Responsible breeding - health

[solowolf]

just been reading all the posts congratulating the first litter of Czechoslovakian wolfdogs in south America, glad to see mother and puppies are doing well, i see all the mails are from our regular crew on wolfdog.org, the same crew that are very pass remarkable about breeders in uk, about the breed and health problems, yet here we have a dog used with a hip score C , or in uk or Australia C is equal to 26-35, sorry but in uk this dog would never of been in any breeding programme with hip score so high, and before you all start defending any breedings have a look at the average hip score of your breed as a whole,,,, you rabbit on about what needs to be done for the good of the breed, give all info on line about health problems and all the tests we need to do before breeding, but then it seems o.k. if its a friend who breeds useing high hip scored animals, and it is a high score by breed standards, you people never cease to amaze me, there is no excuse for useing this dog in any breedings, so dont patronise me with any jumped up excuses's, i am sick of listening to a load of hypocrites on this forum, now go practice what you all preach and breed healthy dogs,

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by solowolf

just been reading all the posts congratulating the first litter of Czechoslovakian wolfdogs in south America, glad to see mother and puppies are doing well, i see all the mails are from our regular crew on wolfdog.org, the same crew that are very pass remarkable about breeders in uk, about the breed and health problems, yet here we have a dog used with a hip score C , or in uk or Australia C is equal to 26-35, sorry but in uk this dog would never of been in any breeding programme with hip score so high, and before you all start defending any breedings have a look at the average hip score of your breed as a whole,,,, you rabbit on about what needs to be done for the good of the breed, give all info on line about health problems and all the tests we need to do before breeding, but then it seems o.k. if its a friend who breeds useing high hip scored animals, and it is a high score by breed standards, you people never cease to amaze me, there is no excuse for useing this dog in any breedings, so dont patronise me with any jumped up excuses's, i am sick of listening to a load of hypocrites on this forum, now go practice what you all preach and breed healthy dogs,

hmmm,
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o1066.html
I not see HD ED results.

[martiou07]

I am in the same case that Paula, i use a female being A/C, therefore officially C. Paula used her coming standard on a female a relatively healthy line. Now, knowing optics of Paula, who is relatively close to me, I know very well; it will do one followed its pups, as much more it acts of the first range South America!!!! Thus for my part, any hypocrisy!!! and again, congratulation for this first Paula range!!!

now, I include/understand your fear concerning Dysplasie ..... but Solowolf…. for my part, i have much more fear concerning the breedings using this dog as a close ancestor …. http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1167
a little risky to promote a race in a country where the livestock builds itself….

you include/understand me Solowolf

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

hmmm,
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/dbase/o1066.html
I not see HD ED results.

we have been removed from breeders listings and our flag also removed, from previous posts the uk breeders have been offended and now black listed by moderators on wolfdog.org. we get recognition from uk kennel club within 2 months, we have had the law changed after 6 year fight with authorities, we have all dogs health tested, we have worked hard and earned our place with our beautiful dogs only to be shunned by know it all people on this forum, and you seriously think we will give any information to this web site. we have 3 breeders of pure czechoslovakian wolfdogs in uk and this week sees a forth, we have imported new blood lines from European breeders and more will arrive soon,we only work with serious breeders from Europe who are helping us , not knocking us back and taking the p..s out of us, if half you people had as much fight for the breed as we do in uk we may respect you, over the past 6 yrs myself and Andre tanner have had to move home to protect our dogs, we have had to move them to stop them being siezed by the authorities, we have been threatened with going to jail and heavy fines, but we would not give in, and your people remove us and our countries flag and think we will dissapear, NO CHANCE... it is very obvious that certain peole on this site are anti British, or maybe they can explain to us all on line for the removal, as we have often asked over the past two years with no reply??? so back to the subject if you want healthy dogs then why are C rated hip scores in a breeding programme. and everyone who sent congratulations then must also see nothing wrong with this type of breeding. and i hasen to add these people are the first to slam anyone else outside the circle of friends who does anything untowards in breeding. i rest my case and just hope new owners of any Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs dont get advise on breeding from you lot......

[wolfin]

i NOT see HD ED results in Wolfdog.org
and I SEE very problematic linie dogs in your kennel- dog without HD ED with HD E in yours linie.
sorry but Nebulosa have healtest linie and dogs, not You.
I wish have puppy from shes kennel but for You not, when i see big risik for bad HD and others problems.
yes this is me opinion but maybe when speak about others people first see who have self.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by martiou07

I am in the same case that Paula, i use a female being A/C, therefore officially C. Paula used her coming standard on a female a relatively healthy line. Now, knowing optics of Paula, who is relatively close to me, I know very well; it will do one followed its pups, as much more it acts of the first range South America!!!! Thus for my part, any hypocrisy!!! and again, congratulation for this first Paula range!!!

now, I include/understand your fear concerning Dysplasie ..... but Solowolf…. for my part, i have much more fear concerning the breedings using this dog as a close ancestor …. http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1167
a little risky to promote a race in a country where the livestock builds itself….

you include/understand me Solowolf

then we have been very lucky so far as no hip scores from our breedings is over 9.thank you for your very knid concern.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

i NOT see HD ED results in Wolfdog.org
and I SEE very problematic linie dogs in your kennel- dog without HD ED with HD E in yours linie.
sorry but Nebulosa have healtest linie and dogs, not You.
I wish have puppy from shes kennel but for You not, when i see big risik for bad HD and others problems.
yes this is me opinion but maybe when speak about others people first see who have self.

what more could one expect from good old wolfin.......

[martiou07]

I wish you it there do not have a problem, to see in some generations ...... i hope that you will keep us informed…

all this, simply to say to you, before criticizing, lean favours over your work before coming to criticize

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

i NOT see HD ED results in Wolfdog.org
and I SEE very problematic linie dogs in your kennel- dog without HD ED with HD E in yours linie.
sorry but Nebulosa have healtest linie and dogs, not You.
I wish have puppy from shes kennel but for You not, when i see big risik for bad HD and others problems.
yes this is me opinion but maybe when speak about others people first see who have self.

i love posting this site, the replys will come later as everyone is now looking up the data base to see if they have any E scores in there lines before replying to the posts........suckers

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by wolfin

i NOT see HD ED results in Wolfdog.org
and I SEE very problematic linie dogs in your kennel- dog without HD ED with HD E in yours linie.
sorry but Nebulosa have healtest linie and dogs, not You.
I wish have puppy from shes kennel but for You not, when i see big risik for bad HD and others problems.
yes this is me opinion but maybe when speak about others people first see who have self.

sorry i must dash of to another forum to start another scandel lots of love Pacino

[martiou07]

Solowolf, I do not need to consult the base of data to know on which line you work… to you do not be only, and I do not include/understand why stockbreeders work on this line, I do not think that is a good base for the development a race in construction like the wolfhound….

But I understand that you find an answer, normal, it acts of your work, you know self-criticism can be very use

[Nebulosa]

I was really waiting someone comment about the HD results of Oskar, even because somethings mey be explained, as probably much more officially C dogs will be used on Brazil, as its common.
Nobody nor even wonder why?
Lets put some points here, Oskar have 100º in each hips, it means that by european rules of evaluation he will be B, as any vet who read it can confirme.
For a male dog here receive A result, if must be REALLY good one, as the veterinarians have the will to avoid the overusing of a male, which is pretty common in imported dogs ( like Oskar) here, and that's why you will meet dogs that have their hips evaluate over the world as A, and received B or C in Brazil.
By the way its good, because only good dogs will be used on breeding, by other side its bad, as some good stud dogs was almost put out of reproduction because they had receive D in our results with 98º in the hips, which will be C in europe, that's why mainly the breed clubs lets the owners/breeder choice if they want send the Hip results for be evaluate in the origin country of the breed in question.

So far I sended the HD of Oskar for be evaluate by Siambieda in Poland, lets wait the official results by there, if be different I will think about put out this C or not, because even Oskar beging a nice dog with excelent character and very interessing line, I don't consider him an exemple of male for the breed, but his line for sure is important to us.
If he will be used again or not, will depend on the hips results of his puppies... evaluated by the brazilian comitee, so you can wait more C dogs in the males.

The part you forget to remember, is that both dogs have 0-0 in their elbows ( when only the 1 result here can put your dog non-molosser almost out of reproduction, as the vets LOVES this result even in healty dogs, like in displasy), as Jezebeth have A in the OFFICIAL BRAZILIAN RESULTS, so, she really have good hips.

You also foget to say, that of the 9 puppies who born in the J. z peronówki litter, 7 of then have been X rayed with HD A, that all the X rayed puppies of Jolly ( only fell of then didn't have as they don't reach the age or the owners don't need it) the worst result we can meet is B.
Also about the nice HD results of Baron and his decendents, so far I think I can use Jezebeth even with a male which is really HD: C.

But Solowolf, I don't know why did you concern to much about the breed health as you had mate dogs with no ED results at all, as Lynx-Legend van Rijneckerhof and Next Best Thing ---Pacino--- was used withou ANY KIND OF RESULTS, no mention that Brix Bis de Louba tar have no results at all also.
But you see, even it will not be such huge problem if they had comes from a healty line, which they don't.



You see, a breeder with small knowledge about genetic already knows, that those dogs can be good breeding animals if the breeder know how to use they and cover only dogs with line for excelent hips, so I ask you, what are you doing? What do you want with breeding, Increasing the HD problems? Or maybe, it happened because you don't mate your females with a nice male after study and choice his line, but with the one you have disponible and easiest as possible.

we have been removed from breeders listings and our flag also removed, from previous posts the uk breeders have been offended and now black listed by moderators on wolfdog.org.

And what do you want if you have no trusthfull breeding of CzW in your country? You can't guilty the webpage owners and moderators because they had the good sense of took out breeders that like you, make mixes with CzW.
Of course, when appear someone serious that at least breed with PURE dogs, this person will be on database independant of the country.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I can confirm the statement of Paula and add the statement of one of the German specialists in HD, who was one of the persons invented the HD-Xray systhem here and is member of the group working on genetic orthopedic disorders in dogs, he clearly said to me on asking for it that it can be absolutely sensible to use a dog with a C hip of a breed with a genetic small base AS LONG AS YOU TAKE CARE WHICH MATING PARTNER YOU USE AND AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A TIGHT SELECTION ON THE OFFSPRING.
I am sure that Paula will take care of this.

And I also fully agree with Paulas statement about the GB-breeding and will add another point: A breeder that never came further in meeting breeders and dogs than France, Netherlands and surrounding states, that never joined a Clubshow with a specialised judge out of a country of origin and a bonitation with the same should be very, very careful with his judgement about others and first look at his own breeding and doing.

All in all I think we should ignore a wannabe with very few true things to say.

Ina

[miguelcary17]

I would like to believe that all this argue is all about the improve of the race and not about yours “Selves” and yours belly buttons.
And that at the end of the day we all join together arroud the table drinking beer and wine with ours wolfs by our side

[Margo]

Originally Posted by solowolf

you rabbit on about what needs to be done for the good of the breed, give all info on line about health problems and all the tests we need to do before breeding, but then it seems o.k. if its a friend who breeds useing high hip scored animals, and it is a high score by breed standards, you people never cease to amaze me, there is no excuse for useing this dog in any breedings, so dont patronise me with any jumped up excuses's, i am sick of listening to a load of hypocrites on this forum, now go practice what you all preach and breed healthy dogs,

I really don't understand you...

1) There is nothing wrong and nothing new about using HD-C dogs. Expecially when the result comes from a very strict vet. And the HD-C dog is mated with veary healthy female.
If you like it or not the population of CzW is not big enoguh and in many cases we are using HD-C dogs to protect the gene pool. Of course it will be better to mate only HD-A dogs but in some cases we have to use also dogs with worser results.
Of couse the decision depends on the breeder. I personaly would use a HD-C dog comming from a very heathy line but I already decided several times NOT TO USE a HD-A dog (with HD-Aparents) comming from a line responsible for spread out hip displasia. So please see every case separatly because there are no easy answers.

2) It wonders me why exactly you are writing that OTHER breeders do not pay enough attention to the health. Sorry, but so far we have your litters:

- one litter: 3 generation with only 7 dogs checked of 14 ancestors. Results: 3 x HD-A, 1 x HD-B, 1 x HD-D, 1 x HD-E.
Inbreed done on Gar, Rep and Eta Pohostinstvo CS (HD-D)

- second litter: 3 generation with only 6 dogs checked of 14 ancestors.

- your new so advertised "wolfish arrival" : of 14 ancestors only 4 with clear hips (HD-A) and the dog is an inbreed on 5 dogs where 2 are not checked (in this case it is explicable because they are old dogs) but NONE of the others is HD-free!



Paula explained why she is doing her litter (PURE FACTS).
Are you ABLE to do the same and explain us your way of breeding. Because for 100% it is not a way of breeding which can be advertised to other breeders as one where the breeding of healthy dogs is the main goal...

[admin]

Originally Posted by solowolf

we have been removed from breeders listings and our flag also removed, from previous posts the uk breeders have been offended and now black listed by moderators on wolfdog.org.

NONE of the UK breeders have been offended. The steps were done because of missing responsibility of some breeders who we selling the puppies telling they are FULLY registered and FULLY recognized while CzW is not registered by KC till now. Simply said - we can not advertise puppies which are "non-breeds" for FCI.

If it is true and the breed will get recognition from KC the breeders who are KC-registered will return on the breeders list.

WITH ONE EXCEPTION: there will be NO ADVERTISING for breeders of any kind of mixes and nonbreeds with pedigrees.

We do not advertise here kennels:

- which mix and register Saarloos-Czechoslovakian Wolfdog mixes

- which use lines where appear the offsprings of the mix
Dark (priv. Locchi) who was registered by ENCI with the false parents names. And it doesn't matter in ANY GENERATION the dog will appear

- which own and use for breeding the nonbreeds know as Mutaras (Ave Lupo ---Mutara--, Audrey Lupo ---Mutara--- and Ares Lupo ---Mutara---)

- which own and/or use for breeding any nonbreeds and their offsprings coming from the S- Passo del Lupo litter: Selly Passo del Lupo, Sakim Passo del Lupo, Sam Passo del Lupo, Sangria Passo del Lupo, Sanika Passo del Lupo and Seiko Passo del Lupo.


REASON: There is no advertising and soon the future puppy buyers will be warned not to buy any puppies from this lines and kennels because the litter S-Passo del Lupo, Dark and Mutaras were officially BANNED by the Slovak Club and recognized as NON-BREEDS!!!!
Because it is not possible to count with the national kennel clubs and for example ENCI seems nothing wrong in registering mutts as purebreed dogs it was needed to make additional steps and protect the CzW genepool.

So NONE of these dogs and NONE of their offsprings will EVER be registered by the breed club in Slovakia (and also Czech breed club) and it will be not ALLOWED to import or breed ANY offsprings of these dogs EVEN if the nonbredd will be in 20-, 30 or 100- generation.

We will also not advertise ANY kennels which mix Czechoslovakian Wolfdog with other breeds or wolves and advertise the puppies as "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs" which is so common in UK...

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by Admin

- which use lines where appear the offsprings of the mix
Dark (priv. Locchi) who was registered by ENCI with the false parents names. And it doesn't matter in ANY GENERATION the dog will appear

- which own and use for breeding the nonbreeds know as Mutaras (Ave Lupo ---Mutara--, Audrey Lupo ---Mutara--- and Ares Lupo ---Mutara---)

- which own and/or use for breeding any nonbreeds and their offsprings coming from the S- Passo del Lupo litter: Selly Passo del Lupo, Sakim Passo del Lupo, Sam Passo del Lupo, Sangria Passo del Lupo, Sanika Passo del Lupo and Seiko Passo del Lupo.


REASON: There is no advertising and soon the future puppy buyers will be warned not to buy any puppies from this lines and kennels because the litter S-Passo del Lupo, Dark and Mutaras were officially BANNED by the Slovak Club and recognized as NON-BREEDS!!!

Just a small question on the above, way are this dogs in the CsV database at all ??? when they are not of the CsV breed ???

Very best regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I think it is good that you can find them there. They have been used for breeding or may be in future. As long as they are in the database it is possible to find out the origin of their offspring.

[Hanka]

Przemek (or Margo), you forgot Fenrir Foresta Incantata.

[GalomyOak]

So...a quick question...not to cause any problems, or start arguments...only from my ignorance...and "education"

I am aware of the PDL S-Litter and Mutara project...I was not aware of Dark...is this dog also a mix, or were there only some problems with his registration?

I'm only curious because I saw this litter advertised in which Dark appears in the pedigree:
http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/litters/1051.html

When the Slovakian club doesn't recognize a pedigree, does that mean the FCI won't register the dog/litter, or can this line be registered in other countries?