2 CSV Puppies help

[neesk]

As fate would have it, we're ended up with 2 puppies when we were only expecting to get 1. (Breeder is non contactable atm)

They have been with us a few days now and we are having problems that I was hoping some people would help with.

1) We have a 3 year-old daughter, and whilst she is very good - both the puppies are always trying to jump on her and eat her food. We are constently taking them away and telling them "No" when they are jumping on her (we praise them when they sit quietly and ignore her) - does anyone have any other ideas? I know that CSVs are good with children, but I have only heard this in referance to CSV adults.

2) Eating everything, except their own food . When they are out in the garden they are eating stones, snales, grass, and the bitch is eating her own (and her brothers) faeces - but they are not eatting much of their own food (vet said not to worry until it has been a few days but I worry!)

3) Toliet training - how long does it normal take for a CSV. Our dog seems to be very stupid and doesn't get it at all yet. Our bitch was learning really well yesterday, but today she isn't getting it again . She is alot more intellegent than her brother and often takes advantage of that when she is wrestling with him.

Thx
C

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by neesk

As fate would have it, we're ended up with 2 puppies when we were only expecting to get 1. (Breeder is non contactable atm)

This is a receipt for disaster. If you do not have any experience with CSW (and it would be normal, as there is not many in USA), you absolutely cannot handle two puppies at the same time. Even one is sometimes too much! Try harder in contacting the breeder and return one of the pups, or try to find him another home, preferably with some people who have experience with difficult dogs - maybe somebody who has had huskies, malamutes and such.

Originally Posted by neesk

1) We have a 3 year-old daughter, and whilst she is very good - both the puppies are always trying to jump on her and eat her food. We are constently taking them away and telling them "No" when they are jumping on her (we praise them when they sit quietly and ignore her) - does anyone have any other ideas? I know that CSVs are good with children, but I have only heard this in referance to CSV adults.

They are little puppies! (Though you do not mention their age). You cannot expect them to sit still and quietly. They will manage to do that for five seconds, and then they will run again. Especially if they are two, they will support each other constantly in their mischief.
You cannot really make them understand (though keep trying) that food of your daughter is not their food. So you have to avoid creating such situations, where they get the chance to steal her food.
When you give your daughter food, make sure the puppies cannot get to her - close in them in different room, crate them, whatever.
And opposite - if your daughter eats, don´t let her to play with the pups.

CSWs can be good with children, but they have to be educated to be good with them, same as children have to be educated to be good with dogs.

You can´t expect that the pups will know anything by themselves. They are just pups - they have to learn everything first. You have to teach them. And it will take time. Lots of time. Honestly, don´t expect any great results before half a year.

Have you ever had a dog before? Why did you get a wolfdog and from which kennel are the pups?

Originally Posted by neesk

2) Eating everything, except their own food . When they are out in the garden they are eating stones, snales, grass, and the bitch is eating her own (and her brothers) faeces - but they are not eatting much of their own food (vet said not to worry until it has been a few days but I worry!)

Well, they are pups. CSW pups are pigs and they will eat anything - it is part of their curiosity and testing things. Children take everything in their hands and very little children put everything in their mouth. So do the little wolfdogs, unfortunatelly.
I do understand this concerns you greatly. I also had faeces eating puppy, luckily we got over it - both by education and she partly grew out of it. With two puppies, it will be very very hard to teach them anything! It would be hard for experienced owner, but for somebody who never had CSW before - you are in for trouble.
But back to the problem - what are the pups eating? If you feed them kibble, it is not good at all. Most of CSW I know does not grow and prosper well on dry food, they need natural diet to be doing well. I do not know what you have in USA, but perhaps you can get BARF? If you need list of natural food, that should be in CSW diet, contact me by PM or e-mail and I will send it to you.
Maybe the pups are eating faeces, snails and grass because they miss something important in their diet. Not to mention, if they do not want to eat it, it probably does not taste good!

Originally Posted by neesk

3) Toliet training - how long does it normal take for a CSV. Our dog seems to be very stupid and doesn't get it at all yet. Our bitch was learning really well yesterday, but today she isn't getting it again . She is alot more intellegent than her brother and often takes advantage of that when she is wrestling with him.

I do not know, how old your pups are. If you are consistent, take the pups out every time after they ate, woke up and played and praise them for relieveing themselves outside, they could get it relatively quickly. The less accidents inside, the faster result. However, you can expect the puppy to be fully clean only after it is at least 6 months old. Untill then, accidents might (and probably will) happen.

Definatelly the pups are not going to be clean in one or two days of explaining. It greatly depends on your patience, determination and way of educating the pups.

I really think, from your questions, that these are your first dogs ever? If so, you really did not make things for yourself easy, getting a CSW

I suggest that you also might want to look into this website:
http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/case.html
and read more about other people´s trouble with their pups eating faeces and housesoiling problems. You will see how the problem was solved.

Sorry if I sound to you too harsh, it´s better to say how the things really are, than to lie to you and say that CSW has this little button on the belly, which you press and everything will be allright...

Mirka

[Dharkwolf]

I would just like to share with you a few dogs.

1) Trying to simultaneously raise two Czecoslovakian wolfdogs pups is extremely difficult - and at times can even be dangerous. What is likely to happen is that the pups bond together rather than to you, which means that they listen to each other and not to you. As times grows this becomes an ever greater problem. The only times I have heard of people successfully socializing and living with two pups from the same litter is when the second pup came much later into the family (18 months or so). I also know of cases when CSVs had to be put down because it was impossible to handle them after they had grown bonded together but not to people. Unless you have a lot of time and patience on your hands (which can be challenging, with you toddler around the house) I would seriously consider rehoming one of your pups. You simply do not need the hassle.

2) House breaking can take more or less time depending on circumstances but a fair rule of thumb is that you can expect six months of accidents. Things will get better, but it is not unusual for there to still be the occassional problem with pups aged 6-7 months though after this things should be ok. There are particular circumstances which cause more problems though, such as when the pup suffers repeatedly from the runs, or from urinary tract or digestive infections (these can be common when they are eating just about anything!)

3) CSV pups like to explore. Nothing seems to please them more than to explore what can be put into their bellies - this will pass. (Again though it can take some time) Could you tell us more about what and how you are feeding the pups? It might make it easier to understand the problem.

4) CSVs and kids - Yes you can train CSVs to be fantastic with kids. BUT this is not going to happen overnight. Avoid any situation where there is a competition about food between the CSV and your toddler, that will just upset everyone. Eventually they can learn to respect even a very young child, but you have to remember that for a young CSV pup a three year old toddler is just about the best toy you can play with! (It moves, it makes noise, it will always react when prodded, licked or even grinned at, and will occassionally drop a tidbit of food. Fantastic fun!)

Best of luck.

[neesk]

Heya,

wow, this is freaky - I am in a very similar boat to you, in some ways. I also have 2 new CSV puppies, and a toddler (who is just about to turn 3), and am having some trouble with the puppies.

People really are not exagerating when they say that CSV puppies are challenging. I have dealt with a few puppies in my time, even with more than one at a time (there have been a few breeders in my family, and several breeders as family friends, over the years). Also, my wife's family was involved in husky sled racing when she was young (though she has less experience with dogs than I do).

That said, with that experience behind me, I have never had or even heard of dogs which were this tough to deal with. Honestly, it is sometimes difficult to decide whether they are just to stupid to understand what is expected of them, or they have no respect for pack authority (which I doubt).

My puppies are 9 weeks old, and I have only had them for 5 days, but progress is painfully slow. With any other dog I've ever had to deal with, I would not be expecting after 5 days for the puppies to still not understand where thier food is (and what things are not food, like stones). I would also expect (from day one really) that a dog should understand that being corrected means that something is a bad idea. Obviously, I would expect them to try again the minute your back is turned - but these two pups with just keep going, endlessly sometimes, back to do what ever they have been told not to, as if you have never bothered to correct them at all!

So, my pups eat plants, poo, stones, paper, and almost anything else they can find. They fight a fair amount (mostly playing, but far more aggressivly than I would like), and will not even pause when corrected, however harshly. They are terrified of just about everything, so much so that taking them outside to pee is useless if someone walks past, because they will just start climbing the door to get back in and whining, and cannot be convinced to settle down.

They are, however, very good at taking pills (which they both need, as one of them arrived with a scratch and lump on her nose, and the other came with diahorrea and an infected sore on his lip caused by a slightly squint tooth).

So, ignoring, for the moment, the remarkably negative-seeming feedback so far (though some of it is definatly useful to a new owner), can anyone tell me if this is *really* 'normal' for CSV pups? And does anyone have any 'magic-bullet' fixes? Or, for that matter, any more useful tips?

How, for example, did you all discipline your pups when they were young? What type of correction did you find works best for teaching them boundries? What did you find was the best way of rewarding good behaviour (ours don't seem that food motivated)?

TIA folks!

-Malgor

[roo]

neesk,

I wish you all the best as you definitely have your hands full. Yes, as puppies the CSV can be very challenging. I am by no means an expert, but have or am in the process of raising a year-old+ CSV puppy in the United States myself. I experienced many of the same challenges as you have described (albeit with only one puppy), but worked my way through it with a lot of patience, a lot of repetition, and a lot of continuity. Yes, these puppies can be much different than your regular dog breed. These dogs seem to do EVERYTHING - both good and bad - at full speed, with full determination, and with more gusto than you've probably ever experienced. The good will begin to outweigh the bad over time with proper training and raising.

Although it can be different with every CSV dog, I would not equate difficulties in potty training to stupidity - quite the contrary, these dogs in my opinion have the potential to be much more intelligent and much more innovative "problem solvers" than other breeds. I believe that that are much more independent in their thought and "learn" or "think" differently than other more common U.S. breeds that you may be accustomed to. The potty-training also came much slower with my CSV, and we found that repetative crate training worked best in the beginning.

As for eating everything, yes - they will. Hopefully things will settle down once you find an acceptable puppy food for them and get them on a regular schedule. However, don't expect them to not continue to try and eat (or at least mouth) just about everything.

The jumping is natural and normal in the beginning. It is their way of getting attention and saying "Hey, play with me - give me comfort, give me reassurance, NOW!". However, this behavior must be highly discouraged, ESPECIALLY with young children, as it can easily develop into very bad situations later. In the beginning I would suggest trying to not mix the puppies and young kids, if possible, until you have a better handle on the situation. Not to suggest that they are dangerous in any way, it is just better for a large person to teach them and continually reinforce what is acceptable and what is not. How to do this, you ask? Again, you have to find what works best for each individual dog. I found that with my puppy, initially turning my back to the jumping up, followed by a stern NO!, followed by a session of "time-out" alone time where she was isolated in her kennel, away from all attention for several minutes became quite effective. Did it work like magic after the first time? No - it took numerous, countless repetitions - so much so that it became a routine - but eventually it worked quite well. The jumping up - in my opinion - is seeking attention. If you do not feed into that and actually give them the opposite, they will eventually learn that jumping up does not bring them the results they desire. However, be sure to give them extra attention and praise when they are not jumping up.

One of the first commands and most essential to me was to get the "Sit" down pact. This command has proven to be the base and cornerstone for all future training and has helped to eliminate or at least cease other unwanted behaviors in the beginning. Earlier I mentioned their "problem-solving" skills. With two puppies, you'll probably experience very soon that those problem-solving skills can be quite challenging to overcome as they will be into EVERYTHING, chew ANYTHING, and try to go EVERYWHERE. If they see something they want, they will continue and continue to go for it until they accomplish their goal, whether that's see how long it takes to shred that tennis shoe or climb that barricade and go exploring. Where most dogs would give up, these will keep going and going... They have an amazing drive - you just have to channel it into positive things and behaviors or it can become very challenging.

Please feel free to pm me and I'll be happy to answer any of your questions on what worked and what didn't work with my first year experience. These dogs are much more challenging at first, but they are much more rewarding in the end as well. You'll find this forum to be the foremost source for CSV expertise - don't be afraid to search the forums and past postings for answers or ask any of the members here. As you have already had a couple of responses, there is a wealth of knowledge and experience that can be gained by asking this forums members - almost all of whom have much more knowledge and experience than I will ever have.

Good luck, and I hope you get at least a few hours of sleep tonight with two CSV puppies at the house!

- Robert

[Kat]

Hi Neesk,

I agree with everyone that has posted. It is very difficult to raise 1 puppy let alone 2. I have sent you an email as well. It takes a lot of patience and time to raise a well rounded wolfdog and you have to be completely dedicated to this. Feel free to e-mail with any questions that you have and if there is anything I can do to help you, please let me know.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi Malgor,

the only useful tip I can give you as a dog trainer and breeder of CSW's for 12 years now is to give at least one, if not both puppies back to the breeder
( personal note: what responsible breeder sells two puppies out of one litter to a person with a 3 year old child and no experience with CSW's? ).
As soon as possible.
Who's the breeder by the way, as the puppies seem although not in a healthy condition and not properly socialized.
Sorry for that answer, but as you made already the experience, CSW's are quite challenging and it will get worse under the circumstances they will be brought up, as pack within the pack.
This is a real bad example as CSW's can be, but the majority of the dogs are not like that if they live in an environment they fit in, come from a breeder who socializes the puppies and chooses the right parents for a litter.
And if they are healthy of course.
Good luck with your dogs and you decisions.

Michael

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Malgor

Heya,

So, ignoring, for the moment, the remarkably negative-seeming feedback so far (though some of it is definatly useful to a new owner), can anyone tell me if this is *really* 'normal' for CSV pups? And does anyone have any 'magic-bullet' fixes? Or, for that matter, any more useful tips?

-Malgor

I am sorry, that you see the feedback as negative. Unfortunatelly, we know what we are talking about. I´ve had CSW at home for more than 12 years now, raised a litter of pups, been to numerous wolfdog events and I know many CSW owners.
As Michael rightly mentions, breeder who sells two pups to inexperienced owner is totally irresponsible. We had a case like that here in Belgium - local breeder sold two pups from the same litter to a guy with no experience with wolfdog - for extra price. Later, the two pups formed pack together and they totally disrespected the owners. Breeder shut his door and stopped responding. The two dogs grew up into shy-aggressive, non managed dogs, which the owner then walked at midnight as to avoid trouble. Once the dogs escaped and one of them killed a small bichon - in result (and to keep the story short), one was euthanised and the other one was saved from euthanasia only by quick transport out of the country.
So if you do not want to end up like this, please listen to us.

Problem with little CSW pups is not only the fact that they eat everything, go everywhere and chew everything. Problem is, that it is extremelly difficult to socialise them well - make sure they are not affraid of things. This demands a lot of time and patience with one puppy, and is extremelly hard with two pups, because to do it correctly, you have to walk them individually and not always together. If you do not do this socialisation, the pups will indeed be affraid of everything and it will not get better with time, only worse. Eventually they will end up being shy-aggressive - biting from fear.

So no, there is no quick solution and there is no miracle going to happen. Best for you and the pups would be to return them to the breeder, or at least returning one of them and concentrate on proper raising of the remaining pup. However, with a toddler and lack of experience, it still could end up in trouble.

Btw., my personal opinion is that the breeder who sold you the pups should have provided you with all informations and support, stay in touch and help you out. Not to mention he should have never sold you two pups at the same time. Makes me think the "breeder" is a mere puppy producer making money on inexperienced people.

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

and breeder of CSW's for 12 years now

Breeder of CSW's for 12 years...
Are you sure?

[GalomyOak]

In thinking about feeding, we have had great success with our dogs (and also so far, our wolfdog) by using Merrick dog food (dry and wet), which is based almost entirely upon meat and bone, and natural fruits and vegetables - and never any corn or gluten. We also supplement our dogs with raw bones, fresh meat, and green tripe. Their feces are minimal, with very little smell, and coats and bodies are healthy and beautiful. Our dogs are also full of energy. The dogs love their food - and the ingredients are human grade. I've considered trying them, they look very tasty, with bison, pheasant, duck, and chicken! The food isn't really any cheaper than BARF (although, our pet store gives us a discount), but it is a bit more convenient, and certainly much healthier than foods made with corn and gluten.

www.merrickpetcare.com

Chew toys are also essential - puppy safe, and always under supervision - we usually find that when our puppy starts mouthing something, she is in the mood to chew - after we tell her no, we immediately give her one of her own toys, which she will be content to chew on for quite some time. We usually seperate our dogs when chew toys are out, just so there is no disagreements, especially between our CSW and GSD.

I truly hope you are able to resolve this issue.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Malgor

wow, this is freaky - I am in a very similar boat to you, in some ways. I also have 2 new CSV puppies, and a toddler (who is just about to turn 3), and am having some trouble with the puppies.

It seems the new policy of the British breeders is to sell CSV pups in sets of two...

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by neesk

1) We have a 3 year-old daughter, and whilst she is very good - both the puppies are always trying to jump on her and eat her food. We are constently taking them away and telling them "No" when they are jumping on her (we praise them when they sit quietly and ignore her) - does anyone have any other ideas? I know that CSVs are good with children, but I have only heard this in referance to CSV adults.

Is pretty good leave puppies with kids when you're watching and take care of the play, as is very good teach the puppy to respect the kid and your orders, but you may do it only when you have time, patience and energy for it.
When you want a peace dinner for your kid leave the puppies in other place separate of the kid with a lot of plays for they plaing together.

Originally Posted by Neesk

2) Eating everything, except their own food . When they are out in the garden they are eating stones, snales, grass, and the bitch is eating her own (and her brothers) faeces - but they are not eatting much of their own food (vet said not to worry until it has been a few days but I worry!)

Puppies are curious, they want touch and taste all, take all, dogs have no hands like humans, so they made it with the mouth, chew and spit stones, grass and other things are different to eat it, normally they only chew and spit and this is common not only for CzW but for all dogs.
That's why you need take care of what your puppies can take, as they can chew a stone they can do this with a eletricity line and die, they will give preference for natural bones ( please, only give it raw) and leather bones, is pretty interessing you leave it for they take when they want.
When you see they chewing something you not want they do, take they by the "neck skin" and say "no", leave they in the front of something that they can bite (as the raw bone), if they start to chew the raw bone ( as exemple) make a "party" (weee, good boy or something like that) for turn clear that this is correct , continuing observe because comonly they will back to the " forbiden chew thing" for test your reaction.

If you leave the food all day for the puppies, they normally won't eat all, will seems that they aren't eating, that's change if you gives the food only in predicted time, all days at same hour and 3 at 5 times per day, if they not eat, take out the food and only will eat in the next time.
The food is a important question that will help you to made the puppies see you as leader.
If you can make then sit or down for only after this receive the food will be better sometimes.

Coprofagy is very comon for puppys, normally they do it for eat the protein they put out on feces.
When they defecate clean at same hour you see, normally they will defecate 30 min after eat so, it's only you take care.
If you see they eating feces, again grasp then by the "neck skin" and say "no", clean the feces and end of the problem, with the time it will stop.

Originally Posted by Neesk

3) Toliet training - how long does it normal take for a CSV. Our dog seems to be very stupid and doesn't get it at all yet. Our bitch was learning really well yesterday, but today she isn't getting it again . She is alot more intellegent than her brother and often takes advantage of that when she is wrestling with him.

You only can correct then when you take then on the act, when you see one of the puppies mading a pee on your carpet, so again, grasp by the neck skin, say "no" and leave she on the garden, is she do only one drop of pee in the garden, so you make a party and act as it was the best thing in the world.
If you only find your carpet wet, so you can do nothing, only rest you clean it and wait take she on the act for correct.

Originally Posted by Malgor

back to do what ever they have been told not to, as if you have never bothered to correct them at all!

For CzW pack is more important than for dogs, a good and strong leader is needed for a good pack, then they test you even puppy, if you're not a good and strong leader, so they will be.
Why they will obey you, are you leader? yes?! so, let's test you!
It's almost this thinking but in more puppy way, if you're not good leader they won't respect you, if you're good leader they will respect but at same time test you.

Remember that puppies needs a lot of patience and perseverance for learn, as they need a good, calm, wise and strong leader.

Normally the proper sociailization with the world take out the energy of the puppie, when they see, do, know and learn new things.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Malgor

You know, I am repeatedly amazed on this forum that people who shout so loud about wanting to advance the breed (as all owners should), are so keen to attack newcomers - especially if those newcomers need some help. I simply wanted to know what worked for other people, to see if some of the answers could make life easier for me and my pups, and help the original poster - but I guess that was too much to ask. I guess the elitist csv 'experts' don't want anyone else to have one, since the general advice seems to be 'take them back, you can't handle them!'

It´s pity that you see it this way. But I think that you simply do not like the reply - that it would make your life easier, if you had only one puppy, because it is extremelly difficult to raise properly two CSW pups at the same time!
There is really no better advice for now, than to give up one of the pups and focus on raising properly the remaining one, which still will be task challenging enough, don´t worry.

I have had four different wolfdogs at home during time, currently two. The last puppy was driving me crazy, even I had all the time for her, because I did not have job at that time. I honestly cannot imagine to be raising and educating two crazy CSW pups, and a toddler! Even if you had all your time for it, it is very difficult, time consuming and sometimes very frustrating. And there are worse times comming!

Every honest and reasonable breeder here will tell you, that to get two CSW pups at one is insane and only leads to trouble. I have seen those troubles happen to others, who were as stubborn as you and did not want to listen.. And who paid the utlimate deadly price? The dogs, of course.

If you really like the breed and you really want it to get recognised in UK, then I believe you also realise, that if you mess up and things go wrong, you will only help the breed to stay on DEFRA´s list for longer...

[roo]

I was hoping that we could get back to the original topic of this thread - a new owner of CSV puppies asking for help through suggestions and advice - but it seems that this discussion has degraded somewhat into personal issues.



What a shame, because I'm sure there are many new owners out there that could benefit from a healthy/fresh interaction and exchange of information, tips, etc.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Malgor

Yes, I *am* having problems with them, and they *are* turning all my expectations of training upside down - but to say that it is "obvious you can not cope" is (to be polite about it) presumptuous and arrogant. I am coping fine, thank you very much.

I think you have got a wrong impression due to a misunderstaning. I undersatnd you consciously bought two pups while neesk got them by surprise, which makes a huge difference! You seem to know a lot about dogs while neesk asked questions showing that he found strange what seemed ordinary pup behviour.
These two cases got mixed together, so don't blame people for being cautious. Just as Mirka and others pointed out - there were so many cases when the dogs suffered because the owners couldn't cope with them, that it would be much better to act soon than to be sorry later. When serious difficulties occur usually it's the dog that suffers first and most severely- his character may be ruined for good and in result he might not find a good home.

I also think that it'd be much wiser to start with one pup, get experience, learn from it and only then buy the second one and have another try. Everybody is bound to make mistakes when raising their first CSV, so why should the errors be doubled?

Recently I met two one-year-old bitches from the same litter, who grew up in the same household and they were as cheerful and as obedient as CSVs of their age could probably be. I was really impressed by the level of their socialisation! So this is not impossible. However, they were raised by people who've owned CSVs for many years and have much experience with the breed.

From what I have experienced and observed the most important strategic advice for the CSV owner is to learn how to "think" his dog: he should try to understand the reasons of his CSV's behaviour (instead of calling him stupid) Brining up a CSV is kind of mutual learning, testing, making concessions on both sides, building respect, partnership step by step, all the time! CSV is not a GSD and will never obey just for the fun of obeying - the owner must mentally convince him that he's the leader and it's worthwile to be on good terms with the leader. Just as somebody pointed out - making clear rules and being consistant.

You will find a lot of useful info under the threads: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=66
and articles: http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/articles/cat179.html

If you have any specific questions/problems I'm sure people will help you with them.

********
To neesk: I'd advise you to read some good book on raising pups, then study wolfdog site and only then, but asap decide if you're ready to face the double or rather tripple challenge or not. If not, you'd better put an annoucement in the section: CSV looking for new home. I'm sure everybody'd understand and support you, because this would mean that you're acting in the best interest of the dog and his future.

[Nebulosa]

This topic was cleaned, only posts for HELP Neesk or other owner in need will be acepted in this topic.
The discution between Solowolf and Malgor was cleaned and merged with the topic Breeders in UK where already have one old discution with Solowolf.