What kind of dog is this - mixes by Passo del Lupo?

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Margo

Honestly I'm very dissapointed about these mixes - I really though they will be MUCH more wolfish... Mixes were though to IMPROVE our breed but to be honest - WHO will use such MIX which is worser looking than REAL CzW? I don't think ANYBODY will risk his opinion as responsible breeder and use such mix for breeding.... Anyway NONE of the serious breeders I know...

WHY? Because so far I must say I saw many PUREBREED CzW which have 100x better body and 500x more wolfish heards than these mixes...

sorry Margo, I already spoke to you about this in Lazne...how many S. litter dogs did you really see??
If you speak about Sangria alone..then maybe I could even agree with you but...not if you speak about the entire litter, sorry.

I will make a small example, just to help you understand:
do you remember Reggio Emilia Bonitation?? were the scandal all started??
many people started shouting scandal after seeing bonitation made to Sangria, a honestly untypical CSW.
Ehm...but during that bonitation there were Sangria, Sanika and Seiko (according to official data given by italian club site) and, unofficially I know there was a fourth one too...
How many people "recognised" the other 3? not many, almost nobody...
why?? because they were more typical CSW than many others which I could mention if I wanted but I respect their breeders...however more typical in head and structure than many CSW today!
So...I would be cautious with the info you give, if you do not really have all info yourself; it would simpy be a misleading information.
I respect you and all the efforts you make and also many statements but "maybe" your statements would be different (more specific on Sangria alone and not on the whole litter) if you saw them.

The Italian Club posted some pics tacken during Reggio Emilia Bonitation
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco....ini/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.
and my friend Kika was there too and has her pics published:
http://www.pilamaya.it/album%20bonit...r07/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics and a couple of "undirect" pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.

I wonder why nobody pointed these dogs out?? I know, because it is very very difficult to tell the difference!!
And, allow me to say, I am not experienced like you but...the F2 at the beginning of our breed looked like german shephards...
nothing like CSW so....i disagree..IF these dogs were really coming from were you say they are coming, i would really be astonished by the result of the Mutara experiment.
even when son of german shephard and wolf were mated with real CSW (kazan's puppies)
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/2480
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/924
they don't look like CSW.
If somebody told me this dog's grandfather is a german shephard...I would have difficulties to believe it!
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco..../PICT0380.html

[Nebulosa]

Massimo, the results of the Mutara experiment will never be good and never will be right, it's easy to say why, was put a mutt hybrid in the breed.
Now can born some dogs who is seems to the CzW, as born dogs seems more Hybrid like, that heteronegese of the litter is common even if you cross 2 pure dogs with completelly different lines, when more these mix be cross with pure Czw, more seems they will be with Czw, when arrive the F5 generation of dilution, difficultly will be for see a more big difference than something out standard normal defect for the breed, the problem will not appear when the mix blood be worked open in line with Czw, when the linebreeding and inbreeding be done at the CzW side, it's ok for hide the hybrids and see they as dogs seems to Czw.

But, I only see something about Mutara's mix here, and ever for show something unexpected as these mix in dog show, already a F2 or F3 ( I no wonder if have F3 already), as the presence of these mix in PDL kennel and something not advised, all that was almost hide, so, you really think that it will be much far?
Supose, some years, the Mutara's already very well diluted and already well mix in some CzW lines, all that hide as it is now, one of this "come from mix" line dog fall in one not well informed breeder, who see that one side line of his dog is 'rare', supose that this breeder start to made linebreeding or imbreeding in the mutara's line side, so, won't be much time for we see big differences betwen pure line dogs and mix line dogs again.
Canadian wolf and GSD mix is much different from Carpatian wolf and pure GSD.

If was for 'save' the breed with an open blood in the line ( I think and agree, that is really needed) do that right and wise.
CzW comes from Carpathian wolf, that cannot be changed for preserve the breed, have lines of CzW that is more "GSD like", so, can use these CzW pure dogs with an Carpatian wolf for open, do all that legally and with the knowledge of all people interessed in the breed, nothing hide.

Use a mutt hybrid as Mutara's and PDL do now, only will put the breed more close to extinction.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Massimo, the results of the Mutara experiment will never be good and never will be right, it's easy to say why, was put a mutt hybrid in the breed..

sorry Paula but i really do not understand your post.
I am not speaking about "mutaras" being good or bad, i am not interested in mutaras at the moment, just CSW.
I only wanted to "correct" margo's statement saying that s. litter were not like CSW and not tipical and more looking like Saarlos. having seen them personally (not just backtalk or hypothesis or reporting other people's experiences ....) they are not as Margo was pointing out.
The rest I do not care and is NOT part of this thread...already many posts have the same argument...I was just underlining the difference between "sure statement" and "wrong statement"

massimo

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

The Italian Club posted some pics tacken during Reggio Emilia Bonitation
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco....ini/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.
and my friend Kika was there too and has her pics published:
http://www.pilamaya.it/album%20bonit...r07/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics and a couple of "undirect" pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.

Massimo, it is not about the LOOK. I told you: for me - basing on the photos (I have MUCH more than just the nicest published by Helena) - Sangria is not a typical CzW in look. That's all....

BUT... I DO NOT CARE IF OTHER 'S' LITTER DOGS LOOK BETTER Why? Because they are not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs... END.

I can show you GREAT Saarloos Wolfhounds which look better than many CzWs. But they are also not Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. I know GREAT WOLFISH Siberian Huskies which look better than some CzWs. But I will never think about using this dogs for breedings CzW... Because we are breeding PUREBREED Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs - not Saarloos, not Husky and not mixes... That's the point.

"S"-litter are MIXES. Even if you will find a nice dog from this connection it will be not a reason to use it in breeding. Because such dogs do not have any thing to do with our breeds. EVEN is some of them will look similar...

Let's say it again: GERMAN; SLOVAKIAN AND CZECH BREED CLUBS are STRONGLY against these mixes. And it is well know for everybody who is more interested in this breed. So I'm still shocked that knowing about it the Italian breeder used the whole in the FCI law and registered one of the mixes (which were forbiden by Czech Club so it was not possible to breed with them in Czech Republic) and made this litter.

Sorry, but I say it again - non RESPONSIBLE breeder which knows the whole background would make something like this and EVER breed with banned dogs AND/OR their offsprings...

Sure we can critisite breeders breeding with shy dogs, with ugly dogs, with dogs with bad HD aso... But their actions are NOTHING compared to destroying our breed like the Mutara gate...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

I wonder why nobody pointed these dogs out?? I know, because it is very very difficult to tell the difference!!
And, allow me to say, I am not experienced like you but...the F2 at the beginning of our breed looked like german shephards...
nothing like CSW so....i disagree..IF these dogs were really coming from were you say they are coming, i would really be astonished by the result of the Mutara experiment.
even when son of german shephard and wolf were mated with real CSW (kazan's puppies)

I will write you three descriptions of three different BREEDS:

- CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG
"the crossing of a German Shepherd Dog with a Carpathian wolf".
PUREBREED WORKING German Shepherd Dog and REAL EUROPEAN Wolf...


- SAARLOOS WOLFHOUND
"A neighbour of L. Saarloos had owned a black male Timberwolf, so that there is the supposition that this wolf also came to the breeding insert. Actually the current Saarloos wolfdogs see much more similar to American Timberwolf than the European wolf, that originated both "Fleurs" from . Also the good social behavior speaks in favour for the Timberwolf. "

- MUTARA
No quotation just facts They are crosses of WHITE TIMBER WOLF Lupina:

and GSD like dog Armin (he has NO PEDIGREE but looks a little bit similar to German Shepherd dogs even if the owner of Armin says it is a mix of more breeds than just GSD):



==============================
1) As you can see basing on the origin Mutaras ARE NOT and WILL NEVER be Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs... The have MUCH MORE common with Saartloos Wolfhounds...

2) Even if the father of the new Mutaras is a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog the crossings are not CzW.... Or would you really say that if I will cross my female CzW with Shar-pei and at last one of the puppies will RESEMBLE CzW it can be called a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog....

3) Sure you can show ugly pictures of the first crossings of CzW but please do not compare them with 'S' litter. They have really nothing to do.
First mixes F1, F2, F3, F4 of CzW were crossings of GSD and European Wolves. NO MORE.
Mutaras and 'S' litter have blood of Tundra Wolves, CzW, GSD, Malamut and probably many more (thanks to Armin)... They are very mixed mixes...

4) Do you remember HOW the first wolfdogs were selected? It based on their working abilities, everything was tested. Many puppies in the litters were killed if they were not GOOD enough. Many dogs NEVER had any litter if they were not GOOD enough.
How looks the selection of Mutaras? Who makes the selection? NOBODY - it is just production of the next generations. Which EXAMS they passed? NONE. There is NO selection...

5) Who will take the responsibility for the new mixes? Who will be responsible if one of the dogs will behave like his ancestors and KILL someone? The breed will be punished and not the person which introduced THIS mixes to our breed.

The Mutaras has genetic fault - Lupina was born as wolfish grey puppy but in the time the colour turned to white. It is pretty common by Tundra Wolves but FORBIDDEN by CzW - white CZW have been never seen and such dog will get disqualification. ALWAYS. So my question: who will pay satisfaction to EVERY offspring of the Mutara which will turn to white colour with the time? What will be if there will appear RED CzW - colour which is typical for American Wolves and breeds like Husky and Saarloos but FORBIDDEN by CzW? Because even if the white or red colour will apprear in the 5-10-15 generation the ONLY responsible ancestor will be the Mutara in the blood...

6) Sorry you were not in Slovakia during the Conference in Bratislava. It was told there that there were problems during the registration of CzW by FCI because the FCI said: they DON WANT another breed like Saarloos. But FCI made special board which examineted the offsprings of American Wolves and European Wolves. The results was: they are TOTALLY DIFFERENT. ONLY the crosses of European Wolves have working abilities. The EUROPEAN Wolves were the reason why Hartl reached good results so fast. The difference gave us green light by FCI.
And now? Some people want to add blood of NON-TRAINABLE mixes. To make them to behave like Saarloos or other crosses. Why some people want to degenerate our breed? I know some breeders do not care about the character - they NEVER made any exams and are not interested in anything which is called WORK. But many people decided for CzW exactly because of this... If someone like character of Saarloos - BUYS Saarloos. If someone like the character of Husky - BUYS Husky. If some CzW breeders not accept it they should think about changing the profile: please breed SAARLOOS or HUSKY and DO NOT change character of our breed... Especially of you do not have the brightest idea about it...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by massimo

The Italian Club posted some pics tacken during Reggio Emilia Bonitation
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco....ini/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.
and my friend Kika was there too and has her pics published:
http://www.pilamaya.it/album%20bonit...r07/index.html
in these pics there are 2 direct pics and a couple of "undirect" pics of very nice and typical CSW...but S. litter dogs ... not Sangria.

You mean Seiko? Sorry but it is hard to see a lot of her... The photos of Sangria are better. But you right - he is MUCH worser than the rest... But look on the masks.... Do you have the whole size pictures?

But I want to mention two things:

- I see one of the breeders was in the bonitation comittee. It is FORBIDEN - he was not allowed to judge his OWN dogs... I do not mean from his kennel but in his OWN property... Even if the dog is showed by someone else...

- I see the judge bonitated his own dog (Selly Passo del Lupo). It is also forbidden...

I know Italian Club do not keep to the bonitation rules and it is the reason why italian bonitations are not internationally accepted. But there are also the rules of honesty...

[massimo]

thanks for moving the argument to a different thread, i was about to ask you myself!

-i must repeat i am NOT interested in Mutaras, i just wanted to underline for those less informed that it is not true that S. litter look all like Saarloses or do not look like CSW.

I see the judge bonitated his own dog (Selly Passo del Lupo). It is also forbidden...

-Selly pdl is owned by Jindra but was not bonitated that day,
take a look:
http://www.clubcanelupocecoslovacco.it/bonMTC2007.htm
only Sangria, Sanika, Seiko.
Were do you get this wrong information??


maybe you didn't read well what I wrote before...

Ehm...but during that bonitation there were Sangria, Sanika and Seiko (according to official data given by italian club site) and, unofficially I know there was a fourth one too...

Maybe Selly was there but not bonitated because Jindra, the owner, was the judge!

- I see one of the breeders was in the bonitation comittee.

let me understand, I'm not an expert in rules:
1) if you are judge, you shouldn't make bonitation to a dog which is your OWN propriety, but I showed before that Selly wasn't bonitated.
2) if you are in the bonitation comittee you shouldn't make bonitation to your own dog? I'm confused, that happens all the time!
just look at the last bonitations:
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/134.html
Daiva is owner of Geryon and co-owner of Waidila and Walkiria
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/133.html
you are in comitee and co-owner of Garuda
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/98.html
Vaclav is in breeding committe and owner of Peggy
Surely I must have misunderstood your statement here!
massimo

[hanninadina]

Massimo, there is some truth in what Margo wrote, that the selection of F 1, F 2 of Csw was made because of working abilities of the dogs and not in first case because they look like wolves. There is a strong reason, they were made for working at the border! The outlook is in first case not so important. And sure it is true taking a timber wolf for crossbreeding in csw breed you get a - we don´t know what getting in a few years, looking for the colour of the coat for example -. You see the pics from young Lupina being grey and turned to be white in elder years.

But Margo it is not true that you want be able to work with cross like Mutara, because there is Armin and of course F 2 generation is taken a csw, I hope a working class csw. So the genes will be stronger and stronger getting a working csw -crossbreed -. And Massimo, sorry to say, you put in this nice pic from F 2 Mutara where you can not belive grandpa is a german shepard.... This is true but I can belive that grandma is a pure wolf!

Training a crossbreed = wolf-mix = not to say Hybrid is possible, but surely it will be difficult to train defense.

Everybody has his own opinion. It is very interesting but difficult too. It is not good but please Margo remember in GSD Breeding. today the show dogs look awful, but this was made by gsd breeding comittee in Augsburg - center of gsd in germany - by themselfs, although there are lots lots of gsd breeders. times change sometimes. And today you have to kind of gsd, the working ones and the show ones, although both are officially working class.

Christian

[saschia]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Everybody has his own opinion. It is very interesting but difficult too. It is not good but please Margo remember in GSD Breeding. today the show dogs look awful, but this was made by gsd breeding comittee in Augsburg - center of gsd in germany - by themselfs, although there are lots lots of gsd breeders. times change sometimes. And today you have to kind of gsd, the working ones and the show ones, although both are officially working class.

Christian, but Germany is the guarantee for the German Shepherd breed. They can do what they want, if they follow rules.

The guarantee for Czechoslovak Wolfdog is Slovakia and Slovakia is strongly opposed to breeding mixes, even if they look like wolfdog. Especially if the mixing is taking place without prior planning and without consent of the guarantee.

Well I didn't use the proper word - our club as the CSW guarantee is against breeding non-wolfdogs and including them in the wolfdog stud book. If PDL or other knnel wants to breed timber-wolf-GSD-malamute-CSW-anything mixes, they may do it, but they should NOT have them registered as CSW. Same as you can breed Holland Shepherd, German Shepherds, Border Collies and whatever, even Saarloos Wolfdogs, as long as it does not affect the pureblod CSW. That's it.