situation is, how I wrote above. Because Fabio done such thing, nobody will have in future 100% guarentee, if buy from him or from breeders, who breeding on PDL wolfdogs. From today every puppies, which will have PDL (born after 2006) in pedigree, can be hybrid and not CsW. Its a fact.

Again i don't understand:
Today there is ONE litter made with a LIR (not real pedigree yet) that can become a LOI (real pedigree) only after 3 generations.
If the dogs differ a lot from a CSW, the LIR should be somehow stopped.
Nobody is selling a dog with documents from a father that is not the real father or a mother that is not the real mother.
IF a buyer (i hate speaking about dogs as objects to be bought...) wants a dog from PDL Free from "suspected" hybrid, he can still do it.
There are strict rules about this and today DNA for ALL champion reproducers are obligatory. I know many dogs from PDL who are reproducing have given their DNA to the database.
If I want to be sure all i have to do is check the DNA and maybe buy from a litter with parents who have given DNA to database.
All i am asking here is to speak about things we are sure of, let's not base our statements on suppositions or "false information".
Can you imagine that because of your statement nobody should take a son of Issar coming from PDL?? it would really be wrong.

My personal position??
I don't think our breed needs a canadian wolf hybrid to be improved, and, until i see results, i do not think I will take a dog coming from this mixed line.
I think buyers and people should always be informed of what they are buying, and can choose as they want.
Before I choose a dog, I look at the pedigree.
I even "invested" lately on a mating to be done just because I wanted such litter to exist, because I am curious to see what will come out from 2 fantastic wolfdogs with 2 fantastic bloodlines.
If all breeders followed the example of a few who make thousands of KM just to use a male from a different bloodline from what usually is around, and not use only the dogs coming from very near and from within our own country, maybe our breed will improve and without necessarily using an "experiment"....
massimo

[Navarre]

Napisał massimo

Can you imagine that because of your statement nobody should take a son of Issar coming from PDL?? it would really be wrong.

I think not. As everybody can see, he isn't an affordable breeder anymore: who fakes one time, can fake every time.

[Huan]

Last weekend in Slovakia we have been told that the removal of Mutaras from Czech Register was also influenced by high authorities in FCI and that the ban of Mutara registration is WORLDWIDE !!! So if at any point there should any Mutara be registered in Italy then this is made ILLEGAL. If somebody gets any hard proofs that any of the LIR registered dogs is Mutara or its offspring then the breeder has to count with serious consequences and registration of all the dogs and their offsprings will be removed.

[fizban]

Hello,

Well, we have 2 replies from the club, one is totally not useful, the other one I have no idea, we haven't been told anything yet. I'll post it if it's useful or not plain dumb.

However, as for the first reply, it looks like they couldn't care less about this mate with a dog with no known (official) history. If anyone inside the slovakian club, or anyone else with knowledge on the matter can help us with any kind of input it would be GREATLY appreciated. I've made an attempt in getting in touch with someone close to the slovakian club, but I haven't got any reply so far.

Keep in mind that this is NOT an Italian issue anymore since some of those "puppies", like it or not, are ALREADY outside of Italy.

[fabio..]

Napisał fabio..

Altra incredibile bugia.

Ho certezza (e sai che è vero) che nessuno ha mai chiesto a Wolfdog di pubblicare la cucciolata di Lion x Alaska.

I cuccioli di quella cucciolata sono stati dedotti e inseriti in Wolfdog senza il consenso dei proprietari.

Smettila di pubblicare falsità o di fare affermazioni di cui non hai prove.

Margo, please stop to change my message !!!!!!
As everybody can see I reply to a your different message regarding the publicity of the litter and not to what upon written.

[wolfin]

Uuuu, wonderful, FABIO You cann speak and wright in eglish lanquage. Super.
regards

[Wolfsirius]

Margo wrote: "Saarloos alike crossings registeres as 'S'-litter Passo del Lupo... "

i just wondering that is there used SWH in those crossings?
If, who have SWH in Italy (there is not many in Italy, i guess)
(i know, need only one if want to use) but still. I guess, there is no SWH mixed in PDL dogs. Is only my guess, does somebody have correct information about that?

-Suski

[ste]

And...from what i saw, all participants to serramazzoni where real csw with real pedigrees...no "s.pdl" litters!

Hi massimo, same "s.pdl" litters were in the book of the expo but not in place(Sangria, Seiko..) but there were one that was in place but not in the ring, have you seen the man dressed like an indian with 3 dogs?I suppose that the young male is one of them,but they call with another name..
well, he looks like a csw...
Stefano

[Margo]

Napisał massimo

all my picks are available for you margo, my picks are patrimony of the breed, therefore open to everybody!!

THANKS!

Napisał massimo

I have other picks that i was kindly asked not to puublish from a couple of breeders. I am not obliged but i respect therefore i keep them on my pc together with many other "personal" pics. It's a shame...they don't understand that lack of knowledge is always bad for the breed.

No problem... But to be honest I would not care with the words of the breeders - the OWNERS are much more important... We had already cases where breeders asked us to remove photos of some dogs from their kennels (photos were send by the owners of the dogs - not made by us or anybody else). They said the dogs are "anti-advertising" for their kennels... I do not care about their opinion - so far the owners LIKE their dogs and just want to share their photos we will publish them... NONE of the breeders will make any CENSORSHIP here on Wolfdog...

Napisał Wolfsirius

Margo wrote: "Saarloos alike crossings registeres as 'S'-litter Passo del Lupo... "
i just wondering that is there used SWH in those crossings?

Of course not... It was ment ''...
'S'-litter can be called neither Saarloos Wolfhound nor Czechoslovakian Wolfdog... They are just mutts. I wrote "Saaloos alike" because they look more like Saarloos than CzW. Also basing on the "origin" they are closer pretty close to Saarloos Wonfhound but have NOTHING to do with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.. And the differences are VERY GOOD visible...

It is a pitty that italian law has a hole which allows to take mixes of unknown origin and breed with them...

[massimo]

Napisał ste

Hi massimo, same "s.pdl" litters were in the book of the expo but not in place(Sangria, Seiko..) but there were one that was in place but not in the ring, have you seen the man dressed like an indian with 3 dogs?I suppose that the young male is one of them,but they call with another name..
well, he looks like a csw...
Stefano

Dear stefano, please bring evidence to withstand your statement, because I will bring you evidence that what you say is NOT TRUE.
There was NO S.PDL litter at the show.
I have seen 4 out of 6 of them so I know quite well what they look like.
They should be sons of Lion Pdl and Alaska
The dog we saw, owned by the "indian dressed" people, was younger (less than 1 year) looked a lot like miky pdl head (even owner said it was son of miki but he didn't know much of mother) but stronger and very tipical.
He was short and quite long and had several white nails (lack of pigmentation, small defect)
I do not see any "sign" of being s.pdl and even no sign of being a "mutt"...he looked more like a csw and not the best looking either.
The S.pdl i saw had ALL a perfect structure and perfect proportions...better than any average CSW.
massimo

[z Peronówki]

Napisał massimo

The S.pdl i saw had ALL a perfect structure and perfect proportions...better than any average CSW.

Sure... But I know many other breeds which have better structure and proportion than some CzW but still other breeds and also 'S' PDL are not CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS. And it is also visible... I will say again - for me Sangia will be better Saarloos than CzW... Maybe it is possible to re-register him and sign other breed in the pedigree?



Honestly I'm very dissapointed about these mixes - I really though they will be MUCH more wolfish... Mixes were though to IMPROVE our breed but to be honest - WHO will use such MIX which is worser looking than REAL CzW? I don't think ANYBODY will risk his opinion as responsible breeder and use such mix for breeding.... Anyway NONE of the serious breeders I know...

WHY? Because so far I must say I saw many PUREBREED CzW which have 100x better body and 500x more wolfish heards than these mixes...

[ste]

Napisał massimo

Dear stefano, please bring evidence to withstand your statement, because I will bring you evidence that what you say is NOT TRUE.
There was NO S.PDL litter at the show.
I have seen 4 out of 6 of them so I know quite well what they look like.
They should be sons of Lion Pdl and Alaska
The dog we saw, owned by the "indian dressed" people, was younger (less than 1 year) looked a lot like miky pdl head (even owner said it was son of miki but he didn't know much of mother) but stronger and very tipical.
He was short and quite long and had several white nails (lack of pigmentation, small defect)
I do not see any "sign" of being s.pdl and even no sign of being a "mutt"...he looked more like a csw and not the best looking either.
The S.pdl i saw had ALL a perfect structure and perfect proportions...better than any average CSW.
massimo

This is strange, I've heard Fabio making comparison between Sangria and that dog,and not with the owner of the dog, do you know the name of the dog?it's a PDL?
Bye Stefano

[massimo]

Napisał Margo

Honestly I'm very dissapointed about these mixes - I really though they will be MUCH more wolfish... Mixes were though to IMPROVE our breed but to be honest - WHO will use such MIX which is worser looking than REAL CzW? I don't think ANYBODY will risk his opinion as responsible breeder and use such mix for breeding.... Anyway NONE of the serious breeders I know...

WHY? Because so far I must say I saw many PUREBREED CzW which have 100x better body and 500x more wolfish heards than these mixes...

sorry Margo, I already spoke to you about this in Lazne...how many S. litter dogs did you really see??
If you speak about Sangria alone..then maybe I could even agree with you but...not if you speak about the entire litter, sorry.

I will make a small example, just to help you understand:
do you remember Reggio Emilia Bonitation?? were the scandal all started??
many people started shouting scandal after seeing bonitation made to Sangria, a honestly untypical CSW.
Ehm...but during that bonitation there were Sangria, Sanika and Seiko (according to official data given by italian club site) and, unofficially I know there was a fourth one too...
How many people "recognised" the other 3? not many, almost nobody...
why?? because they were more typical CSW than many others which I could mention if I wanted but I respect their breeders...however more typical in head and structure than many CSW today!
So...I would be cautious with the info you give, if you do not really have all info yourself; it would simpy be a misleading information.
I respect you and all the efforts you make and also many statements but "maybe" your statements would be different (more specific on Sangria alone and not on the whole litter) if you saw them.

The Italian Club posted some pics tacken during Reggio Emilia Bonitation
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco....ini/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.
and my friend Kika was there too and has her pics published:
http://www.pilamaya.it/album%20bonit...r07/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics and a couple of "undirect" pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.

I wonder why nobody pointed these dogs out?? I know, because it is very very difficult to tell the difference!!
And, allow me to say, I am not experienced like you but...the F2 at the beginning of our breed looked like german shephards...
nothing like CSW so....i disagree..IF these dogs were really coming from were you say they are coming, i would really be astonished by the result of the Mutara experiment.
even when son of german shephard and wolf were mated with real CSW (kazan's puppies)
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/2480
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/924
they don't look like CSW.
If somebody told me this dog's grandfather is a german shephard...I would have difficulties to believe it!
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0380.html

[Nebulosa]

Massimo, the results of the Mutara experiment will never be good and never will be right, it's easy to say why, was put a mutt hybrid in the breed.
Now can born some dogs who is seems to the CzW, as born dogs seems more Hybrid like, that heteronegese of the litter is common even if you cross 2 pure dogs with completelly different lines, when more these mix be cross with pure Czw, more seems they will be with Czw, when arrive the F5 generation of dilution, difficultly will be for see a more big difference than something out standard normal defect for the breed, the problem will not appear when the mix blood be worked open in line with Czw, when the linebreeding and inbreeding be done at the CzW side, it's ok for hide the hybrids and see they as dogs seems to Czw.

But, I only see something about Mutara's mix here, and ever for show something unexpected as these mix in dog show, already a F2 or F3 ( I no wonder if have F3 already), as the presence of these mix in PDL kennel and something not advised, all that was almost hide, so, you really think that it will be much far?
Supose, some years, the Mutara's already very well diluted and already well mix in some CzW lines, all that hide as it is now, one of this "come from mix" line dog fall in one not well informed breeder, who see that one side line of his dog is 'rare', supose that this breeder start to made linebreeding or imbreeding in the mutara's line side, so, won't be much time for we see big differences betwen pure line dogs and mix line dogs again.
Canadian wolf and GSD mix is much different from Carpatian wolf and pure GSD.

If was for 'save' the breed with an open blood in the line ( I think and agree, that is really needed) do that right and wise.
CzW comes from Carpathian wolf, that cannot be changed for preserve the breed, have lines of CzW that is more "GSD like", so, can use these CzW pure dogs with an Carpatian wolf for open, do all that legally and with the knowledge of all people interessed in the breed, nothing hide.

Use a mutt hybrid as Mutara's and PDL do now, only will put the breed more close to extinction.