Mixes of pure CsWs?

[BeatriceSlavinschi]

Hello everybody,

This seems to me a serious topic and it's a pitty that Jasmine did not answer to your questions regarding that litter advertisement. Maybe she was not online ... I'm also curious to find out.
Christian, are you sure about your Myla? Because I looked at her pictures and I also met her sister Myra this year in Romania and it doesn't seems to me to be a higly content czw. Neither the apearance, nor the behaviour.
This wolfdog surely looks more like a higly content:

[jasmine]

I Romania was Crying Wolf Myra"s dauther...Myla von Neckartal.....not Myra Crying Wolf !
Serious topic.......hahahahaha....I have topic year by year....in this period, when other breeders would like to sale their pups and they think the best way to fall into discredit others.....And those who knows me and my dogs and take a vote beside me also become bad person.......
It is not serious...it is disgusting !!!!

[BeatriceSlavinschi]

Sorry, Edit post her reply while I was writing.

[BeatriceSlavinschi]

Anyway Edit, the idea was that Myra and Myla doesn't look to me like highly content wolfdogs as Christian said.

[martiou07]

Originariamente inviata da BeatriceSlavinschi

This wolfdog surely looks more like a higly content:

Hello Beatrice, Demoniak is another subject...

[solowolf]

Originariamente inviata da martiou07

Hello Beatrice, Demoniak is another subject...

hi been reading these posts seems everyone is getting there bit in so bit of education before you start jumping to f2 and so on, look at mother and father of Demoniak,, mother has only 5 generations back repf3, 5 generations back Leidy pure wolf and 6 generations back Sarik wolf,,,,,the father of Demoniak has 5 generations back sarik and also sarik 6 back,, so its not rocket sience is it Demoniak is what we call in dog breeding terms a throw back and a realy nice one at that wish i had him in my kennels thats for sure, dont confuse ignorance with jealousy anyone saying they would not want this wolfdog would be crazy it is stunning,

[hanninadina]

Of course Demoniak is thrilling. And he has a very nice and open and vey friendly character!!! And long legs. I saw him in worlddogshow.

I did not read if Edit answered in the other thread how it comes that Hannah, neutered got puppies at the 1st of nove.

I can show you a lot of F 1 and F 2 animals who do not look like a "wolf". I can only say, that Myla´s behaviour is much more intensiv like my american wolfdogs and the others I know are and of course more than the F 2 finish wolfdogs, I do know. And her 5 pups from 2008 have very long legs, narrow chest, big heads.

I do not care what she is for real, because I never had my americans if I would not had the expierence with crazy Myla Crying wolf.

I do not know what Edit is breeding. She lives perfect to breed even wolves.... hahahahaha.

[solowolf]

Originariamente inviata da hanninadina

Of course Demoniak is thrilling. And he has a very nice and open and vey friendly character!!! And long legs. I saw him in worlddogshow.

I did not read if Edit answered in the other thread how it comes that Hannah, neutered got puppies at the 1st of nove.

I can show you a lot of F 1 and F 2 animals who do not look like a "wolf". I can only say, that Myla´s behaviour is much more intensiv like my american wolfdogs and the others I know are and of course more than the F 2 finish wolfdogs, I do know. And her 5 pups from 2008 have very long legs, narrow chest, big heads.

I do not care what she is for real, because I never had my americans if I would not had the expierence with crazy Myla Crying wolf.

I do not know what Edit is breeding. She lives perfect to breed even wolves.... hahahahaha.

if you know this then you can accept that this is a throw back if Edit wanted F1 F2 or pure wolf she would only have to ask me and i would be happy to supply her with one of my pups but I know for fact Edit has no interest in other wolfdogs or wolves that is for breeding, regards ronnie

[Jennin Lauma]

It seems pretty bad that half of the CsV people are trying to breed "working dogs" for IPO etc, and the other half just wants to have FCI recognized wolfdogs that would look as wolfy as possible; -some don't even mind the character or the health, if the animals just have some nice wolfy traits. Some are even ready to manipulate the pedigrees and having pure or high content wolves/wolfdogs mixed into the breed for the wolfy looks.
My personal oppinion is that it is no coinsidence that some of the individuals suddenly come out very wolfy allthough their parents over several generations are average looking & behaving CsV.

I am not against or for either of the sides, but I am just wondering where is this breed going in its near future? Where do the breeders & owners want to take it nowadays (when it is not a military experience/dog anymore)? And isn't it possible to introduce new (wolf &/or dog) blood into the breed (if nessecary) under the Kennel club's supervision & special licence?
What purpose is having pedigree databaces when it seems that there are widely known "inside secrets" among the active breeders & owners about the truth? Does someone somewhere have a secret "inside databace" too, where the hereditary illnesses & behavioural issues of the true anchestors of certain lines & individuals are kept?

I have never understood people who take a breed of dog and starts making their own coctails with falce pedigrees and/or breeding individuals with obvious faults or even illnesses, just because they would want to have the breed different from what it is. -Why they just don't change into another breed or start openly breeding a new one for the traits they are looking for?

I know this is flammable subject, -specially on this forum I'd suppose. But I felt brave enough to ask these questions, since I am bored to reading & hearing some CsV owners claiming how their animals are "just dogs among the other breeds" and far away from "hybrids".
(And I know the problematic in the term 'hybrid' when talking about two Canis Lupus sub species, but for clarification wanted to use different word from wolfdog).

Edit: P.S. Especially when the situation for the breed is allready bad (banned) in some countries, I am surpriced that the breed club & the original Kennel club don't have actions against such manipulatings of the pedigrees.
Some countries (like Finland for example) are allready having discussions about making the DNA testings compulsory for registration of the pure bred dogs. It is no wonder since falce pedigrees are the unfortunet reality. But usually it is within individuals of the same breed. -Not mixtures of different breeds or pure wolves/hc WDs...

[jasmine]

áááááááááááááááááááá new thing about my kennel : Mixes .........

Christian ,
I must tell you my secret : I have never used wolf or wolfmixes in my breeding. My dogs have wolfish look because I use old, wolfish bloodlines, thanks to Peter Krotkovsky!

Edit

[Jennin Lauma]

Nowadays when the DNA testing is so easy and not even expencive,
I truly hope it will become compulsory routine procedure soon.
Maybe the fights against the many hereditary deseases of pure bred dogs will then actually have some effect...

[Mikael]

Originariamente inviata da Jennin Lauma

Nowadays when the DNA testing is so easy and not even expencive,
I truly hope it will become compulsory routine procedure soon.

In Sweden (and I think allso in Belgium) you must make a DNA test to prove that the bitch and male on the pedigree are the parents to every puppy in a new litter.

This in Sweden are only on Saarloos and Cs Vlcak breed, so that no wolf (or GSD can bee added)

Best regards / Mikael

[Jennin Lauma]

Originariamente inviata da Mikael

In Sweden (and I think allso in Belgium) you must make a DNA test to prove that the bitch and male on the pedigree are the parents to every puppy in a new litter.

This in Sweden are only on Saarloos and Cs Vlcak breed, so that no wolf (or GSD can bee added)

Best regards / Mikael

Thanks for the info. I think that should be the case in every dog breed.
-True, verified pedigrees for all!
I hope it will happen in Finland soon. It has been discussed for a while now since every year more and more false pedigrees come out.

[Mikael]

Originariamente inviata da Jennin Lauma

Thanks for the info. I think that should be the case in every dog breed.
-True, verified pedigrees for all!
I hope it will happen in Finland soon. It has been discussed for a while now since every year more and more false pedigrees come out.

I think in about 5-6 years ALL breeds in Sweden will need it to

That will STOP all the false pedigree´s for good ! Or at least a new start of mixes

Very best regards / M

[jefta]

when someone decided to add a wolf even dna test will be no blockade, just raide costs (buying/importing only tatooed csv and make wolf the same tatoo)

[Jennin Lauma]

Originariamente inviata da jefta

when someone decided to add a wolf even dna test will be no blockade, just raide costs (buying/importing only tatooed csv and make wolf the same tatoo)

In Finland it must be microchip. The tattoos are no longer accepted.
It will get pretty difficult to manipulate the pedigrees after the compulsory DNA samples.
If it would not take away all the misspresented pedigrees, it will atleast take away most of them, I believe.
Because I doubt that many breeders have the contacts & abilities & scills (or even will) to go as far as getting identical microchips for false parents.
How to do it? I am no expert on this matter, and I don't know how easy it would be to get another chip with identical code. But one way would be to kill the original animal and cut the chip out of it and replace it to another. But that act, -as my opinion-, reguires abit more than just a common irresponsible breeder/liar...

Anyways... I think it is a good start, and will help fighting against false pedigrees. there is no good reason to NOT to reguire it nowadays when it is simple and easy, and not even expensive procedure.

[Vaiva]

In Lithuania dogs, born after 2011 01 01 will have to have chips and also there is a possibility to make DNR tests - if Kennel club has a doubt, they can tell you to do it. And in a small country, where everybody knows each other it is, it is difficult to keep secrets

[Jennin Lauma]

Originariamente inviata da Vaiva

And in a small country, where everybody knows each other it is, it is difficult to keep secrets

Yep. It's the same in here.
And (sorry, goes little OT) that is the same reason why Finnish people laugh about the "No wolf Tamaskans". Everybody here knows the truth; the animals/individuals.
But it's another topic that one.

[*Satu]

Originariamente inviata da Jennin Lauma

In Finland it must be microchip. The tattoos are no longer accepted.
It will get pretty difficult to manipulate the pedigrees after the compulsory DNA samples.
If it would not take away all the misspresented pedigrees, it will atleast take away most of them, I believe.
Because I doubt that many breeders have the contacts & abilities & scills (or even will) to go as far as getting identical microchips for false parents.
How to do it? I am no expert on this matter, and I don't know how easy it would be to get another chip with identical code. But one way would be to kill the original animal and cut the chip out of it and replace it to another. But that act, -as my opinion-, reguires abit more than just a common irresponsible breeder/liar...

Anyways... I think it is a good start, and will help fighting against false pedigrees. there is no good reason to NOT to reguire it nowadays when it is simple and easy, and not even expensive procedure.

Tattoo is correct also in this moment...

1.1.2001 identification system (either Life Chip (Indexel) - Data or Mars, or microchip
tattoo) is mandatory for the official Kennel Club dog shows, trials and competitions. The Kennel Club
accepts from 1.1.2009, all in accordance with the ISO 11784 standard microchips do not have the country code.
ISO 11784 standard chips have been approved06/01/2009 .