Question about the oldest and best breeders

dog_cooker · 17-07-2007, 22:03

Alright thank you, now I some what understand what type of breeder I have to look for. first is that its a CZW(wright's coefficient, wolf blood percentage, ancestor loss %, and pedigree), second is that the mother and father are in good health without hip dysplasia(bonitiation & HD assures this?), third is that its well raised, forth would be training titles. i still gotta teach myself about wright coefficent(genetic traits). Wolf blood is pretty obvious(read somewhere it has to be close to 35%). I would guess ancestor loss percentage would be the direct opposite of wolf blood.

Going back to my orginal question. I guess theres no "well known" breeders out there that meet all these standards or is it that theres too many? Are all the ones in the breeder list genuine CZW breeders?
(no hybrids) I only ask this cause it looks like any old shmoe can add a breeder to the list.

Dharkwolf · 17-07-2007, 23:51

Allow me a few comments -

1) Ancestor loss coefficient has nothing to do with wolf blood. It is in fact an attempt to measure inbreeding (in this respect it is similar to the wright coefficient)

2) Wright Coefficient - like I said a measurement of inbreeding - my personal preferences? I would frown on having a dog in the last five generations with a wright coefficient of 5 or more, and would avoid anyone with a wright coefficient of 8 or more, but this is not a hard and fast rule. The important thing to remember about the wright coefficient is that the *total* wright coefficient is essentially meaningless - you have to look at the coefficient of each ancestor. Thus if a dog has 4 ancestors which each provide a wright coefficient of 2 - the total would be 8 but in my opinion that dog is fine. A dog which on the other hand has a single ancestor which gives a wright coefficient of 8 would be seriously inbred.

3) Wolf blood - we keep track of this mostly for the fun of it really - unlike what you might have read elsewhere, in practice it does not seem to correlate with any of the traits which you would expect. i.e. there is no correlation between wolf blood and wolfish appearance, or between wolf blood and wolf-like character traits (whatever those might be!). 35% wolf blood for a CSV is actually very high, I would be hard pressed to find an animal alive today with such a high wolf content 26-32% seems to be the typical range (though even that number can be a bit high)

As to whether there are well known breeders out there which meet all of your requirements? Possibly. Though people would most likely not agree on who those breeders would be. Unfortunately the breeders which I can think of that would fit into that category probably would never dream of shipping a pup to the US - there are very good reasons for not wanting to do this if you are a good breeder, i.e. you want to keep your breeding stock available for your lines, you want to be able to intervene if there are problems with your pups, you want to be on hand to give advice to the owners of your pups, you want to avoid there being too much hype about your dogs in a far off country... (we know of several distinct problems that CSVs encounter in the US, although ultimately it is up to your state veterinary authority, they seem to be usually considered wolf hybrids, and this has some important implications)

There is an interesting question - Are all the breeders on the list genuine CSV breeders? Well they all breed CSVs... unfortunately in the past there have been instances of breeders providing false information to wolfdog, which took some time to verify that a problem really existed. Where this has been found out those breeders have been removed from the list. You could say that the list is the best there is, but it cannot be taken as an absolute guarantee of anything.

My advice to you would be to wait and watch. Getting a wolfdog is not a decision to be taken lightly. If I had been properly informed I am not sure I would have ever gotten one... but then again I never really got one, rather I married a wolfdog breeder

So take your time, get to know more about the breed, ask questions, both in the forum and privately. CSVs can make great family dogs, I think both our bitches fall into that category (well, when they aren't trying to kill any guests which they have not been properly introduced to yet) but I also know of wolfdogs which are the kind of dog which you would never want to have as a family dog - for a variety of reasons.

Take your time, learn. Pup season is not really till November anyhow

Mirkawolf · 18-07-2007, 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharkwolf

My advice to you would be to wait and watch. Getting a wolfdog is not a decision to be taken lightly. If I had been properly informed I am not sure I would have ever gotten one... but then again I never really got one, rather I married a wolfdog breeder

Just for info, we are NOT breeding at the moment. There will be no puppies from Vlci sen for several years. So this is NOT promotion of our kennel, just well meant advices.

dog_cooker · 23-07-2007, 03:17

Thank you, you all have been very helpful.

mijke · 18-07-2007, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharkwolf

2) Wright Coefficient - like I said a measurement of inbreeding - my personal preferences? I would frown on having a dog in the last five generations with a wright coefficient of 5 or more, and would avoid anyone with a wright coefficient of 8 or more, but this is not a hard and fast rule.

Hi Dharkwolf

Sorry, but I don't understand

In the database of each dog is mentionend the total of the Wright Coefficient of all his ancestors in 5 generations.
And I always thought that the max avarage (total) WC was between 10 -15 % (like a lot of CsW, even yours and mine have)

And yes I understand

your explanation about single ancestor which gives a high wright coefficient .

Maybe it is because of the language problem for me that I don't understand correct

Rona · 18-07-2007, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog_cooker

Going back to my orginal question. I guess theres no "well known" breeders out there that meet all these standards or is it that theres too many? Are all the ones in the breeder list genuine CZW breeders?
(no hybrids) I only ask this cause it looks like any old shmoe can add a breeder to the list.

Mirka and Dharwolf are right and provdie you with good advice. Even reliable, "old" breeders happen to sell a 'faulty' pup among many healthy and nice ones, which doesn't mean that the breeder is dishonest, but e.g. some problems may appear later. On the other hand, "young" kennels may produce very interesting litters of unique matching, good characters and health. There are no rules. There were cases when several pups in some litters had HD problems, though the parents were X-rays and had A/0 results. Later it turned out that they all had the same ancestor somewhere in the lines with a HD problem.
Some CSV with relatively low "wolf blood content" are incredibly independent or shy, or have a tendency to run away, while others - with wolf genes close to 30% - are friendly creatures who love the whole world and enjoy being taken to every place - from a restaurant to a zoo. But again, this is not a rule, of course.

I'm not writing this to discourage you, but just to show you it's neither maths nor a checklist to tick off the items. People whom I know and who bought really lovely dogs devoted a few months (or sometimes even years) waiting for a particualr match. They visited the breeders, talked to them, watched how they treat the dogs and the pups, e.g. if they keep them in cages or at their homes - as part of the family and spend much time with them. They went to camps, observed the dogs during trainings, assessed their character, behaviour, studied show results etc. But again - a champion's title itself says nothing, since it could have been won at dog shows where there was no competition at all

. I know fantastic dogs without many 'flashy' titles, because the owners have other priorities - interesting jobs, small kids, etc. and just want a companion at home or/and for work.

It's really incredible how much CSVs vary among themselves both in terms of appearance (colour, size, "face expression"

) and individuality. We had a CSV meeting a month ago, and after spending an hour or so among more than 10 dogs - the owners (even their kids) had no problems in recognising which is which even when they ran and played together in the garden like that:

Coming from the US

you probably think in terms of "just do it" principle, which is perfect for effective business, but does not necessarily fit the context discussed above.

. Excuse me for stereotyping, but I encouner this approach ever so often in my professional life! I don't criticsie it - just think it's not always the best way

17-07-2007, 23:51	#2
Dharkwolf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brussels Posts: 201	Allow me a few comments - 1) Ancestor loss coefficient has nothing to do with wolf blood. It is in fact an attempt to measure inbreeding (in this respect it is similar to the wright coefficient) 2) Wright Coefficient - like I said a measurement of inbreeding - my personal preferences? I would frown on having a dog in the last five generations with a wright coefficient of 5 or more, and would avoid anyone with a wright coefficient of 8 or more, but this is not a hard and fast rule. The important thing to remember about the wright coefficient is that the total wright coefficient is essentially meaningless - you have to look at the coefficient of each ancestor. Thus if a dog has 4 ancestors which each provide a wright coefficient of 2 - the total would be 8 but in my opinion that dog is fine. A dog which on the other hand has a single ancestor which gives a wright coefficient of 8 would be seriously inbred. 3) Wolf blood - we keep track of this mostly for the fun of it really - unlike what you might have read elsewhere, in practice it does not seem to correlate with any of the traits which you would expect. i.e. there is no correlation between wolf blood and wolfish appearance, or between wolf blood and wolf-like character traits (whatever those might be!). 35% wolf blood for a CSV is actually very high, I would be hard pressed to find an animal alive today with such a high wolf content 26-32% seems to be the typical range (though even that number can be a bit high) As to whether there are well known breeders out there which meet all of your requirements? Possibly. Though people would most likely not agree on who those breeders would be. Unfortunately the breeders which I can think of that would fit into that category probably would never dream of shipping a pup to the US - there are very good reasons for not wanting to do this if you are a good breeder, i.e. you want to keep your breeding stock available for your lines, you want to be able to intervene if there are problems with your pups, you want to be on hand to give advice to the owners of your pups, you want to avoid there being too much hype about your dogs in a far off country... (we know of several distinct problems that CSVs encounter in the US, although ultimately it is up to your state veterinary authority, they seem to be usually considered wolf hybrids, and this has some important implications) There is an interesting question - Are all the breeders on the list genuine CSV breeders? Well they all breed CSVs... unfortunately in the past there have been instances of breeders providing false information to wolfdog, which took some time to verify that a problem really existed. Where this has been found out those breeders have been removed from the list. You could say that the list is the best there is, but it cannot be taken as an absolute guarantee of anything. My advice to you would be to wait and watch. Getting a wolfdog is not a decision to be taken lightly. If I had been properly informed I am not sure I would have ever gotten one... but then again I never really got one, rather I married a wolfdog breeder So take your time, get to know more about the breed, ask questions, both in the forum and privately. CSVs can make great family dogs, I think both our bitches fall into that category (well, when they aren't trying to kill any guests which they have not been properly introduced to yet) but I also know of wolfdogs which are the kind of dog which you would never want to have as a family dog - for a variety of reasons. Take your time, learn. Pup season is not really till November anyhow __________________

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

17-07-2007, 22:03	#1
dog_cooker Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7	Alright thank you, now I some what understand what type of breeder I have to look for. first is that its a CZW(wright's coefficient, wolf blood percentage, ancestor loss %, and pedigree), second is that the mother and father are in good health without hip dysplasia(bonitiation & HD assures this?), third is that its well raised, forth would be training titles. i still gotta teach myself about wright coefficent(genetic traits). Wolf blood is pretty obvious(read somewhere it has to be close to 35%). I would guess ancestor loss percentage would be the direct opposite of wolf blood. Going back to my orginal question. I guess theres no "well known" breeders out there that meet all these standards or is it that theres too many? Are all the ones in the breeder list genuine CZW breeders? (no hybrids) I only ask this cause it looks like any old shmoe can add a breeder to the list.

23-07-2007, 03:17	#4
dog_cooker Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7	Thank you, you all have been very helpful.