Puppy in California

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

As HD is genetical but also depending on the upbringing of the dog I find this rather strange to give as a guarantee, what you do out of personal care is something different.
For me this makes a trading object out of your dog, like a car for example.

Law in Europe is simple on that point, if you pair two dogs that you know to give genetical problems to their offspring with high risk you have to stand for the following problems, especially if you didn´t tell the buyers in advance. If you did your best to avoid any problem you can exclude this risk because you are not responsible for problems you didn´t know of and therefor couldn´t prevent.

Ina

[yukidomari]

Yes, I understand that HD is genetic as well as environmental, but as certain cases go, I can imagine that if it was severe or bilateral, it may sometimes be concluded to be more genetic rather than environmental. Actually, I don't know how much environment 'causes' HD, because I haven't read of any conclusive links between HD and things like exercise, diet, or otherwise. So if you know of any, I would really like to know. I have heard of very old dogs also, maybe around 11 or 12 years old, that still had OFFA scanned hips that were "Excellent", and he was an Aussie used for real herding. I believe our breeder believed our dog's luxating patellae were genetic because it was bilateral, and because it was diagnosed right around when genetic LPs usually are diagnosed.

Anyway, it is not so much a trade, as you don't give back the original dogs, at least, not in the contracts that I have read and agreed with. You can choose to keep your dog and when the time is right take the additional dog that will fulfill the original purpose (work, show).

But, I think many breeders also feel that some conditions are environmental as well. It's popular here for 'guarantees' to end right at 24 months old, right around when HD, if it will appear badly, to appear.

I understand legally, someone may not be liable, but it seems like the right thing to do... If a puppy buyer ends up with a disabled dog, I don't think I could just say to myself, 'that's very sad.. But just bad luck.'

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

There have been done studies in Berlin by Dämmrich ed.al. on the influence of feeding and exercise on HD. It must have been in the ninetees and I think it was published in "Kleintiermedizin".
I mainly agree but there is a legal difference between guarantee and taking care.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry but this is simply not true. It depends on the country and the breeder...

I support this opinion. All Polish breeders I know, offer a contract! E.g. Margo asks an owner to sign a 3-page agreement where the rights of the pup/dog are very well protected! The "z Peronówki" dog must be X-rayed when adult, and should obtain breeding rights in congruence with local law by the time it is 3 years old (even if not used for breeding!). It cannot be re-sold without the agreement of the breeder and if anything goes wrong the breeder should be informed about it asap under a penalty clause.

It's another question whether the owners obey the contracts or not Unfortuantely, our courts do not treat breaking breeding contracts too seriously and it'd take ages by the time the case appeared. So it's more a matter of honour/decendcy to fulfil the requirements, than a legal issue.

Originally Posted by Rona

I support this opinion. All Polish breeders I know, offer a contract! E.g. Margo asks an owner to sign a 3-page agreement where the rights of the pup/dog are very well protected! The "z Peronówki" dog must be X-rayed when adult, and should obtain breeding rights in congruence with local law by the time it is 3 years old (even if not used for breeding!).

I'm curious, how would something like this work in a country like the US where there really ARE no "breeding rights" to speak of. Would it transfer to getting show or sport titles? Or is there a way to gain breeding rights when you're out of the country (as in, gaining the right to breed in Poland while living in the US). I'm also curious, what does it take to breed with the FCI? Are people in the US limited in anyway as far as registering litters?

[yukidomari]

Ina - I understand what you're saying now and I agree. Thanks for clarifying.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Vicky

I'm also curious, what does it take to breed with the FCI? Are people in the US limited in anyway as far as registering litters?

In Europe almost every country has different national requirements for granting breeding rights + there are particular breed clubs that may add additional conditions, such as bonitation, endurance run, HD/ED X-rays, etc. etc.

Most national kennel clubs function under the auspices of the FCI and FCI encourages to respect the law of particular countries. This means that if the dog gains breeding rights in country A he may be used as rep in country B even though he does not fulfil the requirements for a rep in country B. This is theory, because in reality national specific breed clubs may limit such practices by not agreeing to certain matches or refusing to register litters of such parent. It could serve in favour or against breed development, depending on the knowledge, ambitions and intentions of the policy-makers.

I have no idea how this system corresponds with the US one but I think Marcy has already conducted research and wrote about it in some other thread some time ago. Check on her website if you don't find it on WD.

I think breeders solve the problem of sending pups abroad according to their common sense and to the extent they feel responsible for their pups' welfare. Usually they try to get to know future owners by corresponding with them for a while, gather opinions of other owners, ask them to come to collect the pup personally (which often is cheaper/ safer than cargo), or even take the pups themselves to see in what conditions it will live and to check if the owner may be trusted. I think the personal/ethical side is more important here than the contract, especially when one sends the dog to another continent.

Unfortunately, breeders who send the pups most eagerly abroad, without even a contract not to mention proper 'owner research' are usually the least reliable...

[Pete]

testing to post

[Pete]

Sorry I am having trouble posting for some reason. I have 2 WD's from Germany and I love them. I have raised Cane Corso for several years, my first had HD at 5 months old and I was given a 14 week old pup with a limp, terrible temperament, lunged at kids that young and never stopped, scared of everything and everyone. I named her Belmonte's Double or Noth'n and guess what I ended up with!! From there I imported my pups flying over several times to pick them myself. I have bred many very nice litters and I have always offered a 3 year health guarantee on all pups. I have delivered pups to Vancouver and Halifax to meet the owners, I have driven almost to Canada twice to meet people and rehome adult dogs. I am available 7 days per week to all my puppy owners, I request pics to be able to watch thier growth and health. I have been very lucky not having to replace pups left and right like some have and I am happy with that, so are my puppy owners. I feel my 3 year health guarantee shows my confidence in my breeding program unlike those that offer 2 years as one poster stated when HD might just start to appear. I understand HD is/can be genetic and or environmental but I prefer to back up what I produce unless of course I have reason not to. I have only replaced a couple dogs for HD and I know most owners don't xray unless there is a problem but there are breeders having to replace pups before they are even a year old so I consider myself very lucky. I like using email rather then phone calls because I then have something to refer back to and if I feel something in that email is not right I am able to question it in a later email and in most case's that person does not remember what they have already said. People can tell you what they think you want to hear so even the best screaning sometimes is not good enough.

[yukidomari]

Pete, with the CCs and the CsVs, I assume you're Blusteel, right?

[Pete]

Good morning Yukidomari, yes I am Blusteel Cane Corso. Our breed just recently went full recognition with AKC and I proudly say that 2 of the 5 invitations to our first Westminster Show have been given to 2 males produced by 2 of my males! I will be there to watch this historical event, I don't even care if they place they will always have the invitations!

[Gypsy Wolf]

Good luck at Westminster! I will be there showing my Malinois, Ch TriSorts Zorro del Mango, RE. Can't wait for the day I can show one of my Vlcaks there. Hoping to at least be able to do Meet the Breed at the upcoming Eukanuba National Championships in Orlando...

[Gypsy Wolf]

Ina, the problem with contracts - especially from Europe - is enforcing them. I have been involved in importing (probably hundreds by now) GSD and Belgian Shepherds from Europe since 1994 and have NEVER had a breeder even suggest a contract. It is nice to see there are a few Vlcak breeders who do it, but even so, how to enforce it here? We have problems enforcing contracts even across state lines, let alone across the pond... I have a contract for each of my puppies, but again, I can list a bunch of "failed" contracts I have heard about from other dog friends... especially if you do not have the money for a big legal battle. And even the flip side - I know of a guy whose 7 month old GSD dropped dead from Sub-Aortic Stenosis and the breeder ended up not holding up her end of the bargain...
Yukodomari, I have attended a multitude of Breeder's Symposiums both at the University of Pennsylvania and University of Florida and HD is described as a multi-factorial issue. Yes, genetics play a big part, but environment and nutrition do, too. A pup with the best genetics can develop HD from inappropriate environment (slick kennel surface) or bad nutrition (puppy food which has an inappropriate calcium to phosphorous ratio and often too much protein as well as unbalanced raw diet). In fact, as a vet tech I saw this so often that in my own puppy contract I stipulate environment and nutritional needs to hopefully prevent problems.
I am sure you can find scientific studies and information by contacting PennHIP vet Dr. Gail Smith. There is a lot of "anecdotal" stuff out there online, too - ask the Dane people about the evils of puppy food! - or I am sure if there are breeders seminars offered in your area... Pat Hastings goes into it in her Puppy Puzzle seminar, too, with a very impressive collection of her own information - pictures, etc...

[yukidomari]

Congrats on the invite, Pete @ Blusteel!

Additionally,

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Yukodomari, I have attended a multitude of Breeder's Symposiums both at the University of Pennsylvania and University of Florida and HD is described as a multi-factorial issue. Yes, genetics play a big part, but environment and nutrition do, too. A pup with the best genetics can develop HD from inappropriate environment (slick kennel surface) or bad nutrition (puppy food which has an inappropriate calcium to phosphorous ratio and often too much protein as well as unbalanced raw diet). ......There is a lot of "anecdotal" stuff out there online, too - ask the Dane people about the evils of puppy food! -

I did go to some UPenn seminars on HD since one of our dogs has pretty severe HD... it is multi faceted, of course. Just one thing about "puppy food" and giant breeds - I disagree wholeheartedly with the old practice of switching puppies to 'adult' food at 4 months... the problem is, as you say, Cals/Phos ratio, not the additional fat or protein in puppy food. In fact recent published reports confirm that high protein is not the cause for things like irregular rapid growth.

In "Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll

(emphasis added are mine)

Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton. In Great Dane puppies, a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy derived from protein can result in significant decreases in bodyweight and plasma albumin and urea concentrations.9,10 The minimum adequate level of dietary protein depends on digestibility, amino acids, and their availability from protein sources. A growth food should contain > 22% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value...

Often puppies are switched from growth to maintenance-type foods to avoid calcium excess and skeletal disease. However, because some maintenance foods have much lower energy density than growth foods, the puppy must consume more dry matter volume to meet its energy requirement. If the calcium levels are similar (dry matter basis) between the two foods, the puppy will actually consume more calcium when fed the maintenance food. This point is exemplified in the case of switching a 15-week-old, 15-kg male Rottweiler puppy from a growth food containing, on an as fed b asis, 4.0 kcal/g metabolizable energy and 1.35% calcium (1.5% on a dry matter basis) to a maintenance food containing the same amount of calcium but at a lower, 3.2 kcal/g energy density. The puppy would require approximately 1,600 kcal/day. In order to meet this energy need the puppy would consume approximately 400g of the growth food (containing 5.4g of calcium) vs. 500g of the maintenance food (containing approximately 6.7g of calcium).

Out of all grain free food I know of, the only one with appropriate Cal/Phos for puppies are Orijen and Acana.. even the ones like Taste of the Wild that claim to be "all life breeds" have calcium and phosphorus levels that exceed what I find acceptable and acceptable by published reports.

The problem is finding a correct food with correct cals/phos, not that puppy food is inherently bad for giant growing puppies. In fact many foods marketed as "puppy food" probably don't meet the appropriate levels, either. Suffice to say that adult foods generally have inappropriate C/P levels for puppies, too. A mentor/breeder with Great Danes as well as friends showing Mastiffs have similarly reflected these ideas - and for them, keeping a puppy on an appropriate puppy food is recommended until at least the giant breed is done growing, at least around 1 year old if not more.

[Gypsy Wolf]

Well we can agree to disagree. I have been "in dogs" professionally since 1991, and base my opinions on not only emerging science, but what I have seen with my own eyes. Dogs presenting with Pano due to Puppy food, switched to Adult or even a Senior formula and seeing the disease resolve, not to mention the other growth disturbances I have personally seen in dogs raised on Puppy food, like severe "Eastie-Westie" fronts. You can diagnose E-W fronts due to nutrition vs. genetics by picking the dog up behind the elbows and letting the front legs dangle. If they hang straight but go E-W on the floor, it is nutritional. If they hang E-W it's genetic.
Scientific studies throughout have brought in cal-phos and protein-fat ratios to the table as reasons - regardless of the mechanism, I have seen it time and again.
It is likely that some of the pet food companies have made steps to help regulate growth through large breed formulas, but I don't necessarily trust them. I know of vets who see a Dane come in and their first thought is "cha-ching!" - yes, go ahead and feed puppy - I will tell you to switch once you present with Pano and later, bloat...
I never feed Puppy at all - simply Adult formulas. I stay away from crazy high protein level foods (like Evo) until the pup is at least 12 months old and make sure that chicken fat is not in the top 4 ingredients if I can help it, as it has been linked to bloat.
I also take care to keep them lean, no "pounding" (running a distance or jumping a lot) on the joints until they are 24 months old, and I exercsie them moderately.
It has worked well for me - none of my large breed dogs have ever had an issue - all have xrayed as good as, or better, than their parents, and so far the few pups I have produced have also followed suit.
Everyone raises their dog(s) as they see fit. What works for one may not work for another - even individual metabolism is different - so there are no hard and fast rules - just what I have found to work for me.

[yukidomari]

Yes, agree to disagree. I tend to view anecdotal evidence with a skeptical approach, being that they are unproven and not empirical. Everyone is different, as you say, though.

[Gypsy Wolf]

I am just as skeptical about scientific research - many studies have been skewed so that the results look favorable to the funding party. I have been in human medicine my whole life (my parents are a cardiac surgeon and an Operating Room Registered Nurse and I am a Nationally Certified Surgical Technologist), and I have seen many, many studies being disproven, many new drugs being pushed based on skewed numbers, while cheap long-time standbys are ignored, even though they are the better choice, and patients DYING because of it.
Of all the things I have done in my life, I consider myself primarily an "Ethologist" - someone who studies animal behavior in their own environment - and this field is all anecdotal. Is it fair to say animals do not have "feelings" because we cannot prove it scientifically?
So, for me, I read the science, I listen to what others have experienced, but most of my beliefs are via my own eyes. Do I believe a study that someone may have skewed for their own benefit or my own eyes?

[yukidomari]

Of course whenever business interests are involved you can get skewed results, even so called studies. Ever read some 'studies' (read: marketing) produced by Purina? Hilarious! That's why it's important to note the funding parties and if the study is conducted in a scientific way with things like reproducible results and peer review.

That doesn't discount science for me.. Simply how and why it is reported.

You cite being 'in dogs' for x years, where you work, etc, but I don't understand what that adds?

Anyway, I don't really want to argue, so ..

Happy new year and congrats on the Westminster invite too.

[Gypsy Wolf]

I think there is a huge difference between say, having had a dog or two your whole life versus someone who has professional experience "in dogs"... for instance, I have personally trained hundreds of dogs of every breed (just about) and mix of breeds, with every sort of "past history" you can imagine. I cut my teeth on shelter dogs for the first 5 years I trained - and gained invaluable experience about aggressive behavior in the process. I was a Vet Tech for years - not only for a "regular" small animal vet, but for a canine dermatologist as well as an exotic vet. I also have been training and competing in AKC, UKC, schutzhund, IABCA for almost as long, earning titles, as well as dabbling in other sports like agility, herding, water work, seiger shows... from having so many contacts in all different breeds, venues, etc., you gain not only experience with your own dogs (or client dogs), but through learning from peers and mentors in the various fields.
I think there is something to be said for someone who has gotten invited to Eukanuba 3 times with 2 different dogs, has competed at Westminster 3 times, has put titles on not only my own dogs but client's dogs - you get to know a lot of folks, and if you are a total pain in the ass when it comes to picking people's brains (I love talking to judges, etc.) you learn a lot. Mind you, I didn't get into the above national events because I have money, either - I did it myself. Granted I have some nice dogs, but it is also hard work and experience that makes for a well-conditioned, well-behaved, professional dog out there in the ring.
I also am probably a little obsessive about learning everything possible... for instance, it was 15 years "in dogs" before I dared breed my own litter. Yes, I had whelped and raised litters for others, but it was not until I had what I thought was "enough" knowledge about my breed and bloodlines before I took the leap... 15 years of Breeders Symposiums, and I wasn't even a breeder yet!
But that's what I think "adds"... that I have a LOT of not only personal experience, but "inherited" experience through my mentors and peers... not just studies or things one might find on-line, but personal exposure - often my knowledge even has to be kept hush-hush because certain people do not want the "bad stuff" leaking out, but at least I get the benefit of knowing things that others don't...

[yukidomari]

OK.