Elbow Dysplasia

[admin]

I have one question to you all here: if the heart illness would be found by your dogs would you breed with them? With the explanation "my dog have hearth problems but other people who breed do not check it and it is possible their dogs are also ill"?

The dogs was removed because in the most cases the elbow problem were hidden by their owners and elbow problems start to spread among the breed. While before there were also none known cases of ED-dysplasia it is getting more and more problematic and every month I'm getting information about new ED-infected dogs.

The main difference between HD and ED is: ED is considered as be higher heriditary than HD.
While using HD-free dogs you can only reduce the number of HD-infected puppies. The same method in the case of ED (using ED-free dogs) almost guaranty ED-free puppies. And vice versa: breeding with the ED-infected dogs almost guaranty some ED-infected puppies in a litter. None method is perfect but if the case of using both parents with ED-problems you will get 40% of puppies with elbow problems and if one of the parents is ED-infected still 13% will have ED-problems (according OFA). High number compared to HD where the heredity is much lower and the influence of other factors bigger.

When you will look into the database (maybe Margo or elf can prepare some statistisc) you will see that most ED-affected dogs belong to the same "family" and have common ancestors; and their offsprings also are ED-affected.

Nobody can forbid the breeding with ED-dogs but if you like it or not you must take into consideration that by using ED-infected dogs the problem will spread out. According to the researches it seems that removing ED-dogs from the group of breeding dogs can give fast very good results and it can reduce the number of ED-infected dogs to the number when we can say again "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs DO NOT have problems with elbows".
It is up to you if you will use such dogs for breeding. We just give you the advice "it seems to be a bad idea".

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Admin

I have one question to you all here: if the heart illness would be found by your dogs would you breed with them? With the explanation "my dog have hearth problems but other people who breed do not check it and it is possible their dogs are also ill"?

The dogs was removed because in the most cases the elbow problem were hidden by their owners and elbow problems start to spread among the breed. While before there were also none known cases of ED-dysplasia it is getting more and more problematic and every month I'm getting information about new ED-infected dogs.

The main difference between HD and ED is: ED is considered as be higher heriditary than HD.
While using HD-free dogs you can only reduce the number of HD-infected puppies. The same method in the case of ED (using ED-free dogs) almost guaranty ED-free puppies. And vice versa: breeding with the ED-infected dogs almost guaranty some ED-infected puppies in a litter. None method is perfect but if the case of using both parents with ED-problems you will get 40% of puppies with elbow problems and if one of the parents is ED-infected still 13% will have ED-problems (according OFA). High number compared to HD where the heredity is much lower and the influence of other factors bigger.

When you will look into the database (maybe Margo or elf can prepare some statistisc) you will see that most ED-affected dogs belong to the same "family" and have common ancestors; and their offsprings also are ED-affected.

Nobody can forbid the breeding with ED-dogs but if you like it or not you must take into consideration that by using ED-infected dogs the problem will spread out. According to the researches it seems that removing ED-dogs from the group of breeding dogs can give fast very good results and it can reduce the number of ED-infected dogs to the number when we can say again "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs DO NOT have problems with elbows".
It is up to you if you will use such dogs for breeding. We just give you the advice "it seems to be a bad idea".

With this way of thinking, will you also remove all dogs with HD B and C from the studdoglist, because pretty much the same can be said about these dogs, I am just afraid if you decide to do that, our breed will soon have some other problems like even stronger inbreeding than now, ED 1/1 is the mildest degree except for ED 0/0, I can`t imagne breeding with HD C is better or worse than breeding with ED 1/1, as long as the other dog have ED 0/0 or HD A, but if you are ONLY giving advises, then there is no reason to remove the dogs from studdoglist as people then still can choose if they want to use a dog with ED 1/1 or HD C or if you should follow your ideology, you should also remove all dogs who have no ED results.

....Just some thoughts !

Rolf

[admin]

Originally Posted by rolf

With this way of thinking, will you also remove all dogs with HD B and C from the studdoglist, because pretty much the same can be said about these dogs

I wil not agree with you. If you mate two HD-free dogs you will still get some puppies with worser results (dysplatic). When you mate two ED-free dogs you can almost be sure that ALL puppies will be healthy.

Second: if you remove dogs with results worser than HD-A you will loose a lot of interesting blood. If you remove all dogs with ED-problems you loose NOTHING.

It is simple calculation.

Originally Posted by rolf

then there is no reason to remove the dogs from studdoglist as people then still can choose if they want to use a dog with ED 1/1 or HD C

In many countries the breeders can do whatever they want. They can breed (and they do) with HD-E dogs, with dogs without pedigrees, with wrong bites, epileptic, with missing testicles or so called Mutaras. But I hope you understand it is not a way of responsible breeding which should be advertised here on Wolfdog.

Originally Posted by rolf

or if you should follow your ideology, you should also remove all dogs who have no ED results.

One thing you can not change: dog with ED 1-1 is not a heathly dog. The same case are dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, eye problem and any genetical faults. A responsible breeders will not breed with such dog and will not look for excuses like "but other breeders do not check it". MAYBE other dogs are not heathly also but dogs with diagnosed genetic illness are not healthy FOR SURE.

I know it is painfull information for you because as I see Voice is half-brother of your dogs but I hope you will understand this steps because according to the information written on Internet we can really cause visible improvement of the ED-results in some lines if we will remove not healthy dogs.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Admin

if you remove dogs with results worser than HD-A you will loose a lot of interesting blood. If you remove all dogs with ED-problems you loose NOTHING.

It is simple calculation.

The problem with this is just that you have no idea if dogs without ED results, have ED 2/2 or worse, but still they are on the studdoglist, only because the owners did not care to test their dogs or tested their dogs but did not make it official, so in a way you reward people who don`t test or hide the results from public and punish people who do test and makes it official, I really don`t like that thought

Originally Posted by Admin

In many countries the breeders can do whatever they want. They can breed (and they do) with HD-E dogs, with dogs without pedigrees, with wrong bites, epileptic, with missing testicles or so called Mutaras. But I hope you understand it is not a way of responsible breeding which should be advertised here on Wolfdog.

And you honestly think it is better to reward people not to test their dogs, so they will not be removed from the list here on wolfdog.org ? ...shame on you

Originally Posted by Admin

One thing you can not change: dog with ED 1-1 is not a heathly dog. The same case are dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, eye problem and any genetical faults. A responsible breeders will not breed with such dog and will not look for excuses like "but other breeders do not check it". MAYBE other dogs are not heathly also but dogs with diagnosed genetic illness are not healthy FOR SURE.

If it really is that importent, why do you allow people to advertise for dogs who are not tested(or not officially tested) for ED, when you don`t allow dogs who are not officially tested for HD ? ...to me that is pretty strange

Originally Posted by Admin

I know it is painfull information for you because as I see Voice is half-brother of your dogs

I really don`t see how this information can be painfull for me ? Uno is officially tested for all possible diseases(HD, ED, Eye diseases and Pituitary dwarfism) Xtreme too(except HD and ED as he need to be 18month before making the xrays) and they are both free/healthy(Uno have HD B).
I test my dogs more than most people

Originally Posted by Admin

I hope you will understand this steps because according to the information written on Internet we can really cause visible improvement of the ED-results in some lines if we will remove not healthy dogs.

I really don`t think so, all you achieve by these steps, is people stop testing their dogs, because then no one can remove the unhealthy dogs from the list and you will be in absolutly same place as you started or in an even worse place ...without people testing their dogs, you don`t even have a possibility to choose to use a dog without ED, because nobody knows if the dogs will have it ! ....sorry, but your politics and assumptions sucks, in my humble opinion !

Rolf

[Nebulosa]

Rolf, could you please quote the exactly moment where Admin wrotes that the dogs without results will stay in the list of Stud dogs? I really didn't find it, so I believe that all dogs without ED results will lso be removed from the list.
So far seems that the datas on some places of the webpage are not actualized because its still the old page.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Rolf, could you please quote the exactly moment where Admin wrotes that the dogs without results will stay in the list of Stud dogs? I really didn't find it, so I believe that all dogs without ED results will lso be removed from the list.
So far seems that the datas on some places of the webpage are not actualized because its still the old page.

Nebulosa, no I can not, because Admin choose not answer that part of my reply in post 10(last line), but if it is so, then I apologize for assumption, but still I don`t see why ED 1/1 is worser than HD C(which I think is allowed to use in all countries), as Admin wrote :

"If you mate two HD-free dogs you will still get some puppies with worser results (dysplatic). When you mate two ED-free dogs you can almost be sure that ALL puppies will be healthy."

This frase makes me think that HD is worser than ED when speaking about heriditary diseases, but ofcourse I am not an expert

Rolf

[admin]

Originally Posted by rolf

This frase makes me think that HD is worser than ED when speaking about heriditary diseases,

Really? So you will prefer to breed with dog which is ill and the heriditary of the illnes is higher and the chance of getting ill puppies is bigger. Than with dog where the heriditary is smaller and the illnes is caused in many cases not by genetic but external factors... Weird way of thinking. Sp we should breed dogs with heart problems because the problem is no so common like HD... And breed with dogs with one testicle because very high percentage of offsprings of such dog will be normal?

According to the new researches VERY high influence on the HD-result have the external factors like conditions where the puppy lives, feeding and so on. So breeding with HD-free dogs only will not have big influence on the results in the population. I think better results we will get if the breeders will breed "natural" looking dogs where puppies look skinny like real wolves and not like fat "tanks" which we can see so frequently at the moment /where the hips are overloaded and can not develop properly/.
In opposition to this the ED seems to be mostly caused by genetic factors - as I wrote you can see it in the database that is is a problem of one or two CzW families - ED appear mostly by dogs comming from the same ancestors.

[Juniorwolf]

why do you edit my text when you quote it ?

Originally Posted by Admin

Really? So you will prefer to breed with dog which is ill and the heriditary of the illnes is higher and the chance of getting ill puppies is bigger. Than with dog where the heriditary is smaller and the illnes is caused in many cases not by genetic but external factors... Weird way of thinking.

I ask questions to things I do not understand, if it bother you, please tell me and I will stop ! but please stop trying to put stupid opinions on me, ofcourse I prefer to breed with dogs who are healthy(if I were a breeder).

Originally Posted by Admin

Sp we should breed dogs with heart problems because the problem is no so common like HD... And breed with dogs with one testicle because very high percentage of offsprings of such dog will be normal?

What do you think your self ?

Originally Posted by Admin

According to the new researches VERY high influence on the HD-result have the external factors like conditions where the puppy lives, feeding and so on. So breeding with HD-free dogs only will not have big influence on the results in the population. I think better results we will get if the breeders will breed "natural" looking dogs where puppies look skinny like real wolves and not like fat "tanks" which we can see so frequently at the moment /where the hips are overloaded and can not develop properly/.
In opposition to this the ED seems to be mostly caused by genetic factors - as I wrote you can see it in the database that is is a problem of one or two CzW families - ED appear mostly by dogs comming from the same ancestors.

HD C and ED 1/1 are both ill dogs, as non of them are 100% healthy and if one is worse than another, I really don`t know ? If you breed from HD/ED free dogs, HD seems to be worser than ED, when is comes to the result of the ofspring who are effected by this, but on the other hand, when you breed from dogs who are not HD/ED free it seeme that ED is worser then HD, when it comes to the result of the ofsprings effected by this.
Again I must say(with the chance to for this to be deleted in the next qoute), I am NOT an expert !

HD and ED is the same thing in different places of the body, I am sorry but I have never heard of any sientific test who proved that HD is more effected by external factors than ED is ? in fact, the differences between these two illneses I can only take your word for it is true... and as I can see above, your assumptions is not always true !

Rolf

[Hanka]

Hi Rolf. One very short (and maybe stupid) question. Can you buy for you for example puppy from mother with czech HD result D (3/3) and italian B? If this puppy will be health (A or B), will you breed him?

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hi Rolf. One very short (and maybe stupid) question. Can you buy for you for example puppy from mother with czech HD result D (3/3) and italian B? If this puppy will be health (A or B), will you breed him?

Hi Hanka,
I don`t care from which country HD results is made as I have no knowledge of which countries/vets. is better or worse to make exact HD resuts. When I buy a puppy or choose to use my own dogs for breeding, I leave all questions about health to people who I trust have enough experience/knowledge about this and don`t worry any more about it.

HD D is not allowed to breed in Denmark(I think in all FCI countries?).

Rolf

[Hanka]

I hope in other countries too
I wont only this answer.

[Ricky's Wolf]

the thing that more it makes me become sad it is the fact that I personally have asked more times an answer to my questions in this thread, but there has been need of a particular and correct intervention from Rolf (message n°8 ) to make to answer the amministrator, this it is sad.

The dog in matter is Voice of wolf, my dog with HD A and ED 0-1 and not ED 1-1 before thing to be clarified.
Second thing I don't absolutely agree that HD C is not similar to ED 1-1 (and what however it doesn't concern my dog that has ED 0 -1).
Besides I don't know with what statistics you work, but the displasia of the hip derives from a genetic factor, stings.
The environmental factor can worsen only a pup that however he could be carrier, also in least part.
Of sure all the pups should grow with a correct environmental factor because he is not able' never to know, but if a pup genetically has ancestors without displasia the pup he is healthy, he is genetically almost impossible that the factor environmental harbors displasia to a healthy pup of this illness.

But the thing most important it is not these thoughts of mine or yours that can be lined up or no.
The fundamental thing is that if there are some rules they must be correct and correct for all the dogs.

Originally Posted by rolf

The problem with this is just that you have no idea if dogs without ED results, have ED 2/2 or worse, but still they are on the studdoglist, only because the owners did not care to test their dogs or tested their dogs but did not make it official, so in a way you reward people who don`t test or hide the results from public and punish people who do test and makes it official, I really don`t like that thought
Rolf

I'm agree!

You of the site have made your calculations and studies. I am able not to agree but being a site tried me I must respect the rules and I don't have problem. Voice of wolf is a dog that cannot be on the stud list, ok there is no problem.
But they must have removed all the dogs that don't have the official plates of the elbows. Before sended the plates of Voice at center of official reading, I knew that 1 elbow was not perfect and I could only to make official the HDs. Instead I am correct and I have furnished to you some site the Official information.
Then, I repeat him: if there are some rules in a private site they must have respected even if I don't agree.
But the rules must be equal for everybody, otherwise the site loses the credibility.
And it would be a sin.

[SERENA]

Originally Posted by Hanka

One very short (and maybe stupid) question. Can you buy for you for example puppy from mother with czech HD result D (3/3) and italian B? If this puppy will be health (A or B), will you breed him?

It is unjust!
Hanka I like your work and your seriousness, but whenI go to made HD results for my dog, I go to University of Padova (where there are famous and important teachers and studies on displasy) they tell me immediately that she is sure A and than this results go to the ufficial reading central (there are only two central in Italy) and the ufficial results is A.
If what you say would be true, in Italy all dogs will be A or B, but it isn't the real situation! There is also C, D and E.

What dogs did you know that have mistake results?

[Hanka]

Hello Serewolf, for me is sad, much wolfdogs is in breeding without HD results. So I think, they have bad HD result. It is not under ENCI. It is bad for breed.
This question what I wrote was special for Rolf

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I hope in other countries too
I wont only this answer.

For the moment, all you have to do in Denmark to breed with a CSW,
is to get a 2. place at an international dogshow, nothing more...
So if you don`t make official xrays, you can breed with all CSW`s in Denmark does`nt matter if the dog have strong HD, ED or other illnesses.

I hope to change that in the near future, but things take time !

Rolf

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Admin

According to the new researches VERY high influence on the HD-result have the external factors like conditions where the puppy lives, feeding and so on. So breeding with HD-free dogs only will not have big influence on the results in the population. I think better results we will get if the breeders will breed "natural" looking dogs where puppies look skinny like real wolves and not like fat "tanks" which we can see so frequently at the moment /where the hips are overloaded and can not develop properly/.
In opposition to this the ED seems to be mostly caused by genetic factors - as I wrote you can see it in the database that is is a problem of one or two CzW families - ED appear mostly by dogs comming from the same ancestors.

What is written here is very interesting and new to me.
If this is the decision of the administration of Wolfdog.org, let it be (i'm not sooo much against it actually)
But, I kindly ask the Admin if it's possible to write, for more and better knowledge of the viewers, the criteria used to make the list and what makes you be excluded.
Also... could the Admin kindly state if ALL the dogs included in the list have HD results sent to Wolfdog.org (as always requested in the past?) or just ... announced by email from the owner.
Thanks
Massimo

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by rolf

but still I don`t see why ED 1/1 is worser than HD C(which I think is allowed to use in all countries),

The main changes are in the hereditability of the HD and ED, for you have an idea, the hereditability of HD starts in 0.2 and ends in 0.4, the hereditability of ED starts in 0.4 and ends in 1.0 (its the maximum it can arrives), depending of the breed.
We can't compare ED 1 with HD C as the dog with ED 1 already shows the degeneration, when a dog with HD C can have perfect bones with no degeneration, but only not nice norberg angles.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

The main changes are in the hereditability of the HD and ED, for you have an idea, the hereditability of HD starts in 0.2 and ends in 0.4, the hereditability of ED starts in 0.4 and ends in 1.0 (its the maximum it can arrives), depending of the breed.
We can't compare ED 1 with HD C as the dog with ED 1 already shows the degeneration, when a dog with HD C can have perfect bones with no degeneration, but only not nice norberg angles.

Thanks nebulosa, But don`t understand what you mean with these numbers and I have no idea what norberg angle is ? ...But I have been reading some articles in the past, stating that HD(I don`t remember if ED also were mentioned) is many times not that a big problem for the dog, if it have strong musculation and live a healthy life(not saying that it is never a problem for some dogs or is does`nt matter for breeding).

Maybe I am stupid, but HD = Hip Dysplasia and ED = Elbow Dysplasia, so it is Dysplasia in the hips and in the elbows, how come one is worser than another, I mean it is the same thing, but in different places, so the degree of how bad or good it is, must be in the scales HD = A, B, C, etc. and ED = 0/0, 1/1, 2/2, etc. ? ...or am I totally wrong ?

Rolf

[massimo]

Can you buy for you for example puppy from mother with czech HD result D (3/3) and italian B? If this puppy will be health (A or B), will you breed him?

This question what I wrote was special for Rolf

Rolf...Hanka maybe doesn't speak DIRECTLY but honestly more direct than what is written is quite impossible...
Did you buy a puppy from a female who had HD made in Italy and was B?
I saw the xrays with my eyes, and the Italian documents behind it.
That is enough for me.
According to someone it seems that she had in Czech D(3/3)...

Now I make a stupid question:
HD X rays of czech dogs made outside Czech republic because afraid of results given by Dr Sterc are ok?

Really...I would avoid throwing shit on others (as already mentioned by Edit...) it's not healthy and somehow it comes back to you.
If you doubt Italian X rays (and one in particular) then if we start doubting ALL Xrays made in other countries different than Czech.... you lost your road completely.
I can show you how HD results are given in Italy...I am curious to see the Czech paperwork!
HD A
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2489/...4556b39b3a.jpg
ED 0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3435/...4c827d9162.jpg
HD D
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2581/...d36d5d812b.jpg
ED 0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2472/...7284e124d2.jpg

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

According to the new researches VERY high influence on the HD-result have the external factors like conditions where the puppy lives, feeding and so on. So breeding with HD-free dogs only will not have big influence on the results in the population. I think better results we will get if the breeders will breed "natural" looking dogs where puppies look skinny like real wolves and not like fat "tanks" which we can see so frequently at the moment /where the hips are overloaded and can not develop properly/.
In opposition to this the ED seems to be mostly caused by genetic factors - as I wrote you can see it in the database that is is a problem of one or two CzW families - ED appear mostly by dogs comming from the same ancestors.

Massimo can translate please?

Definizione scientifica dell'HD:

La displasia dell'anca intesa come degenerazione articolare dell'anca su base genetica è una malformazione coxo-femorale. E' una patologia poligenica e multifatoriale. Poligenica perchè molti geni intervengono nella sua manifestazione, diverse tipologie di controllo genico governano questo poligenismo, dalla comune Dominanza, Recessione, Compenetrazione Parziale o Completa nonche l'Epistasi (fenomeno per cui un tale gene in un determinato loci può influire nel comportamento di un'altro gene in un'altro loci) Multifattoriale perchè la sua espressione è fortemente legata alle influenze ambientali come stile di vita, traumi ed alimentazione.
E' scientificamente provato e riconosciuto che i fattori ambientali possono solo influire sulla modulazione e sull'espressione della patologia. Un cane geneticamente sano non può soffrire di displasia dell'anca per un influenza ambientale. L'influenza ambientale può far si che un cane geneticamente predisposto, manifesti solo un'imperfezione (HD-B, in Italia definita anche sospetta displasia) o una grave espressione della stessa (HD-E).
E' altresi errato affermare che lo stile di allevamento possa generare cani displasici per sola influenza ambientale. Un fattore ambientale nocivo nel cucciolo può in un cane geneticamente sano per quanto riguarda HD, provocare una degenerazione artrosica dell'anca (dovuta a traumi e infezioni batteriche, ect ect), molto simile all'HD per sintomi, ma ben distinguibile nell'esame radiografico.
La displasia del gomito è una patologia più facilmente eradicabile rispetto all'HD, perchè è governata da un solo gene di controllo semplice o Mendeliano, nella fattispecie è un gene Dominante quindi, per le leggi di Mendel, per eradicare un gene dominante è sufficiente eliminare dalla riproduzione il soggetto che presenta quel determinato fenotipo. Ovvero il soggetto che possiede il gene della displasia del gomito, presenta la patologia a livello fenotipico.
Nella displasia dell'anca, un soggetto sano fenotipicamente può avere un patrimonio genetico altamente predisposto a trasmettere la displasia e quindi non è sufficiente riprodurre sulla base del fenotipo dei genitori.
La stima del valore genetico (genetica quantitativa) è il metodo che fino ad oggi ha dato maggiori risultati, ma si basa su enormi e accurati notizie fenotipiche, calcoli genetici e correzioni matematiche atte a considerare i fattori ambientali nell'espressione della patologia.
La nuova frontiera (ne ha parlato recentemente Ina) è una ricerca sui marcatori genetici, o microsatelliti, ovvero delle conformazioni ricorrenti nella sequenza del DNA. Per spiegare in poche parole, questa ricerca non individua i geni responsabili, ma delle configurazioni ricorrenti (ovveri dei "disegni", marcatori nella stringa del DNA) direttamente collegate all'espressione della patologia. E' sempre un metodo indiretto come la stima del valore genetico, ma molto più semplice e più rapido nel caso di un buon numero di campioni di DNA.

- Atti del 1° Convegno Cinoflilo Nazionale 6 dicembre 2008 "La displasia dell'anca e nuovi criteri nella selezione dei riproduttori" relatore dott. Pedrani CELEMASCHE
-Missiva del dott. Vezzoni FSA
-articolo del dott. Asnaghi CELEMASCHE
-"Metodi di Miglioramento Genetico in Cinologia" Università di Pisa Leotta 2004
-"Genetic for Dog Breeders" Robinson 1990

affermare che allevare i cuccioli magri come lupi, sia un metodo di miglioramento nell'incisività della displasia dell'anca è scientificamente errato! Concordo nell'allevare i cuccioli nel modo più naturale possibile, ma non per motivi legati alla displasia dell'anca!