Can of Worms: Update on Mutara dogs?

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by massimo

Pavel...there are shows...and SHOWS.
For me dog show depends a lot on JUDGE.

Hmmm and tell me, who is the JUDGE for you ?

Originally Posted by massimo

And it seems you are not replying...can these dogs participate and win dogshows in CZ or SK....maybe even Club shows?

Yes, they can, because we canr regulate it. Show participatons is according show rules from FCI. If the dog have FCI pedigee, then can participate.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Hmmm and tell me, who is the JUDGE for you ?

Somebody who has REAL knowledge of the breed, who has judged CSW dogs for many many years, who has bonitation skills too, and who I feel will be as objective as possible and impartial.
Those are judges I would do (AND HAVE DONE) thousands of Km for and have my trust.
They are less than the number of fingers on my hand.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by massimo

Somebody who has REAL knowledge of the breed, who has judged CSW dogs for many many years, who has bonitation skills too, and who I feel will be as objective as possible and impartial.
Those are judges I would do (AND HAVE DONE) thousands of Km for and have my trust.
They are less than the number of fingers on my hand.

Massimo, judge can be the absolutely best, but today valuation by shows is very funny. Please read FCI show rules, e.g. which dog can get "excellent" and "very good". And thes see the show results, doesnt matter from which judge. From results is our breed the best and very near to absolutely ideal, which is decribed in breed standart . And its not true as we all know. I dont know any judge, which valuate according FCI rules.

[Pavel]

For people, which dont know abou it :
http://www.fci.be/circulaires/23-2010-annex-en.pdf

"EXCELLENT may only be awarded to a dog which comes very close to the ideal standard of the breed, which is presented in excellent condition, displays a harmonious, well-balanced temperament, is of high class and has excellent posture. Its superior characteristics in respect of its breed permit that minor imperfections can be ignored; it must however have the typical features of its sex.
VERY GOOD may only be awarded to a dog which possesses the typical features of its breed, which has well-balanced proportions and is in correct condition. A few minor faults may be tolerated but none of a morphological nature. This award can only be granted to a dog that shows class."

"CACIB – Certificat d’Aptitude au Championnat International de Beauté de la FCI
The only dogs which can be taken into consideration for the CACIB are those which have been awarded "EXCELLENT 1st". A CACIB can only be awarded if the dog in question has been assessed as being of superior quality. The CACIB is not automatically and compulsorily linked to the "EXCELLENT 1st”."

[AMERICANI]

Massimo, mi dispiace per fare come guasta festa, ma perche tu sei rombo cazz'? I haven't seen anything/ any post from you which is positive or constructive at all.... If you want to give us a hand in improving this breed-- can you please lighten up and show direction instead of contempt.. thanx.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

Massimo, mi dispiace per fare come guasta festa, ma perche tu sei rombo cazz'? I haven't seen anything/ any post from you which is positive or constructive at all.... If you want to give us a hand in improving this breed-- can you please lighten up and show direction instead of contempt.. thanx.

I don't know you and you surely don't know me.
Many readers of this forum instead do and honestly i don't think i don't write positive or constructive posts.
"give us a hand in improving this breed"

wow...you really do much to improve the breed, and you are modest for sure.
I was very clear in my post, not sure you understood most of it, must be my very bad American-English, sorry.
"ma perchè tu sei rombo cazz" would be translated into "why are you such a dick breaker" and is not a very polite expression.
Sorry I am not used to write in these terms and would appreciate if you did the same.
Maybe you will come to some Summer camp in SK or CZ as I do almost every year and we can laugh in front of a glass of beer but PLEASE do not judge what you don't know and most of all....what you don't want to hear.

tilll next beer!
massimo

[massimo]

@Pavel
I see your point of view and these new arguments seems interesting, maybe we can open a new/different thread about "dog show results and judging" or something like that?

[AMERICANI]

I (Jason Young of AmeriCani Kennels) am very dedicated to developing this breed in the USA! I personally hold anyone who has decided to retain or not disclose any helpful or useful information or available puppies which are PRIME for a breeding program (when requested) personally responsible for any future failure involving the development of the CsV . If you do not fall under this criteria, then you shouldn't get upset! And if you are a silent culprit, then shame on you. I have never claimed to be a pro at anything, but I damn sure know how to find info!!! I firmly stand behind my fellow American enthusiasts when they want the most useful info..... Honestly, I think we have been given about 10% as a whole. (except those who have offered help with health issues! I am HAPPY with you guys!) I think it might be a good Idea to help a possible improvement instead of being part of a larger problem... I really get frustrated trying to decipher all of these posts by everyone when sometimes no post at all is a good idea... If I ask a question, I have thought it best for everyone to read and respond. I have exhausted countless hours reading lots of useful info, yet LOTS of circle jerk crap. All I ask from EVERYONE is to keep open forums OPEN, and private messages for any quirks or small issues which may (in the long run) become a private issue..... My recent experiences have frustrated me to the point of posting this! I'm guilty of talking trash in open forums, but that is not what they are for..

[massimo]

wow...I think this last post deserves a whole thread too!

I will not make this become a private discussion between me and you and honestly I'm not in the mood for ANY personal discussion, I'm not interested.
Good luck in improving the breed, training your dogs, breeding healthy and brave dogs with interesting Pedigrees and great morphology.
TILL THEN....Take it easy man!

[AMERICANI]

I sent you a private message before you sent this! LOL... I have requested some private input from you,,, I feel if you are interested & willing to post openly, then why not privately? Hey man, I'm not here to stir up problems.... I'm here to solve them... or find others who can - if I can't. What would you do if you began something that required lots of USEFUL input from other people? I like the beer idea... call me sometime

[hanninadina]

Mass:
I would like to add just one thing: I understand all the actions taken against the "mutara" issue but.... a careful and clever eye can SEE easily that wolves have been used in other occasions too...their offspring being used and VERY wolfish dogs being bred but... because "normal CSW" dogs have been declared...these dogs can enter our gene-pool without any problems or actions...only those who "know" or "have heard of" can avoid them.[/quote]



And what is your suggestion? To write it down in this data base in wolfdog, so everyone can decide to to use the offspring of this "wolfish" csw? Or only a few know about it and can make their own hype of having/getting most wolfish csw?

One thing, Massimo, I do not like when people are talking about Mutaras as if they are all over because they know nothing. The problem with these people is that they start their let me call it "head cinema", their start their own movie. And that is why gossip and rumours start. Hope ou understand what I mean. And if you see now the problems the csw have in general - getting into heat, break up heat, dm, zw pp. - it seems to me, that a lot of breeders only bred for "old blood line". It is use for nothing, old blood line. Healthy dogs that must breeding for, good wolfish looking.

Christian

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by massimo

@Pavel
I see your point of view and these new arguments seems interesting, maybe we can open a new/different thread about "dog show results and judging" or something like that?

Massimo, its no sense, because we dont have chance to change it. But i want to say only, that show result dont say absolutelly anything about quality of dog.

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

ma perche tu sei rombo cazz'?

GREAT QUESTION !