Tamaskan CsW crossing

Nebulosa · 02-11-2012, 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by leila

this part is the most important in this whole thing... only wolf looklike, no wolf blood!!! so what about creating a new breed or fresh blood??? fresh wolfblood for good look? you are creating mixes, that are not at all tamaskan breed. it should be only dogsg like NO or siberians, who look like wolves, but have NO WOLF BLOOD!

Even being a Finnish breed, wasn't tamaskan a breed selected mainly in UK?!
Sometimes I have the feeling that Tamaskan was made ALSO as a way to hide wolfblooded animals from specific rules that had put "wolfdogs" in "dangerous dog list".
I really dont see any sense in the existence of this so-to-say "breed" .

yukidomari · 02-11-2012, 19:04

anyway, pointing to 'Jennie' or whomever as Blustag/Blufawn as the source of the inaccuracies/outright lies in the history of these dogs is a convenient 'fall guy', for sure, for the newly-chaired 'TDR', since several members repeated her same claims often enough. For example, why now does the 'TDR' admit that Oskari was indeed used? What changed? Has there been conclusive DNA evidence to refute the previous position? Oskari (Oxbow Leva Neve) has long since passed away, but for many years there was already word that he was the sire of several of the dogs imported from Finland.

And about temperament - the CzW temperament has long been criticized by this group. And now several claim they know the progeny of Oskari and other CzW mixes with temperaments they like, so according to this, not a reason not to cross them. My question - why breed something and hope you DON'T get the associated temperament? Why not breed FOR something you want instead?

And lastly, with the admitted inclusion of wolf's blood, what's the difference between this group of dogs and Saarloos?

Czertice · 03-11-2012, 13:38

From what I understand, they are trying to create a breed that looks like a wolf, but has the temperament of labrador. A dog for all the people who love wolves, but are not prepared to deal with one in their own house. A dog for all those unhappy/uninformed people who obtain a real wolfdog only to find he is NOT a poodle.

Right now they are at the stage of a wide range of crosses of saarloos, csw, husky, american wolfdog, malamute and whatnot. The temperaments differ accordingly. Those dogs are inbred already, there is no other option than outcrossing or letting yet another wolf-lookalike experiment fail.

There are CSWs mixed in northern sledding breeds already, but I don't see CSW breeders fainting in horror at the impurity of such mixing. Why? Because no one puts up notices of such matings on internet.

Seeing how many such experiments of creating a wolfy dog already happened, we should be glad that there is one underway which is open about the founding animals and shares information with the public. If they succeed in their goal, i suppose there won't be as many people willing to cross CSWs to create the mythical wolfdog without the wolf.

Puma · 03-11-2012, 13:49

First of all, it has not been 'open', the breeder didnot inform the NVTW, the Dutch Czechsolovakian Wolfdog association, at which the breeder is registered. So 'open' is not that open.

Second, being 'open' doesn't mean being right, is it?

A criminal act in public, is still a criminal act, just to put it in perspective.

To me this is not so mich about the intentions of the Tamaskan side, but all about the intentions of the CSW breeder. And her intentions are purely commercial: making money.

miran · 03-11-2012, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puma

To me this is not so mich about the intentions of the Tamaskan side, but all about the intentions of the CSW breeder. And her intentions are purely commercial: making money.

Even when you know ( and this breeder also know that) that these mating will not happen when there aren't enough people on the list for the pups?

Puma · 03-11-2012, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by miran

Even when you know ( and this breeder also know that) that these mating will not happen when there aren't enough people on the list for the pups?

Especially when the mating will only happen with enough people on the list. That confirms the commercial goal, doesn't it?

miran · 03-11-2012, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puma

Especially when the mating will only happen with enough people on the list. That confirms the commercial goal, doesn't it?

Not in my eyes. Because if it was a commercial goal( beside that in my opinion every nest is even from 1 that just had 1 in there life because no breeder give their pups away fro free

) than you would have this nest no matter what
Than you do not care about if people are interested in an outcross pup or not. And than also you sell them as the same price as a tamaskan and not a reduced price because they are outcross and needs to be evaluated on an later age etc etc.
But of course it is just the way someone can look at it and all have the right of a different opinion....But when all is out in the open( so being done honestly and we all know that lots of people in every breed even do that) and they thought about what and how sorry than I can not see that the main goal is commercial but than I only think that I wish all breeders would think about that so no pup have to leave there nest when they are already months old or like some others have in their short lives different houses already because they where leftover form a litter so people just took them because they felt sorry But like I say just my opinion and you do not have to share that

Puma · 03-11-2012, 15:42

Miran,

Do you know this breeder? I do.

Lots of experiences, which I won't mention here.

Your comment about not giving away pups for free, as a statement as if each breeder is commercially driven, makes of course no sense at all. Thankfully there are breeders with the passion and love for the animals and the breed, who break even or even lose out some money and there are breeders, whose sole intention is to make money and use the breed for doing so.

I know who is in which category.

Angelika · 03-11-2012, 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Even being a Finnish breed, wasn't tamaskan a breed selected mainly in UK?!
Sometimes I have the feeling that Tamaskan was made ALSO as a way to hide wolfblooded animals from specific rules that had put "wolfdogs" in "dangerous dog list".

Yes, Paula, I´ve the same feeling. Wolfdogs were banned in the U.K. So it seems that they mixed a bit and called their "wolf-a-like dogs without any wolfblood" Utonagan - a name without any advertising effect. After a little tour to Finland a new name was created: Tamaskan. Sounds better - grin.

Quote:

I really dont see any sense in the existence of this so-to-say "breed" .

If I understand Puma correctly I should answer with a Liza Minnelli-song

wolfin · 04-11-2012, 03:13

from my info

price for this or others mix are and biger like have pure CSV with FCI pedigree

and why you think not are breeder who thake away puppy free. I know a few breeders, I self thake away for very good owners few puppy free too

but not believe in free tamaskans from this litter

or with price include vactination and pet pasport

Rona · 04-11-2012, 10:37

I see major problem with nomenclature, i.e. what the term "open" means. It used to be the opposite of "secret" but for some people here seems a synonyme of "noble" "honest" or "ethical".

If I said to any of you: "I openly admit that I plan to kidnap and kill your vlcak, becacuse I need its body for an important experiment", would you consider me honest or ethical? Would you excuse such doing or consider it noble? Well, you should, I was being open, unlike many who just steal dogs for such purposes.

If somebody who calls himself a breeder openly plans to take part in the process of breed destruction IMO isn't honest, but cynical (or just ignorant and greedy

).

Whatever the end of the "Stephanie-gate" is, FCI and national KCs should definitely undertake more effective efforts in educating its members, so they would better understand the mission and goals of the organisation and the sense and goals of breeding as such.

loco · 04-11-2012, 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

If somebody who calls himself a breeder openly plans to take part in the process of breed destruction IMO isn't honest, but cynical (or just ignorant and greedy

).

.........

!!!

miran · 04-11-2012, 13:31

Quote:

but not believe in free tamaskans from this litter or with price include vactination and pet pasport

I can only say to this that litters registered by the TBA or TDR must have their vaccinations, passports, vet checkup, and DM test because one of the parents is a carrier.

wolfin · 04-11-2012, 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by miran

I can only say to this that litters registered by the TBA or TDR must have their vaccinations, passports, vet checkup, and DM test because one of the parents is a carrier.

this mas have all dogs puppy not important what a breed are

I speak about price

I think they cost moore not this minimum price who mas pay breeder for vactination pet pasport and DM test

02-11-2012, 19:04	#2
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	anyway, pointing to 'Jennie' or whomever as Blustag/Blufawn as the source of the inaccuracies/outright lies in the history of these dogs is a convenient 'fall guy', for sure, for the newly-chaired 'TDR', since several members repeated her same claims often enough. For example, why now does the 'TDR' admit that Oskari was indeed used? What changed? Has there been conclusive DNA evidence to refute the previous position? Oskari (Oxbow Leva Neve) has long since passed away, but for many years there was already word that he was the sire of several of the dogs imported from Finland. And about temperament - the CzW temperament has long been criticized by this group. And now several claim they know the progeny of Oskari and other CzW mixes with temperaments they like, so according to this, not a reason not to cross them. My question - why breed something and hope you DON'T get the associated temperament? Why not breed FOR something you want instead? And lastly, with the admitted inclusion of wolf's blood, what's the difference between this group of dogs and Saarloos? __________________ "Learn to do well; seek judgment." www.greyfarer.com/

03-11-2012, 13:38	#3
Czertice Rakša Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Praha Posts: 292	From what I understand, they are trying to create a breed that looks like a wolf, but has the temperament of labrador. A dog for all the people who love wolves, but are not prepared to deal with one in their own house. A dog for all those unhappy/uninformed people who obtain a real wolfdog only to find he is NOT a poodle. Right now they are at the stage of a wide range of crosses of saarloos, csw, husky, american wolfdog, malamute and whatnot. The temperaments differ accordingly. Those dogs are inbred already, there is no other option than outcrossing or letting yet another wolf-lookalike experiment fail. There are CSWs mixed in northern sledding breeds already, but I don't see CSW breeders fainting in horror at the impurity of such mixing. Why? Because no one puts up notices of such matings on internet. Seeing how many such experiments of creating a wolfy dog already happened, we should be glad that there is one underway which is open about the founding animals and shares information with the public. If they succeed in their goal, i suppose there won't be as many people willing to cross CSWs to create the mythical wolfdog without the wolf. __________________

03-11-2012, 15:42	#8
Puma Ottokar lovers Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 271	Miran, Do you know this breeder? I do. Lots of experiences, which I won't mention here. Your comment about not giving away pups for free, as a statement as if each breeder is commercially driven, makes of course no sense at all. Thankfully there are breeders with the passion and love for the animals and the breed, who break even or even lose out some money and there are breeders, whose sole intention is to make money and use the breed for doing so. I know who is in which category. Last edited by Puma; 03-11-2012 at 17:57.

04-11-2012, 03:13	#10
wolfin Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Where the wolf lives Posts: 6,095	from my info price for this or others mix are and biger like have pure CSV with FCI pedigree and why you think not are breeder who thake away puppy free. I know a few breeders, I self thake away for very good owners few puppy free too but not believe in free tamaskans from this litter or with price include vactination and pet pasport __________________

04-11-2012, 10:37	#11
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	I see major problem with nomenclature, i.e. what the term "open" means. It used to be the opposite of "secret" but for some people here seems a synonyme of "noble" "honest" or "ethical". If I said to any of you: "I openly admit that I plan to kidnap and kill your vlcak, becacuse I need its body for an important experiment", would you consider me honest or ethical? Would you excuse such doing or consider it noble? Well, you should, I was being open, unlike many who just steal dogs for such purposes. If somebody who calls himself a breeder openly plans to take part in the process of breed destruction IMO isn't honest, but cynical (or just ignorant and greedy ). Whatever the end of the "Stephanie-gate" is, FCI and national KCs should definitely undertake more effective efforts in educating its members, so they would better understand the mission and goals of the organisation and the sense and goals of breeding as such. __________________ Last edited by Rona; 04-11-2012 at 10:40.

03-11-2012, 13:49	#4
Puma Ottokar lovers Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 271	First of all, it has not been 'open', the breeder didnot inform the NVTW, the Dutch Czechsolovakian Wolfdog association, at which the breeder is registered. So 'open' is not that open. Second, being 'open' doesn't mean being right, is it? A criminal act in public, is still a criminal act, just to put it in perspective. To me this is not so mich about the intentions of the Tamaskan side, but all about the intentions of the CSW breeder. And her intentions are purely commercial: making money.