Tamaskan CsW crossing

mijke · 28-10-2012, 13:44

2 years ago Marcy did start a topic about CSV mixes in US: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...light=tamaskan

Here some quotes from that topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by miran

........ I have all three. A saarloos , a CWS and a Tamaskan. I find it unethical to crossbreed this breeds.
It is the difference in behavior that we want in the Tamaskan and you can only reach that if you only use 100% dog. I love real wolfdogs like the CWS and the saarloos but there are peoples that can not handle the behavior and that's why there is the Tamaskan.

It is a big shame that breeders(not real tamaskan breeders) will use a story and try to really crossbreed them with CWS because they do not know what they create, just for the use of selling there litter better. They can not use the standard of a Tamaskan if they use another breed because the easy behavior of the dog will be gone. Just like any CWS,Saarloos and real Tamaskan owner is that where we all fighting against.
So please any CWS or Saarloos owner please please please never let one of your dogs been used for this unethical practise

Quote:

Originally Posted by blufawn

Hi, I am the secretary of the Tamaskan Dog Register
I think some people have the wrong idea about the Tamaskan so I thought I would post to explain our breed.
The Tamaskan Dog has no wolf content, we like the Czech wolfdogs and we have a few Tamaskan owners who have Czech wolfdogs too and they notice the differences, our two breeds are nothing alike and that is ok.
We do not wish to add any Czech Wolfdog to our breed as we do not want to alter our temprement or change our type. …..
Jennie Peacock

But today I did read on FB the TDR did approve a mix with a CsW: https://www.facebook.com/groups/398112493554209/

mijke · 28-10-2012, 13:49

2 years ago Marcy did start a topic about CSV mixes in US: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...light=tamaskan

Here some quotes from that topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by miran

........ I have all three. A saarloos , a CWS and a Tamaskan. I find it unethical to crossbreed this breeds.
It is the difference in behavior that we want in the Tamaskan and you can only reach that if you only use 100% dog. I love real wolfdogs like the CWS and the saarloos but there are peoples that can not handle the behavior and that's why there is the Tamaskan.

It is a big shame that breeders(not real tamaskan breeders) will use a story and try to really crossbreed them with CWS because they do not know what they create, just for the use of selling there litter better. They can not use the standard of a Tamaskan if they use another breed because the easy behavior of the dog will be gone. Just like any CWS,Saarloos and real Tamaskan owner is that where we all fighting against.
So please any CWS or Saarloos owner please please please never let one of your dogs been used for this unethical practise

Quote:

Originally Posted by blufawn

Hi, I am the secretary of the Tamaskan Dog Register
I think some people have the wrong idea about the Tamaskan so I thought I would post to explain our breed.
The Tamaskan Dog has no wolf content, we like the Czech wolfdogs and we have a few Tamaskan owners who have Czech wolfdogs too and they notice the differences, our two breeds are nothing alike and that is ok.
We do not wish to add any Czech Wolfdog to our breed as we do not want to alter our temprement or change our type. …..
Jennie Peacock

But today I did read on FB the TDR did approve a mix with a CsW: https://www.facebook.com/groups/398112493554209/

wolfin · 28-10-2012, 17:04

this is not joke? who about this say a FCI in Holland?
she planed mate kaylee with others male in 2013 years.
very interesing who say a breeder. p.s. IF this animals group need a CSv - can used male - why mas CSV female born mix?

loco · 28-10-2012, 20:19

Zum kotzen

!!!

loco · 28-10-2012, 20:20

Broodfokker

!!!

wolfin · 28-10-2012, 21:11

and yes - this is true. This litter mas born in next year. if want moore info - quest a breeder

miran · 29-10-2012, 00:15

I am no longer with the TDR for quit some time now.
But no matter how I am thinking maybe the best is ask the people them self why they made the decision.......

No matter how I think one thing I did learned over the last couple of years : You can all wright about things and have your opinion but you can never reed the personal book of someone else unless you ask to read a chapter

I myself am part now of a Aatu tamaskan group that is also for outcross. I was against it for the temperament reason yes but they also have there arguments why they are pro. When talking without pointing and judging you can come to a point you do not have to agree but understand.
I do not know the arguments the TDR had but if they had the same as the TBA does I can understand it.....and that is why I say maybe start reading on the tamaskan forum or ask them

yukidomari · 29-10-2012, 00:18

OK, but mix breeders will be removed from listing on wolfdog.org, at least.

And members of clubs with code of ethics that ban breed mixees should make sure not to associate or sell to, people who condone or participate in the breeding of crosses for public sale.

Patty33 · 29-10-2012, 11:16

"Outcross litter planned in the Netherlands – early 2013

Kaylee, my 4 year old female Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, is planned to be mated to Tamaskan male Maguyuk.
She is expected to be in season between now and December.
This will be her first litter.
...
This mating has been approved by the TDR committee and my kennel,
van ‘t Aelse Sluske, has been registered with the TDR.

Kaylee is great with people of all ages and also gets along well with male dogs.
However like most Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs she doesn’t like dogs from the same gender.

Health results
Moonlight Kaylee van Goverwelle (Kaylee): FCI A, DM Carrier, Dwarfism Clear.
Blustag Red Rum (Maguyuk): FCI A, ED Clear, DM Clear, Dwarfism Clear, Eyes Clear.

Kaylee will add some new blood to the Tamaskan breed.
This will also be Maguyuk his first litter,
his parents are Tumanra and Banjo, and he was chosen primarily because of his bloodlines.
Hopefully this combination will produce some nice puppy’s with good temperaments and health.

If anyone is interested in a puppy from this mating then you can contact me: XXXX "

This is placed at the fb-page of the National Tamaskan Club of America.

-----

Can't believe people are involved or want to be involved in this kind of horrible practices.

Koos · 29-10-2012, 21:17

Unbelieveble!!!!

It is amazing to see and hear that Kaylee van Goverwelle, as a puppy sold to Stephanie Korthout of the kennel van 't Aelse Sluske, will be used for this kind of mixes.

We are very sad about this and will have nothing to do with this.

Letty and Koos de Graaff
Kennel van Goverwelle

Rona · 29-10-2012, 21:51

What are the legal consequences of such (mis)behaviour in the Netherlands?

Will the breeder be able to remain a member of the CSV Breed Club and National (FCI affiliated) Kennel Club after such mix pups are born?

mijke · 29-10-2012, 22:03

@Rona: I really don’t know yet at this moment!

Also the board of the Dutch club was today shocked about the news of this planned CsW mix crossing of a Dutch breeder.

The club also confirms that kennel van Goverwelle have nothing to do with this!
It is very sad kennel van 't Aelse Sluske also harms the name of kennel van Goverwelle with using a female of them for this mix (instead of using a CsW of the breeding line of her own).

Shadowlands · 30-10-2012, 11:43

Advertising so blatently that you are planning to do this is shocking!

I wonder if it would be possible to petition the FCI to bring in a ruling whereby any kennel proven to crossbreed is 'struck off' permanently? It needs to be FCI wide, not dependant on individual country breed clubs.

Rona · 30-10-2012, 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

Also the board of the Dutch club was today shocked about the news of this planned CsW mix crossing of a Dutch breeder.

No wonder the Dutch club is surprised. Maybe Stephanie K. counts on the effect, i.e. that the Club members are so shocked, that they won't react

leila · 30-10-2012, 14:23

Shame on the breeder! But the FCI can stop this, no? They are breeding mixes and this is against the FCI rules...

Azazel · 30-10-2012, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Advertising so blatently that you are planning to do this is shocking!

nah.. it's just plain dumb...
Not so shocking when you know the breeder..

Ligerwolve2 · 31-10-2012, 10:15

Sorry I dont see the issue.

A new breed in the making with open stud books needs new blood. They SHOULD use dogs with a known history. So health and temperament is easier to predict.

How do you think the CzW came about? Careful crossbreeding.

Rona · 31-10-2012, 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2

Sorry I dont see the issue.

A new breed in the making with open stud books needs new blood. They SHOULD use dogs with a known history. So health and temperament is easier to predict.

How do you think the CzW came about? Careful crossbreeding.

I only hope you're joking

Comparing that unfortunate amateur cross to a carefully designed several-year-long scientific project, where massive funding, conditions for hybrid training and selection + cooperation with dog trainers, top specialists in kynology, veterinary and biology, etc. were secured, in my opinion is a sign of ...ignorance.

No early hybrids in PS kennel in former Czechlovakia were let into private hands. Early experiments to let the CSVs live in private homes occured after a few generations of careful selection. Here the litter is advertised as any other.

How can you be so naive as to speak about new breed creation?

BTW Where are Stephanie's diplomas in genetic studies or veterinary or biology? Where is the team of people ready do train and test the pups, to make selection decisions and neuter the pups that do not meet the expectations? How much experience does Stephanie have in dog training or breeding? How many healthy, typical pups has she bred? Where are the exam results of her dogs and dogs carrying her kennel name? And last, but not least:
has Slovakian Kennel Club, the guardian of the breed, agreed to use a pure CSV in such "experiment"?

I'm not sure what the legal situation in the Nethereland is, but in Poland such kennel would be banned from the FCI National Kennel Club, the female used for unethical breeding would legally become a mongrel i.e. could not participate in dog shows, or be bred on in the future - i.e. her litters would not be registered. What's more - the female could never be re-registered in another FCI affiliated KC member's name in the future. In other words - even if the "experiment" failed, the breeder would lose forever a nice female for honest, ethical breeding. Very risky enterprise!

Not to mention that she would lose trust and credibility of decent and honest CSV breeders all over the world, which is really hard to be regained.

Ligerwolve2 · 31-10-2012, 14:12

So what your saying is any breed that wasnt created by someone who is a scientist should not exist?

Im not saying that these things shouldnt be entered with extreme care. I think there is a huge amount of work that should be done before mating etc.

Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time.

I would rather have imput into what is happening, help guide the individual to the best options rather than see them sneak behind my back and use the worst combination and then quit half way through and leave a trail of cross breeds.

Secondly you realise that CzWs while being a fantastic example of how to go about creating a breed is still seen as "new" and more of a fad and designer dog by some in the dog community. That others think CzW breeders are "amateur". I bet people just love hearing that. Bet it makes light of all the hard work that has gone into this wonderful breed. Im sure its quite far from the truth. Untill I hear from this person in question myself I would not go around labelling them as anything. Again I would rather steer them in the right direction which you wont get the chance to do if you come across as aggressive.

They may lose registry to start with but would they not then later be registered as a foundation bitch/dog?

One more time I think you will not stop this happening. All breeds see it. The question is how will you as a community handle this? By insulting another breed? By throwing a tantrum? Or by sharing some of your wisdom?

Whether you like the breed or not they are trying to create it and from what I understand they have used CzWs before.

Ligerwolve2 · 31-10-2012, 14:14

Also I think you are wrong that no early hybrids made their way into private hands, but I cant prove it at this time.

28-10-2012, 17:04	#3
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	this is not joke? who about this say a FCI in Holland? she planed mate kaylee with others male in 2013 years. very interesing who say a breeder. p.s. IF this animals group need a CSv - can used male - why mas CSV female born mix? __________________

28-10-2012, 20:19	#4
loco Non active. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Outside, walking the dog. Posts: 2,873	Zum kotzen !!! __________________ Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it....... Then just piss on it and walk away .

28-10-2012, 20:20	#5
loco Non active. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Outside, walking the dog. Posts: 2,873	Broodfokker !!! __________________ Just treat stupid situations like a dog.....If you can't play with it or eat it....... Then just piss on it and walk away .

28-10-2012, 21:11	#6
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	and yes - this is true. This litter mas born in next year. if want moore info - quest a breeder __________________

29-10-2012, 00:15	#7
miran Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 245	I am no longer with the TDR for quit some time now. But no matter how I am thinking maybe the best is ask the people them self why they made the decision....... No matter how I think one thing I did learned over the last couple of years : You can all wright about things and have your opinion but you can never reed the personal book of someone else unless you ask to read a chapter I myself am part now of a Aatu tamaskan group that is also for outcross. I was against it for the temperament reason yes but they also have there arguments why they are pro. When talking without pointing and judging you can come to a point you do not have to agree but understand. I do not know the arguments the TDR had but if they had the same as the TBA does I can understand it.....and that is why I say maybe start reading on the tamaskan forum or ask them Last edited by miran; 29-10-2012 at 00:51. Reason: toevoeging en spelling correctie

29-10-2012, 00:18	#8
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	OK, but mix breeders will be removed from listing on wolfdog.org, at least. And members of clubs with code of ethics that ban breed mixees should make sure not to associate or sell to, people who condone or participate in the breeding of crosses for public sale. __________________ "Learn to do well; seek judgment." www.greyfarer.com/

29-10-2012, 11:16	#9
Patty33 Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Landgraaf Posts: 530	"Outcross litter planned in the Netherlands – early 2013 Kaylee, my 4 year old female Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, is planned to be mated to Tamaskan male Maguyuk. She is expected to be in season between now and December. This will be her first litter. ... This mating has been approved by the TDR committee and my kennel, van ‘t Aelse Sluske, has been registered with the TDR. Kaylee is great with people of all ages and also gets along well with male dogs. However like most Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs she doesn’t like dogs from the same gender. Health results Moonlight Kaylee van Goverwelle (Kaylee): FCI A, DM Carrier, Dwarfism Clear. Blustag Red Rum (Maguyuk): FCI A, ED Clear, DM Clear, Dwarfism Clear, Eyes Clear. Kaylee will add some new blood to the Tamaskan breed. This will also be Maguyuk his first litter, his parents are Tumanra and Banjo, and he was chosen primarily because of his bloodlines. Hopefully this combination will produce some nice puppy’s with good temperaments and health. If anyone is interested in a puppy from this mating then you can contact me: XXXX " This is placed at the fb-page of the National Tamaskan Club of America. ----- Can't believe people are involved or want to be involved in this kind of horrible practices. __________________ Last edited by Nebulosa; 30-10-2012 at 09:24. Reason: deleted mail adress - I've edited to remove the e-mail link ;)

29-10-2012, 21:17	#10
Koos Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 731	Unbelieveble!!!! It is amazing to see and hear that Kaylee van Goverwelle, as a puppy sold to Stephanie Korthout of the kennel van 't Aelse Sluske, will be used for this kind of mixes. We are very sad about this and will have nothing to do with this. Letty and Koos de Graaff Kennel van Goverwelle

29-10-2012, 21:51	#11
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	What are the legal consequences of such (mis)behaviour in the Netherlands? Will the breeder be able to remain a member of the CSV Breed Club and National (FCI affiliated) Kennel Club after such mix pups are born? __________________

29-10-2012, 22:03	#12
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	@Rona: I really don’t know yet at this moment! Also the board of the Dutch club was today shocked about the news of this planned CsW mix crossing of a Dutch breeder. The club also confirms that kennel van Goverwelle have nothing to do with this! It is very sad kennel van 't Aelse Sluske also harms the name of kennel van Goverwelle with using a female of them for this mix (instead of using a CsW of the breeding line of her own). __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

30-10-2012, 11:43	#13
Shadowlands Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Vidin Posts: 391	Advertising so blatently that you are planning to do this is shocking! I wonder if it would be possible to petition the FCI to bring in a ruling whereby any kennel proven to crossbreed is 'struck off' permanently? It needs to be FCI wide, not dependant on individual country breed clubs.

30-10-2012, 14:23	#15
leila http://www.tobrok.sk Join Date: May 2006 Location: Nitra - Mojmírovce, Slovakia Posts: 550	Shame on the breeder! But the FCI can stop this, no? They are breeding mixes and this is against the FCI rules... __________________ www.tobrok.sk

31-10-2012, 10:15	#17
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Sorry I dont see the issue. A new breed in the making with open stud books needs new blood. They SHOULD use dogs with a known history. So health and temperament is easier to predict. How do you think the CzW came about? Careful crossbreeding.

31-10-2012, 14:12	#19
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	So what your saying is any breed that wasnt created by someone who is a scientist should not exist? Im not saying that these things shouldnt be entered with extreme care. I think there is a huge amount of work that should be done before mating etc. Perhaps you dont realise how common this is? New breeds are created all the time. I would rather have imput into what is happening, help guide the individual to the best options rather than see them sneak behind my back and use the worst combination and then quit half way through and leave a trail of cross breeds. Secondly you realise that CzWs while being a fantastic example of how to go about creating a breed is still seen as "new" and more of a fad and designer dog by some in the dog community. That others think CzW breeders are "amateur". I bet people just love hearing that. Bet it makes light of all the hard work that has gone into this wonderful breed. Im sure its quite far from the truth. Untill I hear from this person in question myself I would not go around labelling them as anything. Again I would rather steer them in the right direction which you wont get the chance to do if you come across as aggressive. They may lose registry to start with but would they not then later be registered as a foundation bitch/dog? One more time I think you will not stop this happening. All breeds see it. The question is how will you as a community handle this? By insulting another breed? By throwing a tantrum? Or by sharing some of your wisdom? Whether you like the breed or not they are trying to create it and from what I understand they have used CzWs before.

31-10-2012, 14:14	#20
Ligerwolve2 Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 57	Also I think you are wrong that no early hybrids made their way into private hands, but I cant prove it at this time.