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Old 13-05-2004, 12:34   #21
gaulirmorn
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Hi Massimo, Paval, Paul and all,

Thanks for the information, Paul. Hopefully we should get some serious mailing going on!

Do you guys think it would be a good idea to set up a page where people who have emailed the Kennel Club can register their name? That way we can have an idea of just how many people have contacted the Kennel Club? It might come in handy in any court case that might arise, as it will show just how much support, (or lack of it – God forbid), that these breeds have.

It’s probably best to keep it polite too, as any offensiveness will only make matters worse for us. You can still put across your anger to them in a constructive, inoffensive manner. After all, we don’t want to lower ourselves to their level, do we guys?

I think it is really important that we spread the word about what is happening in the UK and that we need as many owners and breeders in Europe to come forward and mail the Kennel Club in support of our fight to get these breeds recognised. I also know that this forum is mainly for the Czech, but please, please, please support the Saarloos Wolfhund too! Both breeds deserve to be accepted onto the UK register, and I ask that people show their support for both Czech and Saarloos.

I think we really need to present a united front in fighting for the UK registration of these breeds, so maybe we could start an online petition too? This would show the authorities that we are sensible and serious about our quest, and again it would give us an indication of the support we are getting.

So, is the petition a good idea, and where shall we put it? Would it be better to put it on your Website, Paul? Once we know where to sign, we can start helping you, Paul.
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Old 13-05-2004, 20:28   #22
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Hi All,
I am in Spain for work at the moment but next sunday there will be the Czech Wolfdog Club meeting in Italy (Serramazzoni); probably one of the biggest Wolfdog meeting there can be (considering the amount of Italian owners).
I was thinking (having enough time) of preparing a leaflet explaining breefly the problem and inviting everybody to send protesting emails.
What do you think??

Again, I think I am more dangerous than my Wolfdog, weaker but more dangerous!!

Massimo
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Old 14-05-2004, 13:50   #23
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Hi Mosi, Massimo, Paval, etc.

This is absolutely brilliant!

What we really need to do now is make people aware of what is going on and really get behind the petition. I think the leaflet ideas are great, and should aid the cause tenfold!

If it is possible to mention in the leaflets the petition that Mosi has started we can get them to sign it too. The more people we can make aware of the situation with these breeds the stronger our case will be against DEFRA and the Kennel Club.

I have already started sending out emails to get people to sign the petition. May I apologise to anyone who has already signed if they get an email off me. Shout it from the rooftops, guys! Let’s try and get thousands of signatures, not just hundreds!

Sorry, I’m a bit excitable at the moment…

So come on people, get mailing, get signing, unite and spread the word!

The UK has the right to the Czechoslovakian wolfdog, (and the Saarloos) and we are not going to give up the breed without a fight!

DEFRA AND THE KC NEED TO BE SHOWN THAT WE, THE EUROPEANWOLFDOG LOVERS, WILL NOT TAKE THIS LYING DOWN!

We are with you, Paul, and we fight beside you!
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Old 18-05-2004, 23:56   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaulirmorn
It seems to me that the UK authorities have had a kind of knee jerk reaction to the Czech and Saarloos breeds because they have a higher wolf content than standard dog breeds. But they are still canines!
What means "higher wolf content than standard dog breeds"? Who checked the wolf content by GSD or other shepherd dogs from Europe?

If we have two dogs with 30% of wolf blood and we make "close" breding (we do not add any other "new" blood) so even after 10000 years of breeding we will have a breed with 30% of wolfblood.. Because the content of the wolfblood by puppies will be:
[30% (from the mother) + 30% (from the father)]/2
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Old 19-05-2004, 08:34   #25
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It is not quite that simple with genetics: After many generations of breeding within a closed population you can't say that these dogs still have 30 % wolf blood. Otherwise all dogs would still be simply wolfs - but they are not - and the wolf has evolved into a dog. The same process is happening with our wolf dogs. Even with the first hybrid generations within a same litter there can be pups almost wolfs and another ones almost dogs. It depends on what genes they have inherited. In later generations all pups will begin to be all similar to each other and that's when they are no hybrids any more. And because of our selective breeding they are getting more and more dogs. You can see this in both FCI Wolf dog breeds CsV and Saarloos. These dogs are, if pure bred, typical Saarloos or typical CsVs - not some crosses between Wolf and dog.

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Old 19-05-2004, 11:19   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto
It is not quite that simple with genetics: After many generations of breeding within a closed population you
I agree with all you say. But what we are talking about is average content of wolfblood. All CzW have about 25-30% of wolfblood (and it does not matter if a dog looks and behaves like a GSD or a CzW) and it will stay so for next 50-100 or more years because there will be no "new" blood addition (anyway I hope so ).
If we will use your way to count the wolfsblood than Saarloos can be compared with German Shepherd Dogs (both breeds have almost the same "age" ). And also a CzW is not a wolfdog anymore....anyway not most of them. And if I should prepare a list with breed which are more "wolfish" (shy/aggresive/dominant) than CzW the list will include some very famous "domestic" breeds too...
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Old 20-05-2004, 14:13   #27
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Hi All,

Something Margo said has been really bugging me for the past few hours and it’s starting to drive me crazy!

Maybe I AM crazy, but I think we should be looking at trying to get the scientific name of the Czech and Saarloos breeds updated by the FCI. (I’m sorry, but the information I have used to illustrate my point is geared towards the Saarloos, though only because I couldn’t find the details for the Czechoslovakian so easily. The theory should pertain to both breeds though.)

At present the Saarloos is registered as ‘Canis lupus x familiaris’; I am finding it impossible to discover what the Czechoslovakian wolfdog is registered as, but I reckon it is probably the same.

I think this is where the problems stem, because if re-classified as ‘canis lupus familiaris’, both breeds would be simple dogs, and therefore beyond the interference of Kennel Club and DEFRA.

Ergo, they would not need a licence.

Sounds simple; probably nigh on impossible; but do you think it would solve some of our problems, Paul?

This is what is bugging me…

The inception studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde states quite categorically that wolves were used to create the German Shepherd breed! The studbook created by Stephanitz lists entries SZ#41 to SZ#76 showing that four pure wolves were used in the original pedigree for the German Shepherd dog!

I quote ‘Mores Plieningen SZ #159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line’

As Margo states, little time passed between the creation of the German Shepherd and Saarloos breeds, just THREE decades in fact.

From the information that I have been able to find it would seem probable that, like the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos breeds are now, the German Shepherd would have begun life scientifically classified as ‘canis lupus x familiaris’ (wolf/dog cross), NOT ‘canis lupus familiaris (dog)’! The breed would HAVE to have been named so because as I have already stated, the GS was the result of selective breeding between wolf AND canine! So if we accept the truth – then the GS started life as a wolf-cross, and is therefore NO DIFFERENT to the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos!

The date I found for the foundation of the German Shepherd breed is 1899, and the United Kingdom Kennel Club accepted the breed in 1919, a mere 20 years later...

Amendments were made to the standard of the German Shepherd on 28th July 1901 and 17th September 1909, and the UKKC accepted the breed before the next amendments took place in 1930.

Now, this is VERY significant, for it PROVES without a shadow of doubt that SOMEWHERE from 1899 to 1919 the German Shepherd ‘evolved’! The UK KC changed it’s consideration of the breed from that of a ‘wolf cross’ – canis lupus x familiaris to that of a dog - canis lupus familiaris.

From 1919 the GS was accepted as just a dog!

Surely then, this MUST set a precedent that the UK Kennel Club considers any wolf/dog breed to be a plain and simple dog after a period of 20 years?

The German Shepherd standard could legally be amended because no further wolf DNA had been added for two decades. Dogs mature and breed far quicker than humans, and the canine authorities of the day must have realised that after 20 years of pure GS breeding, the DNA would have evolved enough for it to be recognisable as that of the German Shepherd breed.

Now, consider the Saarloos wolfdog which has been labelled as ‘canis lupus x familiaris’ since it’s inception in the 1930’s. This breed was last injected with wolf DNA in the 1960s, which means it has been classified as a wolf-cross for TWICE the length of time that the German Shepherd was!

Is this not an injustice?

Even if we say that the MINIMUM time that can pass for a wolfdog to become a dog is 20 years the reclassification of the Saarloos breed to ‘canis lupus familiaris’ is TWO DECADES overdue!

And the Czechoslovakian wolfdog last had wolf blood added in 1983 - 21 years ago!

Surely this means that the DNA of the Czechoslovakian and Saarloos breed must now be that of pure dog breeds, and that they need to be reclassified just as the German Shepherd was?

Given this information, the Kennel Club and DEFRA have no right to place these breeds under the dangerous animal licence…

And, maybe THIS is the angle we need to use?
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Old 23-07-2004, 23:02   #28
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The GSD as I recall reading was set at somewhere about 8% wolf, the originator of the breed calling for breeders not to add any more wolf blood to the breed as he felt he had found the perfect balance. But keep in mind the GSD clubs now deny any wolf heritage in their dogs at all, and all publications after 1923 I believe have been revised to read wolf parentage as unknown , instead of as originally stated. So in other words, they have rewritten to eliminate any indication that that they were developed with wolf blood period.

Based on the GSD you would have an argument to fight the UKC, but without original documents dating back before 1923, or the original german stud books, you may find you lack any solid evidence.

In the 1990's scientists reclassified wolves and dogs concluding that they are in fact the same species, therefore there is no such thing as a wolf hybrid(as applied to dogs)and all dogs are essentially domesticated wolves. So how many generations away from the wolf is required for domestication? This is the question you need to pose to the UKC.

In their(UKC) infinite wisdom they chose to state that any wolf heritage in a breed would eliminate it from being accepted, since it has been proven that all domesticated dogs are descended from wolves, will they remove all breeds from the kennel club?

I read the petition, it is a rant, it will solve nothing, you have to fight on the basis of policy and where that policy is in err...you need to have a legitimate argument and provide evidence and proof that they are in error.

Respectfully,

Stands Alone
(Fighting the AKC as well )
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Old 27-07-2004, 18:05   #29
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Hi Stands Alone,

Thanks for your input it made very interesting reading. It just goes to show just how much stigma is attached to ‘wolf-blood’ inclusion!

I had no idea that GSD society now refutes the inclusion of wolf stock during the inception of their breed. A little silly really, when you consider how easy it is to find the breed’s history on the net; AND that loads of people already KNOW that heavy wolf content was used in its creation!

The very fact that I have been able to find detailed information online shows that their attempts to ‘bastardise’ this breed have failed, though how long that information will stay available remains to be seen.

The ‘wolf heritage’ ban is ridiculous, as, as you state, it would mean the removal of ALL dog breeds from the UKC register.

If this FACT is so blatantly obvious to us mere ‘mortals’, then why cannot the likes of DEFRA and the Kennel Club grasp the concept? Where do think dogs originate –from Camels?!

Furthermore, I feel that our troubles, and argument, lie more so with DEFRA than the KC.

The KC were quite happy to accept Paul’s dogs onto the register UNTIL they were contacted by DEFRA and instructed to remove them. There are those at the KC who are sympathetic to our cause, and feel that the breed is being persecuted for no good reason. It is my impression that we may well convince the Kennel Club, but DEFRA is a whole different ballgame.

Dealing with our Government is NEVER easy, and all the red tape and burocracy that this case could attract may well hold back any break through for years.

Not least to mention that if someone in this country’s hierarchy truly dislikes the idea of wolf dogs in the UK, we will probably never get the breed accepted…!
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Old 28-10-2004, 13:56   #30
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Hi All,

I was just wondering if anyone knows any updated information on the current state of affairs with the wolfdog situation and DEFRA/KC in the UK?

I have emailed Paul a few times in the past couple of months, but have not had a response back. I know he is busy lately, but it is most unlike him not to come back after all this time...

Does anyone know what's happening?

Regards

Gaulirmorn
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Old 28-10-2004, 19:53   #31
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Hello Gaulirmorn,
You must have read my mind I was only thinking of emailing Paul and Mandy myself last night because I too have been wondering about the current state of affairs regarding this subject. Please Paul if you are reading please let us know the situation.Bye for now JP.
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Old 12-11-2004, 00:45   #32
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hey everyone, I was thinking about this problem today and how there has been much less trouble with GSD and Czech Shephards. I wounder if its becaause they are seen as very useful dogs. At least in Australia GSD are in demand and havent been banned because of the large amount of people who use them. The Czech Shephard has been said to be one of the worlds greatest working dogs and therefore have been excepted. The army uses both these breeds. Also neither of these breeds mentions anything that sounds like wolf in there names so unless someone asked they appear as dogs. People become worried about my dog when they hear she has wolf blood but before that they are happy to let their children play with her. Its sad but I agree that this breed has to be marketed as a dog breed that is also useful. Not as an exotic wolfdog.
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Old 14-11-2004, 20:28   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by standsalone
Based on the GSD you would have an argument to fight the UKC, but without original documents dating back before 1923, or the original german stud books, you may find you lack any solid evidence.
I think you already have many information about German Sheperd origins, may be (surely...) including the following content :

http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/pdf/GSD.pdf

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Old 04-12-2004, 16:41   #34
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Many of you will know that the Czezhs are currently banned from the UK,well several of us with great interest have joined together to try and overturn this ban.
We need your help where ever you are if you own a Czech,we need letters telling of your experience with them,their temperament,ease of training and anything else that will show them to be a suitable breed.
Could any of you who speak several languages please translate this letter to other pages,the replies can be in any native tongue.
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Old 04-12-2004, 19:02   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masairotts
We need your help where ever you are if you own a Czech,we need letters telling of your experience with them,their temperament,ease of training and anything else that will show them to be a suitable breed.
I've just translated your letter and put it on the Polish page.

I fully support your initiative and would like to help. I own an 11-year old Czech orphan - Tina and published a story about her under "Stories" in Sept. 2004. It is a really true story: I haven't coloured even a bit the character of my dog and all the described facts are true. However, I'm not sure if it would be of any help since she is not a pedigree dog. Although the vet , breed- specialist confirmed that she seemed to be a Czech of an older type, similar to those from the 80-ies. ( in the gallery under the heading "Old photos"), I don't have any evidence that she's a Czech.
If you think my story could help I'll send it to the address indicated.
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Old 06-12-2004, 02:56   #36
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Thank you for the recent posts on the Czech,s uk banned problem we will be very greatfull for any help possible from any country.
I was pleased to see some responses, we understand it will difficult to changed the opinon of defra but we are not asking for a miricle just to enjoy our dog as you can without people thinking they will be eaten by our dogs.
Defra and the public in the uk need to be educated and you have the experience we need.
Please keep the emails coming in.
Andre
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Old 06-12-2004, 09:17   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacino
we understand it will difficult to changed the opinon of defra but we are not asking for a miricle just to enjoy our dog as you can without people thinking they will be eaten by our dogs.
Defra and the public in the uk need to be educated and you have the experience we need.
Knowing the conservative attitude of British institutions to any novelties I'm almost sure that it'll be very diffficult to register Czechs, but once you succeed things will speed up. In about 10-15 years DEFRA will claim that this is a true British breed and will undertake attempts to change it's name to "English Wolfdog"
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Old 06-12-2004, 14:16   #38
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Rona,
I think this is very true,they always like to make it seem that it is their great idea but we are going to give them a fight to get the Czeck legal in the UK.
Paul
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Old 06-12-2004, 17:21   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masairotts
Rona,
I think this is very true,they always like to make it seem that it is their great idea but we are going to give them a fight to get the Czeck legal in the UK.
Paul
I'll keep my fingers crossed! Please, keep us informed on the developments
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Old 06-12-2004, 20:26   #40
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Something that would be a great help to us is how the percentage wolf is calculated in the Czezhs,is it from following the breedine lines or is some other method used.
Paul
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