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Old 22-04-2007, 10:08   #41
wilupi!
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in nature don't exist a wolf with that mantle.

the long hair is a recessivo gene in the german shepherd maybe the German shepherd whom they have used if they carried it behind without that it was looked at in the phenotype.
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Old 22-04-2007, 23:16   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa
I have see fotos of some dogs were the fater is Jerry Lee Z Molu Es that show long hair.
In the photo Ciro not seems have a short coat, and have already make long haired dogs.
Can you explain me, what are you talking about? Who is "Ciro"??

In case you mean by "Ciro" my Cira Krivoklatsky Atos, could you please show me, which long-haired dogs she ever made? I´d be interested to know, cause I as owner of Cira should know about them. For your info, Cira had only five puppies in her life and none of them had ever long coat.

Regarding Cira having long coat, that is just ridiculous. (If that "Ciro" is my Cira). You´ve never seen my dog and you are making statements only from photos. You can ask Massimo, Mijke or Liesbeth, Monika or Hanka for their opinion about Cira´s long coat, they all have seen her "live" many times.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa
The inbreeding was made in Bora, but who have strong genetic for long coat is Ciro and Jerry lee, Elza have Ciro, Ares have Jerry lee, so, the two dogs have genes for long coat, the litter have born with long coat.
Again, which "Ciro" you are talking about? There is no "Ciro" in pedigree of Elza Krivoklatsky Atos.

In case you mean by "Ciro" again my female Cira Krivoklatsky Atos, she has nothing to do with Elza, only they have the same mother (different father).

What makes you think, that Cira (if you mean my Cira) has strong genetic for long coat? You have never seen the dog, never seen her offsprings, parents or any other related dogs (or any CS wolfdog alive, for that matter). Neither you did genetic tests, so all that you say here, is just guessing and not matter of facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa
If not deceif-me, the breeder have say-me that others offsprings from Ares with others females have show long coat in the males, but not in females, too as have show very strong bones, independant of the female.
You spoke with the breeder yourself? Cause I do not have such information. And as far as I can say, all puppies of Art Vlci sen with different females than Elza Krivoklatsky Atos have normal coats.

Amazingly enough, all offsprings of Arok Vlci sen have completely normal coats, so I agree with what Liesbeth says, is that you need two or more factors (and two dogs with them) to get long coat and probably strong inbreeding for that matter.
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Old 23-04-2007, 01:00   #43
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The Ciro that I mean is Ciro Brenovka Stopa CS, he is the father of Elza Krivoklatsky atos.


He is too the father of the dog that you use as exemple for long hair CzW Eros Krovoklatsky atos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkawolf
You spoke with the breeder yourself? Cause I do not have such information. And as far as I can say, all puppies of Art Vlci sen with different females than Elza Krivoklatsky Atos have normal coats.

Amazingly enough, all offsprings of Arok Vlci sen have completely normal coats, so I agree with what Liesbeth says, is that you need two or more factors (and two dogs with them) to get long coat and probably strong inbreeding for that matter.
Yes, I have talk with she about this in the Skype, she say that the females have a normal coat, but the males have long coat, and that this not have happen only in the litter with Elza, but in others too ( few but happen).

Arawn Les plaines de l'est



I agree with Liesbeth too, the cross betwen Elza and Art can be used as exemple, but who have cause the long hair wasn't the inbreeding in Bora Mabosa, but the gene for long hair that Art have comes from Jerry lee Z molu Es, and the same gene that Elza have comes from Ciro Brenovka Stopa CS.

Genetic is a surprise box, Art can pass the gene of strong bones and the long coat, his brother can be that not, or, only his brither have luck to not be matted with one female that have too the gen for long coat, because this still not have born a long coated pupie from he.
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Old 23-04-2007, 04:24   #44
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For have no more doubt's in red is the two dogs who I say that probably have long coat genes, ingreen the inbreeding made.



Yes, is a inbreeding, and isn't good for the breed, principally if we talk about one breed with few blood line as the CzW, for us this will be a inbreeding of course, but for other breeders of breeds more popular and with more line, principally for Am.Pit bull breeders, that's will be not more than a strong linebreeding. for me, I consider this a inbreeding, but I not find this strong.

Let's talk about real strong inbreedings that already happen in this breed.

In green is the inbreeding, in blue lines that happen and I believe, the breeder nor have idea about this.

For breeds like Labrador this inbreeding is normal to happen, probably the breeder who made this have no idea about the problem that is inbreedings in the CzW breed.

Other Strong inbreeding


This one real strong inbreeding, who too breeders of more popular breeds fear to do.

I remember that sometime I saw in planed litters one inbreeding seems to this last ...

Ops sorry for the big off-topic.
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Old 23-04-2007, 10:07   #45
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All sickness and genetic prolems not come inbreeding. Sometimes nature makes mistakes also.

I dont like popular sire breeding and its not good to make so many litters one male or female.

Or if litter have somethig problems we most tell all problems.
Not make repeat mating in this combination!

I respect that kind breeder how can tell all good and bad things from their owndogs.
So many breeders have "kennelblindness" they don´t see anything bad in their dogs.

Everyone knows that every dogs is not for breeding.
We can read what kind combination has made and often can see many litters is inbreeded.

Inbreeding is not problem IF you know what you are doing.

But if you only make puppies (read money) its very big problem.

Outcross is not possible so little genetig population. We have lots of dogs but genetically they are few dogs.

We all have so many things to learn. We can know lot of things but there is allways somebody who know more.

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Old 23-04-2007, 10:25   #46
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that isn't a long coat!!!!!!!!!!

please look the differences between the jerry lee line e miki's line!!

jerry lee and his sons DON'T have long hair!!!! he has a folto hair.

the hair is long when the hair(borra) exceeds of several centimeters regarding the underhair(giarra).
in this dog the hair is longer than 12-15 cm!! not 10 cm
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Old 23-04-2007, 10:46   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilupi

that isn't a long coat!!!!!!!!!!

please look the differences between the jerry lee line e miki's line!!

jerry lee and his sons DON'T have long hair!!!! he has a folto hair.

the hair is long when the hair(borra) exceeds of several centimeters regarding the underhair(giarra).
in this dog the hair is longer than 12-15 cm!! not 10 cm
Nebulosa
I suppose you are mistaken by photos and because not seeing dogs in real life.
The examples you quoted do not seem "to my eyes" long coat as the subject of this thread.
On the contrary the example shown by mirka seems that but much more, the looks/colour remind me so much of a Belgian shephard)
There are some cases of "open fur" and "curly fur" that make you think of long fur but it's not the same thing.
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Old 23-04-2007, 10:49   #48
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Yes, I said that this:



is rather dense and long coat for CSW, considering the average coat we can see in CR. However, it is absolutely not a real LONG COAT in a way, that you can see on some of the Italian and French dogs.

Also please realise, that Eros Krivoklatsky Atos, same as Ciro Brevnovska stopa, were judged and bonitated by judges - specialists on the breed and their coat was not found long, neither different or in any way special.

It is absolutely normal, that in winter (and the shot of Eros K.Atos was made in winter) our dogs in get very thick coat. Males have especially thick fur around neck, the fur there is also longer. That is what you see on the photo of Ciro Brevnovska stopa (which was taken also in winter).

The dogs with real long coat, such as the examples of Italian and French dogs, stay long-haired all year round, just as German shepherds do. And their coat is very different to what you are trying to see on Ciro Brevnovska stopa.

Nebulosa you cannot judge dogs and their characteristics only from the photos.
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Old 23-04-2007, 11:35   #49
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I've been taught that speaking of german shepherd you can have:

- normal stock hair coated dogs (normal length)
- long stock hair coated dogs (long hairs, but not a "fault")
- long coated dogs (very long hair, as in the above discussion (few or missing undercoat, "fluffy" ears, etc), "fault")
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Old 24-04-2007, 00:58   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massimo
Nebulosa
I suppose you are mistaken by photos and because not seeing dogs in real life.
The examples you quoted do not seem "to my eyes" long coat as the subject of this thread.
On the contrary the example shown by mirka seems that but much more, the looks/colour remind me so much of a Belgian shephard)
There are some cases of "open fur" and "curly fur" that make you think of long fur but it's not the same thing.
Photos can make me mistake because I not see the dog movement, but I'm not blind and I can see coat problems in dogs by fotos, some breeders uses fotos for valuate better htys dogs, some problems we cannot see in live in the dogs, but they appear at fotos as some problems we cannot see by fotos, but only in live.

Let's see if photos can make me mistake too in the coat.
One exemple of Curly coat.

Rep Z krotkovskeho dvora.
He comes from one strong inbreeding, so, the Curly coat is recessive, the inbreedings show more recessives genes, I can say without problems that Omar Z krotkovskeho dvora carring this problems in his genetic, he have curly coat but not show this, but some of his pupies have a perfect coat, so, that's happen because curly coat is a recessive gene and will appear when we mate two dogs that carring this gene.
For me he have a normal size coat, I have one very good idea about the coat size because of the collar that he uses in the neck, neck if the part that the coat is more long.

aah, yes, I can say that in this photo isn't winter, because in the deep we can see one person ( one woman?) with light clothes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkawolf
And their coat is very different to what you are trying to see on Ciro Brevnovska stopa
No, I not trying to see the coat in Ciro, but you can see by his ofsprings that he have the gene for long coat, as Jerry lee have ( I never mean he that Jerry lee (the dog) have long coat, but I say that he have genes for this and that is possible to see in his offsprings as I have show).
How you can see this, he have made dogs with more longer coat than the normal, that's why they have open coat, not extremly but his coat isn't close as have to be a " normal" coat , because this I can see the undercoat too if is few ( and too by fotos).
In one breed that the long coat isn't normal, the long coat will not appear of one hour to other, but will show a little before appear in one offspring, when we cross two dogs with this recessive gene, the problem was made and will born dogs with more long coat, dogs with only open coat, and too dogs with normal coat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirkawolf
It is absolutely normal, that in winter (and the shot of Eros K.Atos was made in winter) our dogs in get very thick coat. Males have especially thick fur around neck, the fur there is also longer. That is what you see on the photo of Ciro Brevnovska stopa (which was taken also in winter).
I know that these dogs have a huge difference in coat betwen summer and winter, that is the correct and is mean in the standard, but the winter coat cannot be used as excuse for one open coat, the coat have at first protect the dog, open coat make the dog lost a bit of this protection, dependant of how is open, the dog will lost more or less.
I not mean that you want to protect nobody, but in this foto and others too I can see a little bit of the Eros undercoat.
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Old 24-04-2007, 06:19   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkawolf
The dogs with real long coat, such as the examples of Italian and French dogs, stay long-haired all year round, just as German shepherds do. And their coat is very different to what you are trying to see on Ciro Brevnovska stopa.
That's is a really problem, but this problem not have appear as magic, that was made by bad selected litters, inbreedings in wrong dogs or too for accident made by the lack of knowledge about the genetic of one selected male.
So, we cannot forgoth this hipotesis, in show long coat ever atrack more the judges than the normal coat, so, who garante that these dogs not receive a special tratment for be with all this coat all year?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satu*
All sickness and genetic prolems not come inbreeding. Sometimes nature makes mistakes also.
Yes, nature and we cannot forgoth bad selection
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satu*
I dont like popular sire breeding and its not good to make so many litters one male or female.
if the male or the female is good, I not see the problem to spread more the genetic of this dog, but of course not turn it a super-reproductor as we can see with Miky passo del Lupo or Cutt as exemple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satu*

Or if litter have somethig problems we most tell all problems.
Not make repeat mating in this combination!

I respect that kind breeder how can tell all good and bad things from their owndogs.

So many breeders have "kennelblindness" they don´t see anything bad in their dogs.
Exactly, if all breeder tel the problems and the good things that happen in his selection, some wrong choices and some problem not will happen, but, is very little the percentage of breeder who do this, the most part have the preference to hide problems.
"Incredible that the problem only happen in the neighbour kennel's"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sato*
Everyone knows that every dogs is not for breeding.
If this dog fall inone honest breeder hands, he will be very well used as Pet only, but if fall in the hand of people who want money, they willnever put out of reproduction a bad dog, because is lost money with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satu*
We can read what kind combination has made and often can see many litters is inbreeded.

Inbreeding is not problem IF you know what you are doing.

But if you only make puppies (read money) its very big problem.

Outcross is not possible so little genetig population. We have lots of dogs but genetically they are few dogs.

We all have so many things to learn. We can know lot of things but there is allways somebody who know more.
That's the problem of the inbreeding in this breed, if is made the inbreeding, how will be possible a real outcrossing if all dogs have at least rep.zPS and others dogs in common sometimes in the most far generations?
Inbreeding isn't bad and isn't good if you can control and really open the line again if need sometime as you want, but that's is not really possible in little genetical breeds.
In one breed who already have a little genetic diversity, why down more it with inbreedings? too with the repetance of the same crosses sometime?
Who made it probably isn't well informed about the breed, or the breed for hin no matter.
Outcross is not possible but is possible up the genetic diversity of this breed made ever different crosses with different males as some breeders already do.
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Old 24-04-2007, 12:27   #52
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Mirka,
To write that long hair in c.s.w result of an inbreeding in not efficient because it's not enough to find the solutions.
It's right Nébulosa have seen photos showing puppies half long haired and long haired, borned on the mating of ART and 3 females.

These 3 femelles are ASTA SOKOLI OKO, WAYTA von den Wächter der Krone,and OSA .Hlas divoèiny

Puppies from WAYTA and OSA have dense, thick fur.



Wayta et Arès





Awinita


Anoki




Arawn

Among the puppies borned of ASTA, they were two females long haired ; for this last point, Nébulosa was on a wrong understanding.
Instead of calling doubt about mates [( and about a breeder)], it would be better to ask for the good questions. Let's try to find the génétic cause. And, whe should also be able to talk about the "fente palatine" (cleft palate) or about the "syndrome du chiot nageur" (swimming-puppy ?) ! these diseases are typical of the g.s.d and are known among the c.s.w...
Who is able to disqualify the male or the bitch after one mate and only one litter ? I matted ART with three females, (the last litter from Asta : 3 long haired, again !) and now I hypothesize that ART, may be the conductor of this long-hair gene.


Asta et Arès








The puppies borned from Elza Køivoklátský Atos and Zarco de New Flame where all short haird;non of then was long hair or alf long hair!!!!!

CIRO IS NOT PRESENT AMONG ANCESTORS OF ASTA

Nadia
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Old 24-04-2007, 16:43   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indiananous
Mirka,
To write that long hair in c.s.w result of an inbreeding in not efficient because it's not enough to find the solutions.
I wrote what I wrote according the informations I had from you. I did not have enough, as I see now. We spoke together only about the litters of Elza and Art, where the long haired puppies occured.

You did not give me (or my husband) any informations about other long-haired puppies born from Art.

Therefore of course I thought, that the long-hair was caused by the strong inbreeding. I´ve never seen such long-haired dogs in my life and definatelly not in CR or Slovakia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indiananous
Puppies from WAYTA and OSA have dense, thick fur.

Among the puppies borned of ASTA, they were two females long haired ; for this last point, Nébulosa was on a wrong understanding.
I did not have this information. If it is so, and the only dog common to all the cases of long-hair is Art, then for sure he must be the one who carries the trait for long-hair, even if he himself does not have long hair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indiananous
Instead of calling doubt about mates [( and about a breeder)], it would be better to ask for the good questions. Let's try to find the génétic cause. And, whe should also be able to talk about the "fente palatine" (cleft palate) or about the "syndrome du chiot nageur" (swimming-puppy ?) ! these diseases are typical of the g.s.d and are known among the c.s.w...
Well, I cannot say that I agree with the inbreeding and I never will. It is no doubts, I am sure of that. However, as you say that is not the point now.
I know nothing about genetics, but perhaps Liesbeth would have an idea?

Btw. can you explain, what is "fente palatine" (cleft palate) or about the "syndrome du chiot nageur" (swimming-puppy ?)
I´ve never heard of such diseases and I would like to know more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by indiananous
Who is able to disqualify the male or the bitch after one mate and only one litter ? I matted ART with three females, (the last litter from Asta : 3 long haired, again !) and now I hypothesize that ART, may be the conductor of this long-hair gene.
Of course, that after one litter you cannot be sure of anything. However, after third litter.. If it is so, and you believe that Art makes the puppies long-haired, then you probably should stop using him as stud.
It is a pity, because visibly there is nothing wrong with the dog, but the long-haired puppies are definatelly non-standard.

Also none of the long-haired dogs should be used for further breeding, only that way we can avoid spreading the problem further.
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Old 24-04-2007, 17:56   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1
if it is so, and you believe that Art makes the puppies long-haired, then you probably should stop using him as stud.
It is a pity, because visibly there is nothing wrong with the dog, but the long-haired puppies are definatelly non-standard.
...if only others were so honest as you....
our breed would be better in a couple of years!!
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Old 24-04-2007, 20:33   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkawolf1
if it is so, and you believe that Art makes the puppies long-haired, then you probably should stop using him as stud.
It is a pity, because visibly there is nothing wrong with the dog, but the long-haired puppies are definatelly non-standard.
...if only others were so honest as you....
our breed would be better in a couple of years!!
Agree.. Chapeau bas
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Old 24-04-2007, 21:29   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirkawolf
Btw. can you explain, what is "fente palatine" (cleft palate) or about the "syndrome du chiot nageur" (swimming-puppy ?)
I´ve never heard of such diseases and I would like to know more.
Palatine division ( that's normally comes with harelip)
In the Swimming puppy syndrome the breastbone is introduced bad in to the chest and the puppy have neurological problems for walk, that make he walk as who " swimming", is other ill common in english bulldogues, but they not know nothing about his genetic, only have theory's.
Have cases of Swimming puppy in the CzW already?
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Old 24-04-2007, 22:12   #57
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Quote:
If it is so, and you believe that Art makes the puppies long-haired, then you probably should stop using him as stud.
It is a pity, because visibly there is nothing wrong with the dog, but the long-haired puppies are definatelly non-standard.
Hi Mirka,

It is true that Art carries the gene for long hair, but the females must carry the gene to, in that case. (otherwise there couldn't be puppy's with long hair.

Example (but it isn't as simple as this):
Gene for NORMAL hair is dominant (we use a big letter for it: H)
Gene for LONG hair is recessive (small letter: h)
(I use the letter h of 'hair'. You can use other letters to...)

Art has genotype Hh and the females he has had puppies with also. Then we can make combinations of genes given to the puppies:
Art can give his 'bad' gene (h) to the pup or his normal gene (H) and the female does that also.

H h
H HH Hh

h Hh hh

1/4 of the puppies from the litter will have (theoretically!) genotype HH, so perfectly normal coat. 2/4 will carry the gene for long hair, but will also have a normal coat, because H is dominant over h. 1/4 will have long hair (genotype hh).

If it would be so that only Art carries the gene for long hair (Hh) and the females not (HH), long-haired puppies are impossible:

H H
H HH HH

h Hh Hh

All the puppies of this litter would have normal coat, but 2/4 carries the gene for long hair (and can pass it on to his/her offsprings).

=> All this is true if the gene for long hair is just a recessive gene.

But it possible that there are 'modifying genes' who have an effect on the gene that causes long hair. A modifying gene can stop the gene for long hair from functioning well. It's the same as with the mask of wolfdogs. You have dogs with are very good mask and dogs without a mask. But they all have the same genotype that says: you will have a mask! But modifying genes have an effect on the functioning of that gene. So sometimes it makes the gene work better and sometimes it can almost stop the gene from functioning (Blackmouth).

According me (but who am I?? ), the gene for long hair is also influenced by modifying genes. So when a dog gets the gene from one of his parents => no problem. We a pup gets 2 genes for long hair from it's parents => problem; long hair. But how long the hair is, is influenced by modifying genes. Sometimes the modifying genes will have the effect that the hair just looks a bit wealthier (thick, nice fur; maybe like the 2 examples gives from a litter of Art => can be caused by gene of long hair too, but modified in a way that it doesn't look like long hair). I'm just thinking out loud, I'm nothing saying that all this is true! I'm just searching an explanation (like of you do), and I'm trying to use the concepts I know...

I'm sure it works that way with the mask, but I don't know if this is working for the coat to... I will try to search more information about this, but I haven't got much time these days.

Greetings,

Liesbeth
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Old 25-04-2007, 00:35   #58
indiananous
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Using no more sires who made long haired puppies, it's like hiding our face in the sand, as the ostrich does.
That means it would be necessary to mate ASTA with others dogs, to know if long hair appears once more, and do the same concerning ART with others females. All of this to compare the genetic and, PERHAPS, find a respons.
!!!
But, only two couples ? That's impossible !
We, breeders, are now face to face with real problems among the c.s.w ; we have to try to resolve them. And that means to be clear concerning our puppie's malformations. I've tried many times to discuss about that with others french breeders, but...they NEVER have been concerned in any disease or anything bad !!! Great, isnt't ? My bag was just empty of critics about my kennel....
:
Now, to close the subject about the mating ART/ELZA :

.
When I first met the c.s.w at Mirka's kennel, I really felt in love seeing Asterix eden Severu. I made a promess to myself : once, i'll have a dog like he.
The first litter was an accident (silent heat) ; puppies were great, but none of them looked as Asterix.
As for the second litter, I decided to keep alle the puppies, and I got the dog I wanted : Amarok.
So, if I've to be runned down because of my so strong wish to have the dog I wanted, I'm ready. Since two years now, Amarok give me more love and friendship than others do (I own 10 dogs).
Elza was matted twice again with ART. 8 puppies were born the first time, then 11. All of them have been euthanasied and Elza sterilized.
.
Elza is now sterilized. Let's talk about money : the price for a csw, in France, is about 1100 euros. So, it's easy to understand the lack of money for a kennel.
My purpose is not to "create" long-haired and black-masked csw, but I just wanted my dreams dog.
Long haired csw are no more shy or agressive, and they have no more diseases than short haired csw. I've kept contacts with the owners of my 5 puppies and I allways ask about their growing.
I'll try to find you pictures of a long haired csw with his summer coat.
About the "fente palatine", it would be better to begin an other topic.


Greetings
Nadia
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Old 25-04-2007, 01:26   #59
Dharkwolf
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Ok – this is just a quick overview on the genetics and expression of fur length.

The length of fur in all animals (and of hair in humans, incidentally) is controlled by the hair cycle. (Have to love the original names of these things)

Basically each growing fur strand goes through three phases –

Anagen – This is where the fur is actually growing – ie the strands are lengthening.
Catagen – This is where the fur is in senescence – no longer growing but not shedding either, it’s actually an intermediate phase.
Telogen – This is where the old fur is actually shed.

It probably makes more sense when you actually look at a picture like this one:



Ok – so far so good?

This means in fact that the length of each individual fur strand is determined by two and only two factors:

The rate of growth of the fur
The duration of the Anagen phase (the more time fur spends growing without falling off, the longer the fur will be)

Now for some time there has been this theory going round that a certain gene (FGF5 short for fibroblast growth factor 5 for those of you who like to keep track of these things) that controls the length of the anagen phase. The dominant version of the gene results in a short anagen phase, and therefore in short fur. The recessive version of the gene results in a long anagen phase and therefore long fur.

There is a nice little diagram which explains this one too:


Image from Kingston K.L. Mak et al.

This theory was proven in canines 2006 by D.J.E Housley and P.J Venta which showed that for a number of breeds the short haired version of the dog would have the dominant version of FGF5 and the long haired version of the dog would have the recessive version of FGF5. This was the case in German Shepherds, Corgies, Collies (Border, Smooth haired, Long haired varieties), etc.

Great right? That explains everything!

Well actually it doesn’t. For a number of reasons:

First – the actual hair growth cycle is far more complex than all that. FGF5 works by prolonging the time in Anaphase, but what about factors that affect the actual growth rate of the fur? For instance it is known that there are (undefined) genetic factors in cats which nullify the presumed recessive effect FGF5 – ie if you cross two long haired cats you may get a short haired one (this happens in Persians now and then) This would never happen if you believe in a single determinist factor for fur length – and yet it happens.

So the story is more complicated – here are a few things which are obvious to any wolfdog owner and which really complicate the story in two ways, both by looking at the effect of the coat (as opposed to individual fur strands) and because of the possibility of having other factors come into play:

There are at least two different kinds of fur on a wolfdog – underfur and guard fur. Their length is obviously different so there must be other factor(s) that control the length of the underfur relative to the guard fur.

The winter coat and the summer coats are markedly different – I have not seen any comparative studies on the fur lengths of the coats, but you will probably find that particularly the underfur will have a different length in the winter coat and in the summer coat.

The fur is simply not of equal length all over the body of the dog. Think about it – fur around and within the ears is normally much shorter than that around the rest of the animal. Males are known to have “manes” of longer fur around the collar/neck area (though this effect is also due in part to denser underfur in this area), also the fur on the tail seems to be longer that that on the body (though again – this would need more rigorous study, and is based on casual observation of wolfdogs. I don’t go around pulling out fur from different parts of my girls to check how long they actually are)

It is impossible to explain all of this with the basic “recessive long fur, dominant short fur” model of dog fur. Also it is interesting to note just how short the short fur model is – for instance Dalmatians are said to be normally carriers of the short fur version of FGF5 and I think everyone will agree that if a wolfdog had fur as short as a Dalmatian, there would certainly be something wrong.

So – is there a dominant/recessive gene that affects fur length? Sure, but it only affects the length, it does not determine it. Other factors can be equally important in determining fur length. The genetics of this story are far more complex than simply talking about Mendelean genetics.

One final note on the genetics, there are two ways of determining whether a dog is a carrier or not of a long fur recessive gene – one is breeding with a mate that is known to be a carrier of the recessive gene (not a great idea – but you would expect to get roughly ¼ of the pups longhaired) and the other is to simply test for the variant gene. (for instance this lab offers the test – as well as a few other interesting ones, no affiliation in case you were wondering) Simple no? (Interestingly you can test for quite a few things these days)

As for the wolfdogs themselves and what the implications of this are –

First, don’t judge by photos – it is nearly impossible. If you are going to do so, examine areas that normally would not have long fur. For instance the photo displayed above of Ciro does not in any way show a long coat – if it did the fur around his ears would be abnormally long. It is just the thick winter fur of a male that is made even more prominent because the shot highlights the mane.

Second – looking for the genetic cause for long fur the first thing to look for is FGF5 – there are already commercial tests which will tell you if a dog is a carrier of the “long hair” or the “short hair” version of the FGF5 gene. The solution is there to be used.

Third – and perhaps more tricky – should long fur be selected against, for or neutral? From my point of view the answer is simple – long fur is a fault and should be selected against for a number of reasons:

1) It clearly does not conform with the standard
2) It is likely to impair the working ability of the dog, as the dog is likely to be less resistant to weather conditions (longer fur means that the fur is more likely to get tangled, and paradoxically excessively long guard fur is usually indicative of poor underfur – resulting in worse insulation which can be a problem in warmer, colder and wetter weather conditions)
3) It is very easy to select against. All you need to do is look at a dog (not a photo) to see whether a dog has excessively long fur or not. Of course you can bicker over it, but while it may be difficult to decide whether a given dog has normal or longish fur, excessively long fur is really easy to see (just look at the tufts of fur around the ears, they tend to be easy to spot). If you cannot select against such obvious faults, then the ability to select against more subtle (and possibly more serious faults) is likely to be called in question, it can and will damage your reputation as a breeder. So don’t do it!

Anyhow hope that made it clear. For those of you who are really interested in the genetics of this story I recommend the following references:

Kingston K. L. Mak and Siu Yuen Chan (2003)
Epidermal Growth Factor as a Biologic switch in Hair Growth Cycle
Journal of Biological Chemistry; - Vol 278 No 28 pp 26120-26126.

D. J. E. Housley, P. J. Venta (2006)
The long and the short of it: evidence that FGF5 is a major determinant of canine 'hair'-itability
Animal Genetics 37 (4), 309–315.
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Old 25-04-2007, 02:37   #60
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Well, concerning the hair length of wolves; I've been doing some measuring. The summer fur of the wild Arctic wolf i've measured (upper fur, guard hair), is along the spine area longer; around 13/14 cm., the tailhair is about 17 cm, hair on the muzzle is very short and on top of the head a little longer. The hair on the legs is pretty short too. The underfur is very wooly and about half as long as the upper fur and very dense. The hair is not fluffy-silky like a collies.

It seems to me that in wolves it's a matter of different species, like there's the Mexican wolf, Carpathian wolf, Arctic wolf. The fur of the Mexican wolf is shorter than the fur of the Arctic wolf. Next to that, it has to do with the climate and of course the genes each wolf has inherited individually, just like some people can have longer hair than others. Probably the same goes for thickness of fur.

Also look at this winter coat of the Arctic Wolf: When you look at some pictures in the book of Mech you can see the winterfur is longer than 15 cm (Sorry, somehow i cannot send these photos to this site).

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