Puppy prices (not only in UK) - Page 2

Tassle · 29-09-2011, 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by richardgraham

she is part of our family, need to get facts right,before opening your mouths

If this post was in response to me, I was merely asking how you are going to feel, having imported a dog specifically for breeding, if it is not 'good enough' when it grows up? You cannot always tell as pups if a dog is going to be suitable to further the breed. If this turns out to be the case (for whatever reason). Will you be happy having paid out all the money to get him over, for him *just* to be a family pet?
(I am merely asking you what any decent breeder would)

happyfeet · 29-09-2011, 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by richardgraham

Hi im looking to buy CsV pup for my bitch, to inport to uk,as a new blood line ,could you give me any name of breeders please

can I ask

The 'pup' you plan to breed from is that from wolfzone? I ask because I know a gent who has one from there and his certificate produced from wolfzone states breeding retrictions and I am told that wolfzone will not allow breeding of her pups?

tupacs2legs · 29-09-2011, 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaidd

can I ask

The 'pup' you plan to breed from is that from wolfzone? I ask because I know a gent who has one from there and his certificate produced from wolfzone states breeding retrictions and I am told that wolfzone will not allow breeding of her pups?

Not only that but as I stated no reputable breeder will sell a dog for the specific reason to mate it with a non fci dog....which wolfzone dogs are not! Lovely lovely dogs

but non registered

Richard Graham · 30-09-2011, 08:32

Hi thanks for the reply the breeding reretrictions are pending hip score

tupacs2legs · 30-09-2011, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by richardgraham

Hi thanks for the reply the breeding reretrictions are pending hip score

your not really listening are u?

Conor · 27-01-2004, 17:45

Thanks Margo. This is just the sort of thing I am wanting people to tell me about. I want to soak up as much information as I can, and establish contact with those of you who are already in the know, or who want to discuss your own particular take on dogs, wolves and wolfdogs.

mutt · 28-01-2004, 13:25

Quote:

hi paul winder here why have you not tried to get a czech from europe like i did ? you & chris are the only people who have questioned the price, why dont you team up & go to europe & get some czechs in & help the breed develope instead of running my wife & i down over price, the price is justified infact it is low. a british bulldog is £1500, a thia ridgeback in uk is £6000 thank god you did not want one of them. i have no time for this my concern is getting the bred reconised by the kennel club, if this price is high you will never own a czech .

Hi everyone.
I was only asking a civil question, and a question that any reasonable person would enquire about out of common sense. We are not looking to cause friction with anyone either here in the Uk, or on the continent. We simply want to make certain that we make the right moves, and start off on the right foot. We didn't dismiss the sum of £2000, but thought it sensible to make an effort to get information and therefore establish a proper starting point. My husband and I and the kids will give a CzW a loving home, and if £2000 is the price, we will pay it once we are satisfied the pup is well, and has been appropriately reared. We live in the middle of Argyllshire on a 20 acer small plot.
We understand that importing would be expensive and time consuming, and on top of that it is harder to maintain contact with people who are in different countries.

Karin and Donald

gaulirmorn · 28-01-2004, 18:07

I’m normally pretty easy going, but to be frank, this posting has really angered and sickened me …

The Winders are currently going through one of the most traumatic times of their lives, and yet this forum seems more concerned with their pricing policy than showing the sympathy that is due!
Do you honestly think that this is what Paul and Mandy need to be concerned with at present?

If any of you have ever lost a dearly loved animal, then you might just understand what Paul and Mandy are going through. Remember how you felt when your animal died? The loss: the anger: the bitterness?

Well, now add to that the 6 years of hard work that the Winders have endured to get to the point they are at now with this breed! 6 whole years of serious slog, battling red tape, procrastinators, recriminations, bureaucrats and scaremongers. Imagine the months of paperwork, telephone calls, and visitation to various authorities, breeders, shows, etc. Add the cost of your home (literally), the loss of your friends and your family whilst you follow your dream…

All for that one, precious goal.
To bring the Czech and Saarloos to people like us!

That’s right, US! The ones who really do care enough to want to share our lives with one of these wonderful creatures, but who are just too scared, stupid, or idle to want to attempt an import ourselves! That’s a lot of time, effort and money well spent on our behalf! Did you honestly expect these puppies to be a few hundred pounds a throw?

Pacino is an established kennel and it’s doing you a service just like any other business. The fee (put in simple terms for the layman) covers an eight week period; from birth to the collection of the puppy. That’s £250 per week for their trouble. Now think long and hard about what services you would need to import a Czech or Saarloos wolfdog from the continent. A vet, solicitor, kennel-hand, MP, trainer? Do you reckon you could get all these for £250 a week?

That £2000 is peace of mind to people like me, it means WE don’t have to jump through the hoops that the Winders have for the past 6 years! They have very kindly put themselves through all the trouble, time wasting, rigmarole and bigotry so that we don’t have to! All the hard work has been done for us BEFORE the pups are born. And it’s Paul and Mandy who have all the worry and hard work to do AFTER the birth too! All WE have to do is feather the nest for the new arrival and play the waiting game till he/she is ready to come home with us!

The Winders are respected breeders. They have spent years researching these breeds so as to offer the puppies the best possible upbringing; and offer US the best possible puppies. Paul and Mandy have striven to put US in the ‘driving seat’ so that we can bring home an eight-week old puppy, not a 10-month old juvenile. That’s a whole extra EIGHT months of quality time spent getting to know your new found friend, and NO transportation / separation trauma to the animal!
Beginning to get the picture?

The Winders need time to grieve over their loss, so why can’t you give it to them?

This should NOT be time when Paul is drawn online to vindicate himself, or his kennel! The loss of Lynx should be the issue here. It’s bad enough losing your companion when you know it’s going to happen, but tragic accidents like this are even harder to accept.

Think how you would feel if your animal was lost through trauma, and SHOW SOME RESPECT!

Gaulirmorn

Conor · 28-01-2004, 22:57

I am in agreement with Gaulimorn. The Winders have my confidence, respect, and sympathy at their loss. I am taking one of Lynx's pups, and I will will be referring to Paul and mandy in the coming months for advice and help. I will also be offering to help them in anyway I can in getting the CzW established in the UK. My opinion is that they are a credit to dog breeding, as they are so approcahable, evidently care for their dogs with regard to who they go to, and are not out to wring every penny out of the litter by asking ridiculously inflated prices.

A breed such as this has and will continue to arouse enormous curiosity from other dog breeders, owners, and the public in general. The owners of the first litter have a considerable responsibility, and debt of gratitude to both the Winders, and Cornelia Keizer - who I am told by Paul will also offer her advice to the new owners of Lynx's puppies as and when it is required. This will all be free, and more to the point, it will be sound advice based on DECADES of experience from the Winders, and Cornelia. I have owned pedigrees before, and paid considerable sums for them, but this is the forst time I have ever felt that I will be getting valid, concerned support. We should thank our lucky stars that we are the fortunate few, and we should be happy to ofer our support to Paul and Mandy in the coming months to help get this marvellous rare breed established with the great reputation it has justifiably earned on the continent.

I feel as though I have been granted a privilege, and given the opportunity to take up a rewarding new hobby - thanks to Paul, Mandy, Cornelia, and Lynx.

Finally consider this: anyone wanting to help Paul and Mandy will probably have the opportunity to breed their animal should they wish. I don't think for a minute that Paul and Mandy are anticipating doing it all alone without wanting to refer to the blood line that is Lynx's legacy. They will be asking us, to get involved. You will make your money back on your initial lay without any problem.

I will be thanking Paul and Mandy profusely on Saturday, and I will be mailing Cornelia Keizer on Saturday, to thank her for helping me to realise a dream.

Any one else who is taking one of Lynx's pups; it would be good to have contact with you, and hopefully we can share our experiences of our new dogs, and maybe pool resources to help Paul and Mandy in the future.

Conor

solowolf · 29-01-2004, 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaulirmorn

I’m normally pretty easy going, but to be frank, this posting has really angered and sickened me …

The Winders are currently going through one of the most traumatic times of their lives, and yet this forum seems more concerned with their pricing policy than showing the sympathy that is due!
Do you honestly think that this is what Paul and Mandy need to be concerned with at present?

If any of you have ever lost a dearly loved animal, then you might just understand what Paul and Mandy are going through. Remember how you felt when your animal died? The loss: the anger: the bitterness?

Well, now add to that the 6 years of hard work that the Winders have endured to get to the point they are at now with this breed! 6 whole years of serious slog, battling red tape, procrastinators, recriminations, bureaucrats and scaremongers. Imagine the months of paperwork, telephone calls, and visitation to various authorities, breeders, shows, etc. Add the cost of your home (literally), the loss of your friends and your family whilst you follow your dream…

All for that one, precious goal.
To bring the Czech and Saarloos to people like us!

That’s right, US! The ones who really do care enough to want to share our lives with one of these wonderful creatures, but who are just too scared, stupid, or idle to want to attempt an import ourselves! That’s a lot of time, effort and money well spent on our behalf! Did you honestly expect these puppies to be a few hundred pounds a throw?

Pacino is an established kennel and it’s doing you a service just like any other business. The fee (put in simple terms for the layman) covers an eight week period; from birth to the collection of the puppy. That’s £250 per week for their trouble. Now think long and hard about what services you would need to import a Czech or Saarloos wolfdog from the continent. A vet, solicitor, kennel-hand, MP, trainer? Do you reckon you could get all these for £250 a week?

That £2000 is peace of mind to people like me, it means WE don’t have to jump through the hoops that the Winders have for the past 6 years! They have very kindly put themselves through all the trouble, time wasting, rigmarole and bigotry so that we don’t have to! All the hard work has been done for us BEFORE the pups are born. And it’s Paul and Mandy who have all the worry and hard work to do AFTER the birth too! All WE have to do is feather the nest for the new arrival and play the waiting game till he/she is ready to come home with us!

The Winders are respected breeders. They have spent years researching these breeds so as to offer the puppies the best possible upbringing; and offer US the best possible puppies. Paul and Mandy have striven to put US in the ‘driving seat’ so that we can bring home an eight-week old puppy, not a 10-month old juvenile. That’s a whole extra EIGHT months of quality time spent getting to know your new found friend, and NO transportation / separation trauma to the animal!
Beginning to get the picture?

The Winders need time to grieve over their loss, so why can’t you give it to them?

This should NOT be time when Paul is drawn online to vindicate himself, or his kennel! The loss of Lynx should be the issue here. It’s bad enough losing your companion when you know it’s going to happen, but tragic accidents like this are even harder to accept.

Think how you would feel if your animal was lost through trauma, and SHOW SOME RESPECT!

Gaulirmorn

thank you for your support i must appologise to everyone for even getting involved with this matter online but i was upsett with the lose of lynx, we still look for her everyday, expecting to see her appear with the puppies, it was unprofessional & very much against my nature , but it has been a long hard slog to get here & we have offered help openly to people asking how to get these dogs to uk. so far no one has made any effort to do it, thank you for your time & support best regards paul & mandy

gaulirmorn · 29-01-2004, 14:22

Thank you for your kind response, Paul.

I think everyone will agree with me when I say that there is no need to apologise for your words or actions in recent days. It’s impossible to speak from the head when the heart is grieving, no matter how professional you are.

I am certain that no one will think any less of you for it.

And thank you, Conor. Best of luck with your new found bundle!

You'll probably need it!

Gaulirmorn

solowolf · 30-01-2004, 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by mutt

Quote:

hi paul winder here why have you not tried to get a czech from europe like i did ? you & chris are the only people who have questioned the price, why dont you team up & go to europe & get some czechs in & help the breed develope instead of running my wife & i down over price, the price is justified infact it is low. a british bulldog is £1500, a thia ridgeback in uk is £6000 thank god you did not want one of them. i have no time for this my concern is getting the bred reconised by the kennel club, if this price is high you will never own a czech .

Hi everyone.
I was only asking a civil question, and a question that any reasonable person would enquire about out of common sense. We are not looking to cause friction with anyone either here in the Uk, or on the continent. We simply want to make certain that we make the right moves, and start off on the right foot. We didn't dismiss the sum of £2000, but thought it sensible to make an effort to get information and therefore establish a proper starting point. My husband and I and the kids will give a CzW a loving home, and if £2000 is the price, we will pay it once we are satisfied the pup is well, and has been appropriately reared. We live in the middle of Argyllshire on a 20 acer small plot.
We understand that importing would be expensive and time consuming, and on top of that it is harder to maintain contact with people who are in different countries.

Karin and Donald

hi i did work my price out very conservitaly & it is a lot less than importing a pup, there are lots of breeders in europe but you need to get one to rear your pup till 10 mths so it cancome to uk i wish you the best of luck regards paul winder

Pavel · 30-01-2004, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by pacino

hi i did work my price out very conservitaly & it is a lot less than importing a pup, there are lots of breeders in europe but you need to get one to rear your pup till 10 mths so it cancome to uk i wish you the best of luck regards paul winder

Hi everybody,
am in this case strictly. We (webmasters) hear very often from some people the critique about puppies prices.
Please, dont forget, that its absolutely freedom of breeder, which prices setting. When have no problems and selling the puppies for this prices, then is everything OK. Most problematic is the other extreme, when "breeder" selling the puppy for very very low prices or give free of charge (yes, such cases we just know). Its a signal, that something is not OK. But high price, I mean, is OK.
I would like to quote one czech breeder. When call him somebody, who interested about his puppy and hear the price, then answer, that its too high, because he get a offer from other breeder and price was lower. Reaction of breeder was absolutelly excellent :
"Why you then call me ? You must call to the other breeder. I valuate my puppies so high. If for the other breeder have own puppies low value, its his privat problem.".

Howg

Pavel

PS : And little notice on the end. Nobody, who dont breeding ever, knows the costs with it. Before the critique try to counting shortly all possible costs with not puppies only but e.g. announcement, shows and training (its a best announcement) etc. Really seriously breeder, who care 100% about own dogs cant never makes a profit by breeding.

Conor · 30-01-2004, 21:21

Hi everybody. Now we have it from Pavel, and I understand that he knows is stuff, so hopefully we can lay this argument to rest. I am visiting Paul and Mandy tomorrow to collect my pup. I can't describe the feeling of exhiliration I have now at 7.15pm. Everyone I have metioned him to is waiting to see him with anticipation. This guy is going to be a star in my town, and I know that with Paul and Mandys continued support, he's going to promote this new breed in the UK in the noblest of fashions.

I already know he is money well spent!

Conor

Navarre · 31-01-2004, 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor

and I know that with Paul and Mandys continued support, he's going to promote this new breed in the UK in the noblest of fashions.

we hope that this breed will become more popular and diffuse in your country, so you english people in the future will no more pay 3 or 4 times the price than the rest of Europe.

solowolf · 02-02-2004, 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navarre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor

and I know that with Paul and Mandys continued support, he's going to promote this new breed in the UK in the noblest of fashions.

we hope that this breed will become more popular and diffuse in your country, so you english people in the future will no more pay 3 or 4 times the price than the rest of Europe.

HI i will ask you on line i want puppy from you, i need it to stay with you till it is 10mths old, you need to get its vaccinations, rabies blood tests, export pedigree & all paperwork, feed , keep & socilise this dog till it is 10mths then it gets pass port to come to uk. can you work out your price for this & let us all know on wolfdog.org ??? can you also explain why i should sell very rare breed of dog in uk for same price as common dog that is easy to get. please can i also remind everyone vet, feeding, & rareing puppies is three times the price in uk than anywhere in europe your in anticapation mr p winder

gaulirmorn · 03-02-2004, 14:02

Hi Paul,

I too await the response to your above question with interest. Only last night, I spoke to my mother regarding the Saarloos bitch that I hope you will bless me with in the future. Mum was amazed at the ‘excellent price’ (her words) that you were quoting for these puppies. (Obviously, as yet the Saarloos price is to be arranged, but I am expecting to pay around the same as for the Czechs).

My mother and I were discussing the issues raised on this site regarding costs, and the fact that the ONLY other option available to wanna-be owners is importation. We have no idea how much the actual fees would be in total, but we KNOW that the breakdown of importation cost is a whole lot more than what is being asked by Pacino. Unfortunately, people fail to see that the ‘cost’ equals both the finance AND time scale involved!

Firstly, you are probably going to find your breeder on mainland Europe, so you have a number of places to search. France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, ‘the world’s your oyster’ so long as you can get around the language barrier. And how many breeders will be willing to raise your animal for you for the first 10 months of its life? It’s asking quite a lot, especially considering that you might back out of the sale or be blocked by bureaucracy before you can import the animal.

Once you have selected your breeder you’ll have to pay them a visit, or two… Actually, we reckon that you would have to visit the breeder a minimum of three times; once to vet them; second to choose the puppy and third to collect him/her. And it always pays to have a good working relationship with your breeder, so even MORE visits would be advisable.

So, you’ve found and visited your breeder and you’re quite happy with him/her, and now you’re playing the waiting game. Waiting for the bitch to come into season, waiting to see if a mating will take place, waiting to see if the mating has been successful. Waiting for the whelping, the birth, to pick a puppy.

And what happens if you want a bitch and the mother only has three dogs? Then you have to wait for another bitch to come into season, or maybe the same bitch (which could be twelve months or more), you might even be forced to find another breeder!

Okay, so now you’ve got your prize! You have to take into consideration that this breeder is rearing your puppy for the first 10 months of it’s life you will have little or no imput into it’s upbringing. However, you WILL be expected to compensate the breeder for all the costs involved in the upkeep and training of the animal. Over 10 months that’s going to add up considerably!

Then there are vets bills, what happens if your animal has a medical problem that needs sorting out. Nothing serious enough to affect the purchase of the animal, but enough to affect your wallet…

At some stage your pride and joy will be ready to join you in the UK, but before then you’ll need to sort out the pet passport, which includes having to comply to certain specifics, jabs, chips, blood tests, etc. How much will this dent your pocket?

I suppose in the general scheme, these will be tiny amounts when you compare them to what has ALREADY been racked up! Then there’s the application for the pet passport. All that form filling and red tape. What happens if your animal fails the screening for whatever reason? More payment to the breeder for continuing to look after the animal for you, and that’s providing they are willing and able to do so!

Then there is the distress caused to the animal during the hand-over and importation period. Everything that he/she had come to accept and depend upon over the past 10 months is suddenly snatched away…
He/she has new owners, with quirky mannerisms, and strange smells. The new surroundings are intimidating and frightening.
Sounds and scents are unfamiliar, there’s a change of diet and the walks are shorter, noisier and at the wrong times!
The animal wants to flee, to return to ‘the norm’.
Do you have the expertise and understanding to be able to nurture the dog through this difficult time, and succeed?

I’m sure there are other matters that I have forgotten about, or do not even know of, but the point is that is would be a FAR greater drain on your time and money to import than paying the Pacino fee! My mum and I reckon it would cost you somewhere in the region of £8000 and about 2 years to import a wolfdog from Europe, and the animal’s welfare is paramount!

So in the general theme of things, I’ll be more than happy to hand the Winders my £2000 in return for my eight week old Saarloos, safe in the knowledge that I’ve saved my puppy distress, and myself time AND money!

Gaulirmorn

Navarre · 03-02-2004, 15:15

to mr. Pacino & Gaulirmon

sorry for my bad english, I did not want to offend noone. I know that ther are silly law in your country to import dogs (and even come for tourism with dogs)...10 months are the minimum age to importa a dog ?

however my wish is that when the CSW will be a more diffuse breed in your country, with many breeders and owners, the price of a puppy will be lower, because you haven't to import puppy from outside.

so no more import-costs, but only the costs of every other breeder.

simply !

z Peronówki · 03-02-2004, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

Please, dont forget, that its absolutely freedom of breeder, which prices setting. When have no problems and selling the puppies for this prices, then is everything OK.

That's right. It is typical not only for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs but for almost every breed: the price is saying nothing about the quality of puppies. It is just a number dictated by the breeder and depenting on many other things.
Some breeders will count everything: all costs connected with the litter and on this basis they calculate the price, and sometimes you will find very poor quality puppies for a very high price.
Some breeders them set the price on other basis. And you can buy very promissing puppies for a normal price.

It's as Pavel wrote - if a breeder is really good, if he is doing a lot for the dogs and for the breed: if he is importing the best lines, showing the dogs, working with them, if he choose the best stud dogs for his females, he will never be able to make profit. Just small example - some breeders from West Europe visit the summer camps in origin countries, some of them make the bonitations there. Should they add the costs of accommodation to the costs of the litter? It would make the prices horrible expensive.

So the truth is - the price is just simple number. I heard about breeders of Golden Retrievers (now I forgot but I think they live in Holland). They have one of the best kennels and also one of the most famous one. But they are selling the puppies for a low prices (attainable for everyone). But there is something else: not everyone can buy/get a puppy from them (even if you will offer some thousands of EUR). If you want a puppy you must offer something more than just a money and a "good home" and they must like you...

And I think it makes sense. Now I really unterstand their strategy. It applies also for Wolfdogs - if you have a lot of costs you will never be able to cover them selling the puppies. Because you will never be able to find 6-12 good owners if you ask the price 1500-2000 Eur or more... at least not in Europe.

So you will have to sell them for a normal price. And in this case in really doesn't matter of you ask 200-300 EUR more or less. You always incur a loos and it doesn't matter if your loss will be higher by ~1000 EURo...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

Most problematic is the other extreme, when "breeder" selling the puppy for very very low prices or give free of charge (yes, such cases we just know). Its a signal, that something is not OK. But high price, I mean, is OK.

I think both cases are OK. If someone want to give his puppies for free? Why not?

Only one thing is important: that the puppies will go to good homes; to responsible owners.

You mention the case with the puppies for free. I think it is the best example that the high price really doesn't matter; it doesn't help with anything. That it has nothing to do with selecting a good owner: three of those puppies went to Poland. One was buyied for a normal price. Two of them were given away for free. The last two puppies found great homes. You can meet them on meetings, dog shows, a.s.o. The puppy, which has been buyied was sold later to nowhere...

===================================
But back to the UK....

Susanna & Gianluca are right - the prices in Europe are much lower and there is no problem to get a very promissing puppy for 500-600 EUR in East Europe, or for 900-1000 EUR in West Europe. (I specially don't write "from Champion parents" because sometimes such puppies has really nothing to do with "promissing puppies"

).
But on the other hand the price asked by Paul and Mandy (£2000) is nothing special in UK.

Everyone who want to choose the first solution have to find a breeder who will be ready for keeping the puppy 10 months long. Who will be ready to make all these paperwork. And don't forget: 10 months is a very long time for a CzW. After all you will get an young dog who will not feel as a member of your pack...

...or...

...you can pay more a get a puppy from Paul. In this case you don't need to care for anything: you will get good sozialized puppy which you can bring up as you want.

I really don't understand the whole quarrel about the prices. If you don't want to overcome all problems connected with importing the puppy you can buy the puppy from Paul. The result will be: there will be another (good) owner in UK.
If you think £2000 is to much you can import a puppy from Europe. The result will be: there will be new blood imported to UK.
In both cases the english CzW population will profit from it....

Conor · 03-02-2004, 20:03

Hi

I picked my pup up on Saturday 31st January from Paul and Mandy. I wouldn't swap enjoying him now and watching him learn and play for a dog offered to me for a tenth of the price. He settled in less than 24 hours, has adjusted brilliantly, and it seems evident to me that I owe that to Paul, Mandy, Lynx and Cornelia. To put a CzW through the trauma of relocating after ten months in a secure environment wouldn't enter my mind, and I imagine it would end up costing more than I have paid for my dog quite easily. I have paid what I think is a fair price, and for that I have got a content, happy young pup, who can learn my ways at the best time for him to do so without undue stress - up until his 12th week.

The thought of unsettling a dog at 10 months of age, making him unhappy, and risking never having him feel secure as he needs to, makes the relative financial saving (which is probably not there) trivial. I have the dog I wanted, he is as I expected, and I am not anticpating any major probems. Any finacial savings that may be made, will be lost in the psychological debt that a dog moved hundreds of miles to a new, strange anf frightening environment would accrue. It is, in my opinion, supposed to be about the welfare of the animals, not scrimping to save a few quid.

03-02-2004, 15:15	#18
Navarre VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Roma Posts: 5,998	to mr. Pacino & Gaulirmon sorry for my bad english, I did not want to offend noone. I know that ther are silly law in your country to import dogs (and even come for tourism with dogs)...10 months are the minimum age to importa a dog ? however my wish is that when the CSW will be a more diffuse breed in your country, with many breeders and owners, the price of a puppy will be lower, because you haven't to import puppy from outside. so no more import-costs, but only the costs of every other breeder. simply ! __________________ Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

30-09-2011, 08:32	#4
Richard Graham Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 17	Hi thanks for the reply the breeding reretrictions are pending hip score

27-01-2004, 17:45	#6
Conor Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 14	Thanks Margo. This is just the sort of thing I am wanting people to tell me about. I want to soak up as much information as I can, and establish contact with those of you who are already in the know, or who want to discuss your own particular take on dogs, wolves and wolfdogs.

28-01-2004, 18:07	#8
gaulirmorn Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 17	I’m normally pretty easy going, but to be frank, this posting has really angered and sickened me … The Winders are currently going through one of the most traumatic times of their lives, and yet this forum seems more concerned with their pricing policy than showing the sympathy that is due! Do you honestly think that this is what Paul and Mandy need to be concerned with at present? If any of you have ever lost a dearly loved animal, then you might just understand what Paul and Mandy are going through. Remember how you felt when your animal died? The loss: the anger: the bitterness? Well, now add to that the 6 years of hard work that the Winders have endured to get to the point they are at now with this breed! 6 whole years of serious slog, battling red tape, procrastinators, recriminations, bureaucrats and scaremongers. Imagine the months of paperwork, telephone calls, and visitation to various authorities, breeders, shows, etc. Add the cost of your home (literally), the loss of your friends and your family whilst you follow your dream… All for that one, precious goal. To bring the Czech and Saarloos to people like us! That’s right, US! The ones who really do care enough to want to share our lives with one of these wonderful creatures, but who are just too scared, stupid, or idle to want to attempt an import ourselves! That’s a lot of time, effort and money well spent on our behalf! Did you honestly expect these puppies to be a few hundred pounds a throw? Pacino is an established kennel and it’s doing you a service just like any other business. The fee (put in simple terms for the layman) covers an eight week period; from birth to the collection of the puppy. That’s £250 per week for their trouble. Now think long and hard about what services you would need to import a Czech or Saarloos wolfdog from the continent. A vet, solicitor, kennel-hand, MP, trainer? Do you reckon you could get all these for £250 a week? That £2000 is peace of mind to people like me, it means WE don’t have to jump through the hoops that the Winders have for the past 6 years! They have very kindly put themselves through all the trouble, time wasting, rigmarole and bigotry so that we don’t have to! All the hard work has been done for us BEFORE the pups are born. And it’s Paul and Mandy who have all the worry and hard work to do AFTER the birth too! All WE have to do is feather the nest for the new arrival and play the waiting game till he/she is ready to come home with us! The Winders are respected breeders. They have spent years researching these breeds so as to offer the puppies the best possible upbringing; and offer US the best possible puppies. Paul and Mandy have striven to put US in the ‘driving seat’ so that we can bring home an eight-week old puppy, not a 10-month old juvenile. That’s a whole extra EIGHT months of quality time spent getting to know your new found friend, and NO transportation / separation trauma to the animal! Beginning to get the picture? The Winders need time to grieve over their loss, so why can’t you give it to them? This should NOT be time when Paul is drawn online to vindicate himself, or his kennel! The loss of Lynx should be the issue here. It’s bad enough losing your companion when you know it’s going to happen, but tragic accidents like this are even harder to accept. Think how you would feel if your animal was lost through trauma, and SHOW SOME RESPECT! Gaulirmorn

28-01-2004, 22:57	#9
Conor Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 14	I am in agreement with Gaulimorn. The Winders have my confidence, respect, and sympathy at their loss. I am taking one of Lynx's pups, and I will will be referring to Paul and mandy in the coming months for advice and help. I will also be offering to help them in anyway I can in getting the CzW established in the UK. My opinion is that they are a credit to dog breeding, as they are so approcahable, evidently care for their dogs with regard to who they go to, and are not out to wring every penny out of the litter by asking ridiculously inflated prices. A breed such as this has and will continue to arouse enormous curiosity from other dog breeders, owners, and the public in general. The owners of the first litter have a considerable responsibility, and debt of gratitude to both the Winders, and Cornelia Keizer - who I am told by Paul will also offer her advice to the new owners of Lynx's puppies as and when it is required. This will all be free, and more to the point, it will be sound advice based on DECADES of experience from the Winders, and Cornelia. I have owned pedigrees before, and paid considerable sums for them, but this is the forst time I have ever felt that I will be getting valid, concerned support. We should thank our lucky stars that we are the fortunate few, and we should be happy to ofer our support to Paul and Mandy in the coming months to help get this marvellous rare breed established with the great reputation it has justifiably earned on the continent. I feel as though I have been granted a privilege, and given the opportunity to take up a rewarding new hobby - thanks to Paul, Mandy, Cornelia, and Lynx. Finally consider this: anyone wanting to help Paul and Mandy will probably have the opportunity to breed their animal should they wish. I don't think for a minute that Paul and Mandy are anticipating doing it all alone without wanting to refer to the blood line that is Lynx's legacy. They will be asking us, to get involved. You will make your money back on your initial lay without any problem. I will be thanking Paul and Mandy profusely on Saturday, and I will be mailing Cornelia Keizer on Saturday, to thank her for helping me to realise a dream. Any one else who is taking one of Lynx's pups; it would be good to have contact with you, and hopefully we can share our experiences of our new dogs, and maybe pool resources to help Paul and Mandy in the future. Conor

29-01-2004, 14:22	#11
gaulirmorn Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 17	Thank you for your kind response, Paul. I think everyone will agree with me when I say that there is no need to apologise for your words or actions in recent days. It’s impossible to speak from the head when the heart is grieving, no matter how professional you are. I am certain that no one will think any less of you for it. And thank you, Conor. Best of luck with your new found bundle! You'll probably need it! Gaulirmorn

30-01-2004, 21:21	#14
Conor Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 14	Hi everybody. Now we have it from Pavel, and I understand that he knows is stuff, so hopefully we can lay this argument to rest. I am visiting Paul and Mandy tomorrow to collect my pup. I can't describe the feeling of exhiliration I have now at 7.15pm. Everyone I have metioned him to is waiting to see him with anticipation. This guy is going to be a star in my town, and I know that with Paul and Mandys continued support, he's going to promote this new breed in the UK in the noblest of fashions. I already know he is money well spent! Conor

03-02-2004, 14:02	#17
gaulirmorn Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 17	Hi Paul, I too await the response to your above question with interest. Only last night, I spoke to my mother regarding the Saarloos bitch that I hope you will bless me with in the future. Mum was amazed at the ‘excellent price’ (her words) that you were quoting for these puppies. (Obviously, as yet the Saarloos price is to be arranged, but I am expecting to pay around the same as for the Czechs). My mother and I were discussing the issues raised on this site regarding costs, and the fact that the ONLY other option available to wanna-be owners is importation. We have no idea how much the actual fees would be in total, but we KNOW that the breakdown of importation cost is a whole lot more than what is being asked by Pacino. Unfortunately, people fail to see that the ‘cost’ equals both the finance AND time scale involved! Firstly, you are probably going to find your breeder on mainland Europe, so you have a number of places to search. France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, ‘the world’s your oyster’ so long as you can get around the language barrier. And how many breeders will be willing to raise your animal for you for the first 10 months of its life? It’s asking quite a lot, especially considering that you might back out of the sale or be blocked by bureaucracy before you can import the animal. Once you have selected your breeder you’ll have to pay them a visit, or two… Actually, we reckon that you would have to visit the breeder a minimum of three times; once to vet them; second to choose the puppy and third to collect him/her. And it always pays to have a good working relationship with your breeder, so even MORE visits would be advisable. So, you’ve found and visited your breeder and you’re quite happy with him/her, and now you’re playing the waiting game. Waiting for the bitch to come into season, waiting to see if a mating will take place, waiting to see if the mating has been successful. Waiting for the whelping, the birth, to pick a puppy. And what happens if you want a bitch and the mother only has three dogs? Then you have to wait for another bitch to come into season, or maybe the same bitch (which could be twelve months or more), you might even be forced to find another breeder! Okay, so now you’ve got your prize! You have to take into consideration that this breeder is rearing your puppy for the first 10 months of it’s life you will have little or no imput into it’s upbringing. However, you WILL be expected to compensate the breeder for all the costs involved in the upkeep and training of the animal. Over 10 months that’s going to add up considerably! Then there are vets bills, what happens if your animal has a medical problem that needs sorting out. Nothing serious enough to affect the purchase of the animal, but enough to affect your wallet… At some stage your pride and joy will be ready to join you in the UK, but before then you’ll need to sort out the pet passport, which includes having to comply to certain specifics, jabs, chips, blood tests, etc. How much will this dent your pocket? I suppose in the general scheme, these will be tiny amounts when you compare them to what has ALREADY been racked up! Then there’s the application for the pet passport. All that form filling and red tape. What happens if your animal fails the screening for whatever reason? More payment to the breeder for continuing to look after the animal for you, and that’s providing they are willing and able to do so! Then there is the distress caused to the animal during the hand-over and importation period. Everything that he/she had come to accept and depend upon over the past 10 months is suddenly snatched away… He/she has new owners, with quirky mannerisms, and strange smells. The new surroundings are intimidating and frightening. Sounds and scents are unfamiliar, there’s a change of diet and the walks are shorter, noisier and at the wrong times! The animal wants to flee, to return to ‘the norm’. Do you have the expertise and understanding to be able to nurture the dog through this difficult time, and succeed? I’m sure there are other matters that I have forgotten about, or do not even know of, but the point is that is would be a FAR greater drain on your time and money to import than paying the Pacino fee! My mum and I reckon it would cost you somewhere in the region of £8000 and about 2 years to import a wolfdog from Europe, and the animal’s welfare is paramount! So in the general theme of things, I’ll be more than happy to hand the Winders my £2000 in return for my eight week old Saarloos, safe in the knowledge that I’ve saved my puppy distress, and myself time AND money! Gaulirmorn

03-02-2004, 20:03	#20
Conor Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 14	Hi I picked my pup up on Saturday 31st January from Paul and Mandy. I wouldn't swap enjoying him now and watching him learn and play for a dog offered to me for a tenth of the price. He settled in less than 24 hours, has adjusted brilliantly, and it seems evident to me that I owe that to Paul, Mandy, Lynx and Cornelia. To put a CzW through the trauma of relocating after ten months in a secure environment wouldn't enter my mind, and I imagine it would end up costing more than I have paid for my dog quite easily. I have paid what I think is a fair price, and for that I have got a content, happy young pup, who can learn my ways at the best time for him to do so without undue stress - up until his 12th week. The thought of unsettling a dog at 10 months of age, making him unhappy, and risking never having him feel secure as he needs to, makes the relative financial saving (which is probably not there) trivial. I have the dog I wanted, he is as I expected, and I am not anticpating any major probems. Any finacial savings that may be made, will be lost in the psychological debt that a dog moved hundreds of miles to a new, strange anf frightening environment would accrue. It is, in my opinion, supposed to be about the welfare of the animals, not scrimping to save a few quid.