Height and weight

[massimo]

Originally Posted by fenris

This discussion points out that breeding for dog-shows and show-titles is more or less a detriment for a breed. The requirements for breeding in the countries of origin of this breed (bonitations and functional testing) are very important factors for the development of a healthy, functional and harmonious dog.
But when it comes to size I think special attention must be kept on this factor to prevent loss of size through the generations. For some reason that I dont really understand, it seems that a decrease in size often occur when inbreeding or linebreeding. Last time I saw a group of Checkoslovakian wolfdogs they looked smaller than some years earlier. A similar tendency is seen among Saarlooswolfdogs.

This i like a lot!!
thanks fenris.
but...i've seen around in cz and italy and haven't noticed a reduction in size at all, on the contrary, people are asking themselves if there aren't a bit too many "larger" dogs.
in sk maybe there is a tendency to reduction? maybe.
Maybe it's due to the very small number of csw?
or maybe that not many studs from abroad with different blood are being used?? could be a good argument for discussion (no polemics please, just plain minded thoughts)

it seems that a decrease in size often occur when inbreeding or linebreeding

isn't that scientifically proven?
massimo

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo,
Mona must have I think 10puppies, all want puppies from this litter
About date of pick up: I will see, we can write about it later.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

Was there a maximum in the past (it seems from some replies No)

I heard that historical there was maximum size for CLT: 70 cm for male and 65 cm for female before. I heard that F. Rosik from Slovakia told about one of the Italian males (during a dog show in Nitra) that the male is too BIG (maybe it was because the male was looking so DIFFERENT from other dogs in the youth class - light coloured, very long, with different body build). And even now many breeders in origin countries are ashamed if their females are bigger then 65cm. The reasons is: there MUST be VISIBLE difference between female and male. Huge females get very often worser notes and text "too masculine".

Originally Posted by massimo

-Shouldn't there be a limit in order to avoid getting "camel"-like dogs?

But there IS the maximum written in the breed standard. It is hidden in the 'cynological' speak but it is there... Look in the "GENERAL APPEARANCE:". You can find there words "Above average size". No words about "LARGE size". Average size are breeds where males have max 65cm. Most of the breeds which are described as "large size"" start already at 70 cm... By CzW there is written "above average size" (no words like "a medium to large size" which would mean that big dogs are also 'welcome'). So according to the standard Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs should be 65-70cm... "Camels" are not "typical" CzW...

The same info you can find in the bonitation card. Look on the codes for sizes:
An - height under 65 cm for males and 60 cm for females
As - 65-70cm for males and 60-65 cm for females
Av - over 70cm for males and 65 cm for females

What mean the abbreviations? 'n' = "nízký", means low/small. 's' = střední, means middle, and 'v' = vysoký, means large/high.
And it means that a male of 68 cm has AVERAGE (MIDDLE) size. And female of 68cm is not typical but LARGE. The same with males over 70cm....



Even the wolves are not so HUGE. I know many people look on the Canadian and American Wolves in the movies or TV (and their height of even 90cm) but CLT should look like EUROPEAN Wolves which are red coloured and not so big. Here you have some examples:
** adult wolf and adult CLT (69) - as you can see the wolf is smaller
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/gallery/pic23381.html
*** here you see other adult (and pretty large) european wolves and adult CLT male (70cm) - as you can see the CLT is much higher as the wolves
http://www.wolfdog.org/pol/gallery/pic27961.html
This photos were taken in Czech Republic but we have similar photos with European Wolves from Poland, Slovakian and Hungary... And it is really not true that wolves are huge...

European Wolves have about 70cm (males). The average size of adult CzW is about 67,54. So you can see the difference is only about 2.5 cm... But more important is the weight - the European Wolves have 70 cm but weight about 41kg (females about 32kg). It is MUCH less than by most CzW where you can see 67 cm high CzW with 65 kg... Simply said - many CzWs are TOO fat (too heavy) -> NO MORE TYPICAL, NO MORE WOLFISH. Expecially when you look on the large CzW (over 70cm) you will see that most of them look more like South Asian Ovtscharkas than Wolves... And it is the main problem... I know breeders of large dogs say their dog move light, that wolves are also large and, and, and... They are simple totally sure only their Wolfdogs are right. But when you look on their dogs you ask yourself - HE? THIS LARGE SHEPHERD IS CALLED A WOLFDOG?

I'm not a big friend of CzW which are on the minimum size... A nice wolfish male with 68, 69 or 70cm looks ALWAYS better than nice wolfish male with 65 cm... But I know the reality and it is almost not possible to find "nice wolfish male" which is over 70 cm... So it is the reason why I use for my females dogs of average size but TYPICAL... I will never use a male only because the male is BIG. The size is for me one of the last things which count for me when I'm choosing a stud dog...

Originally Posted by massimo

why is maybe the "best hight" in between these values(68 for example)? maybe because it's easier to maintain proportions on an average hight dog without the risk of having a heavy head with loose lip and big chest (too high) or having short legs and weak bones (too short).

Yes - it is the most common reason.... 99.999% of the "wolfish" CzWs are not higher than 70 cm Why? Because in the most cases when you look in the pedigrees of the HUGE CzWs you will see that not the genes of a Wolf but the genes of a German Shepherd Dogs are responsible for such huge size.... The biggest and heaviest CzW have a lot of GSD blood in their veins - comming mainly from the last crossing (Kazan z PS and his offspring which were not Wolfdogs but HUGE BLACK GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS) - it is the reason why you can meet heaviest and largest CzW almost only in Czech Republic by the "old lines".

Originally Posted by massimo

if you manage to find a strong, tall, well proportioned, with a light movement male of 72cm, would you rather use him in breeding or a 65cm very light male with a wonderful looking wolfish head although not so elegant?
OR would you simply use them both in the same way according to the "right" female?

What do you mean with "light movement"? Even bulldogs can move "light" - compared to other dogs of their breed... But there is other problem - you wrote about italian forum and it fits very well because I saw some large dogs from Italy which are at the same time VERY long (with the index of format much higher than 111). Such dogs move LIGHT but not like WOLFDOGS. I know some breeders like to breed so long dogs because the judges (all-rounders) like such movement (long trot) but it is not the typical CzW movement described in the breed standard.
The second problem is visibiel not only in Italy but also in other countries - many owners of large dog say "my dog is huge but moves light" but it is also not what we mean with "harmonious, light footed, ground covering trot". Why? Because their dogs are build like GSD - have large and broad chests, strong angulation of the legs, longer bodies. Such dogs also seem to move "light" but like light "old German Shepherd Dogs"...

Simply said - in the most cases when the owners of large CzWs say their Wolfdogs move "light" the dogs really have light movement but not light movement of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.... In Poland we have even Wolfdogs which look like perfect GSDs (the only difference is they have white mask and are not black but also their owners will even swear also their dogs move light... So I never believe whan someone says a CzW moves light until I have not seen this dog with my own eyes...

...BUT...

if we really have the case that I must choose between large, well proportioned CzW with light movement and a not so elegant male with wolfish head I will take the first one. Why? Because the head can be changed pretty fast with the right selection. But it is VERY hard to "repair" wrong proportions and unharmonious body build...you need GENERATIONS to make it right....

Originally Posted by massimo

Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?

First problem is - many breeders make mistake and are not able to distinguish between HEAVY Wolfdogs and WELL BONED Wolfdogs... So a "wolfish" CzW can be at the same time also "powerful". "Small" can be also "elegant" (as I already wrote in the most cases wolfdog of the average size are more elegant than the tall ). So the breeders should breed Wolfdogs which are:
compact/elegant/wolfish/powerful...

Originally Posted by fenris

Still in the french you can see one breeder say that make one improvement of the breed in the country breeding females that arrive at 72cm high.

"Improvement"???? Sorry, but I know breeders which were hidding the information that their females are higher that 65cm... Because it is nothing to be proud of it...
Our friends have female which ist ("only" ) 67.5 and they heard already more times that an expert judge said "Sorry, but male were already judged"... Or - "who are the parents of this male..."
Sure - there are also females which are 62 cm and look "heavy" and masculine like CzW males. But there are almost no large females which still look typical and feminine... And I still writing about females with the size 67-68 and not 72(!)cm....

Originally Posted by fenris

But when it comes to size I think special attention must be kept on this factor to prevent loss of size through the generations. For some reason that I dont really understand, it seems that a decrease in size often occur when inbreeding or linebreeding. Last time I saw a group of Checkoslovakian wolfdogs they looked smaller than some years earlier.

I would also not say it - the Wolfdogs are not getting smaller but bigger. And there is HUGE difference when you compare the look of the Wolfdogs bred 10 years ago and now - in the most cases "new" CzW are much more "wolfish". But the judges do not preffer small dogs but too large (I mean heavy) - they really do not look how typical a dog is. The judge according the rule: "the heavier the better".

=================

But back to the main topic: there are much more important reasons why people do not want to breed very huge CLT:

1) I would say about 99% of the CLT males which are bigger than 70 cm do not have the typical body and look. In the most cases such CLTs are too heavy and look more like huge GSD or Molosses and are no more 'wolfish'...

2) Huge (-> heavy) dogs have much often problem with the hips - with HD and even ED

3) Huge dogs are no more resilient and are not able to run long distances (which is one of the most typical features of this breed)... We saw that in the most cases large CLT have even problems to run 20 km. And are not able to pass 40km runs...

4) The best working CLT are of average size. Large dogs are too heavy and too lazy to get any better results in training. You will see that the best working males (with the most passed exams) are: 68, 67, 68, 68, 68, 67 cm. And females: 61.5, 64, 64, 63, 61, 64, 62.5 cm. As you can see all of them are of average or small size. The only big dog with nice exams is Hero od Uhoste but he is also very slim and typical looking (not one of the Moloss type CLT). I know of course two CLTs with many exams - one is 71cm and second 70.5 but the owners stopped to make exams with them because they were so heavy so they get HUGE problems with their hips and it was not possible to work with them anymore...

So it is the reason why none of the important breeders has as goal to breed huge dogs... They care for the typical wolfish look, for the right character, for the right indexes. But not for the size... The only important thing is: the CLT should not be too small. If a dog is over the 70 cm it is not a problem but ONLY if the dog is typical...

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

"Improvement"???? Sorry, but I know breeders which were hidding the information that their females are higher that 65cm... Because it is nothing to be proud of it...
Our friends have female which ist ("only" ) 67.5 and they heard already more times that an expert judge said "Sorry, but male were already judged"... Or - "who are the parents of this male..."
Sure - there are also females which are 62 cm and look "heavy" and masculine like CzW males. But there are almost no large females which still look typical and feminine... And I still writing about females with the size 67-68 and not 72(!)cm....

I am a bit surprised about this. I am myself owner of two very large females (well above the minimal height), and I never felt ashamed of their size. On the contrary, I am happy about their size. Yet I do not think, they´d look masculine or heavy at all.

Yes, it happened to me too, at dog shows, that the judge thought my females were too big, or even said about one that she was having masculine look. The main problem was usually in fact, that there were no "masculine" looking males at the dog show, and scary enough, my females were bigger than most of males present!

Next to a "jackal" looking male, my females will always look more heavy and "masculine", because they look like real dogs.
On the other side, compared to normal masculine looking male (see picture), there is no doubt who is female and who is male. And that even when the male is actually almost on the height limit.



My larger female has better movement, than many smaller females or males that I´ve recently met. She can run 20 km, or more, without being tired (but I do!). And she looks like a wolf when trotting, opposite to smaller dogs, that look like jackal hopping ..

And with such large female, logically smaller sized males (65, 66 or 67 cm) can be used without worries, that the pups will not achieve the minimal height. Which can easily happen, if mating males and females both closely to the height limit.

Therefore, I do not think the problem again is the size of the dog. Yes, 72cm is maybe too much for a female, after all, we breed dogs and not horses.

But what really matters, is the way the dog is built. If the female is 68cm, moves lightly and looks like female (next to normal looking males), then there is no problem. Maybe the bigger problem we have, is that there starts to appear a lot of males, that are not having typical masculine head and body built. And if the male is not looking like a male, it is fault against the standard. But it cannot be solved by eliminating larger females, so that the males "look masculine" next to them.

[massimo]

interesting mirka
I wonder if a breeder should be ashamed more if his female is too "big" or "heavy" or if he should be ashamed if his male is too "small" and "feminine"?
Personally I have a very small female and although she has got Hip displasia even if she didn't I'm not sure if I would have used her. I wonder how many others have the same "criteria".
Not many I think.
I'm not speaking "only" about Height but of Masculine looks and bones.

I remember so much critisism about using Cutt who was too short (64,5cm), but he didn't give the majority of "short" sons.
I agree with the critisism that he was used too much, this I agree surely.
But Cutt is a Male, strong male, looks and behaves like a male.
I've seen some breeders use males who really looked not masculin at all (and they were "just" over the limit!).

"Maybe" what's important are the results: if a breeder done well or bad we can only now it after, not before.
Otherwise many many breeders shouldn't be allowed to breed, and I'm not only speaking about Italy of course....
massimo

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

I am a bit surprised about this. I am myself owner of two very large females (well above the minimal height), and I never felt ashamed of their size. On the contrary, I am happy about their size. Yet I do not think, they´d look masculine or heavy at all.
(..)
Next to a "jackal" looking male, my females will always look more heavy and "masculine", because they look like real dogs.
On the other side, compared to normal masculine looking male (see picture), there is no doubt who is female and who is male. And that even when the male is actually almost on the height limit.

Mirka - it is a I wrote - I do not say ALL dogs which are bigger must be untypical. I say ALMOST ALL are untypical.
You show your dogs in the countries of "jackals".... Every typical female will be bigger and stronger than "jackal" males....

When I write about 'masculine females' I do not mean the case when one judge which do not have any idea about this breed wrote such words in the show card... I mean females which are bigger and STRONGER that strong build Czech males... I say about females which have very bad contact with the males of this breed because the males are mislead by their look - even the males think it is a male and are growling on them because they do not recognize it is a female....

And in the most cases the untypical look is connected with the size. The same is with males. Sure they are very nice and very typical males which are bigger than 70cm but the majority of the males which are bigger than 70 cm is untypical: too heavy, too molosoid.

My larger female has better movement, than many smaller females or males that I´ve recently met. She can run 20 km, or more, without being tired (but I do!). And she looks like a wolf when trotting, opposite to smaller dogs, that look like jackal hopping ..

You right - the endurance runs are one of the best ways to make proper selection. I know CzWs which are almost on the minimum of the size which were not able to pass the exams because of their wrong body build. But most of the dogs which are not able to pass it are HUGE and HEAVY.
It is the reason why I think the endurance run should be taken into consideration during the bonitation results. If we will decide that ONLY dogs which passed the endurance exams (SVP1 would be enough) with excellent note would get the P1 we would have no more too heavy, untypical dogs which get the perfect code but which are not able to run even 20km. The test would be the best criterion to say which dog is typical and which is not. Because the "typical" look is not connected with the size but with the body proportions. Such step will finish the old story with the size - it would be simple:
PEOPLE CAN BREED LARGE (AND EVEN HEAVY) WOLFDOGS OR SMALLER AND LIGHTER - BUT THEY CAN BREED ONLY DOGS WHICH CAN PASS THE BASIC TEST WITH THE NOTE EXCELLENT.
Because we all know dogs which are called "perfect", P1, "great" and "typical" by their owners but were almost tired to death after the 20 km run....

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

And with such large female, logically smaller sized males (65, 66 or 67 cm) can be used without worries, that the pups will not achieve the minimal height. Which can easily happen, if mating males and females both closely to the height limit.

No - the story with the size is much more complicated... We already saw that the size of the parents is not so important as their "genes"... Just look on your female - she is over the average size but her parents are almost on the minimum size. And she is "Slovak line" it means "supposedly" the small one... If you get different males (with the same height) for the same female you will get puppies which have different size...

At the moment I will say there is no more problem with the dogs which do not reach the minimum size in the origin countries. I heard from different breeders about one line where the dogs do not reach the minimun because of their "genes" but the dogs are very INBREEDED and not from SK or CZ. I heard rumors about the same problem in some French kennels but I didn't saw the dogs so far and because the bonitation results are missing I can not confirm it...

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

But what really matters, is the way the dog is built. If the female is 68cm, moves lightly and looks like female (next to normal looking males), then there is no problem.

EXACTLY

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

Maybe the bigger problem we have, is that there starts to appear a lot of males, that are not having typical masculine head and body built. And if the male is not looking like a male, it is fault against the standard. But it cannot be solved by eliminating larger females, so that the males "look masculine" next to them.

And here is the difference - what you write is right when we speak about "your" countries (NL, FR, LU, BE)... You have there problem with males which have too light bones, too small, which have too narrow heads with feminine look. The females are OK.
But here the story is different - we have more females which are too masculine, too huge, too heavy.
I can tell you - on one summer camp I saw WONDERFUL male. I was prepared to use this male to cover my female. The male was great - beautiful dry head, large size, great body.... Jolly from the begining was crazy about him - she really liked him... But this male had no tescticle.... I was shocked when I asked the owner for name of this dog and I heard it was ... a FEMALE.... I'm really not a begginer which is not able to distinguish CzW male from CzW female.... And I'm talking about such cases like this...

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

And here is the difference - what you write is right when we speak about "your" countries (NL, FR, LU, BE)... You have there problem with males which have too light bones, too small, which have too narrow heads with feminine look. The females are OK.

Again, I am sorry but I have to disagree. I was not speaking about "my" countries at all. Or maybe I was, because I consider "my" countries to be Czech Republic and Slovakia. And this summer, in both of these countries I´ve seen males, that were not able to match my females. I had Czech owner running towards me happily with his tiny female, telling her on the way:"Woo, let´s go see these two gorgeous males..". When I stopped him in time explaining they were females, he was totally shocked and then sad about size and look of his own female.

This summer, I´ve met many dogs in Lazne Belohrad, that were males and did not look like males at all. If I have to bend and look down everytime I meet a wolfdog to figure, if it is female or male, then there is something wrong. The sex of the male or female should be clear for the first sight.

So what is worrying me, is not the size of our dogs, but the raising amount of "unisex" looking dogs with light bones and light heads. This summer in CR (and SR) I saw, the jackals reached the East countries, too.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1

This summer, I´ve met many dogs in Lazne Belohrad, that were males and did not look like males at all.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!
and the "few" male looking males, your female behaved with them in such way to make them seem like puppies...
massmio

[Mirkawolf]

You will never forget to Cira, that she can beat Oliver any time, will you But she is very special, you see.

[taro]

Hello everyone. my name is Esther and I am the proud owner of one of Hanka's dogs, O'Taro od Uhoste. My wolfdog is a male and he is just 65 cm tall. The fact is that he looks small compared to Italian big males, but he looks much more wolfish and agile. The truth is I prefer a limited height, i.e. not more than 70-72cm. Greetings specially to hanka

[fenris]

Hello Taro. I see that youre from Barcelona. Last year when I visited Barcelona I also had the opportunity to see the 2 or 3 iberian wolves (canis lupus signatus) in the central zoo in Barcelona. Have you seen them? The sex differences are huge. The female was small and fox-like while the male was large and gave the impression of a wolfdog. They were very different from our Scandinavian wolves. My guess is that the female stood only approximately 60 - 64 cm while the male must have reached some 70 - 75. Also the proportions of the body was quite different.

[massimo]

Hola Taro
You should be proud of your dog IN ANY CASE.
My Lunatica is below standard (58 approx) and Hd D, but I wouldn't change her or give her away for ANY MONEY AT ALL!!!
But I believe my male is more in type than her because of height and structure and bones.
I assure you that SHE is much much more wolfish than him!

65cm is 7cm less than 72cm, so it's obvious that he looks smaller.
But it doesn't mean he looks worst.
He would also look smaller than Hanka's Ali...(as many other wolfdogs would...)

As already others mentioned, other things are more important than height: character, health, proportions, these are things to be proud about!
massimo

Originally Posted by taro

Hello everyone. my name is Esther and I am the proud owner of one of Hanka's dogs, O'Taro od Uhoste. My wolfdog is a male and he is just 65 cm tall. The fact is that he looks small compared to Italian big males, but he looks much more wolfish and agile. The truth is I prefer a limited height, i.e. not more than 70-72cm. Greetings specially to hanka

[Vaiva]

Didn't want to make a new topic, so I hope my question will suit here.
Could anyone please explain me the meanings of Height Index and Format Index?.. What are the "right" numbers and how are they counted? I didn't find anything about it o CsW standart...

Thanks in advance.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Could anyone please explain me the meanings of Height Index and Format Index?..

Index of height is a proportion between the length of front legs and height in withers (length of leg*100/height). As wolfdogs should be long-legged, and the standard says that the length of front legs should be 55% of heigt of the dog, this index should be between 54-55 for P1 dog.

Index of format say if the dog is of right format. The standard says it should be around 9:10 (height:length). It is counted as height in withers*100/length of the dog (measured from the front of breast to the end of pelvic bone below tail). The correct number should be between 109-111, longer dog cannot be P1, but smaller numbers do not decrease the evaluation as much as the index of height.

There is a new index, which the slovak club introduced this summer, and that is index of head. The standard says that the proportion between the muzzle and skull should be 1:1.5. We are now planning to evaluate this index in the already measured dogs to find out what numbers should be acceptable.

[Vaiva]

Thanks for your explanation. It is clear now

[krala]

Hello,

Can somebody tell me how tall and how many kilos should a female of 8 months should have? I am worried that my dog is too thin..

Thanks a lot,
Ioana - Romania

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

You should be able to feel the rips without having to push your fingers through a layer of fat. Wolfdogs that are growing are very often looking a little bit skinny, that is normal and much better than too fat.

Ina

[krala]

Dear Ina,

Thanks a lot for your info.. I probably am a little bit paranoid...

Ioana

[saschia]

On the other hand, if you see more than the last pairs of ribs, then the dog is too thin... But be careful, in this age the growing is already slower and if you feed too much the dog can get fat in just a few weeks.

[krala]

Dear Saschia,

I don't actualy see the ribs, but I can feel them..
I feed my dog mostly raw chicken meat and bones, boiled hart and cow liver, cow meat. I let her eat as much as she wants. She refuses to eat dog food, but I do give her vitamines.. I probably get worried because she often eats only one time a day . Is that ok you think?

Thanks a lot,
Ioana