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Old 04-01-2010, 11:04   #1
jasmine
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Default HD evaluation according the FCI rules

Oh, about that.
Do you mean Héro Oskar Dór, a dog wich get C with 100º and 98º degree in norberg angles as worst result, had his hips evaluate for at least 3 vets in 2 different countries?

Ahhhhh 98 degree and C ???????
Strange.....what were the 3 countries? Because 100/98 must be C/D in everywhere!!!!!!!
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Old 05-01-2010, 11:10   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
D is about 95º including in hungary, but the difference is that in your country a 96º dog still will be C, maybe it explaines why we get such bad results when works with some dogs coming of your breeding or used by you.
His HD where evaluate by 3 vets in different countries, Brazil and Poland, maybe I should send it to Uruguay for Margarita Duran for get the same or even better results and nobody be able to contest it.
I would like to remind you, great expert, that the results are not only gave by norberg angles, but also looking the situation of the cartilage wich reflects clearly in the bones.

No Paula, 95 degrees couldn't be C in Hungary. According to the FCI limits, when the Norberg angle is under 100 , it could be just D!
Please look after it! I have found just hungarian descriptions about it, but I try to find some English version for you.
And of course the HD results is depending on many other things, shape of the join, femur etc.........
The hd results of my dogs are not worth than others....all of them have official certifications, X-rays with identification numbers.
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:08   #3
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According the FCI rules there are about 18 different aspects which influence the HD-end-result. And Norberg is only one of them. In the case of Norberg angle is should be
- for HD-A: 105° or more
- for HD-B: about 105° or less
- for HD-C: about 100°
- for HD-D: more than 90°
- for HD-E: less than 90°

It is just reference as not only Norberg angle have an influence. Anyway a dog with good "looking" hips but with Norberg 98° and better can get HD-C according the FCI rules (in Germany it would be HD-C2)....
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Old 05-01-2010, 17:39   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebulosa
D is about 95º including in hungary, but the difference is that in your country a 96º dog still will be C, maybe it explaines why we get such bad results when works with some dogs coming of your breeding or used by you.
His HD where evaluate by 3 vets in different countries, Brazil and Poland, maybe I should send it to Uruguay for Margarita Duran for get the same or even better results and nobody be able to contest it.
I would like to remind you, great expert, that the results are not only gave by norberg angles, but also looking the situation of the cartilage wich reflects clearly in the bones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmine
No Paula, 95 degrees couldn't be C in Hungary. According to the FCI limits, when the Norberg angle is under 100 , it could be just D!
I didn't said the angle of 95 would be C in Hungary, because its the limit for you gave a dog D, the main question is that in hungary a dog with 96º will be also C, even if a 96 for us is considerate "about 95º" and the dog would receive D anyway even with perfect bones.

For you have an idea, my Bulldog received E with norberg angle 96º, something which would never happen in Hungary as look like hungarians results dont pay much attention to the bones format.
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Old 05-01-2010, 19:17   #5
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?????
we have a complex examination,not just measuring
(but I wrote it several times,moreover your breeder has some certification from me)
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Old 05-01-2010, 22:42   #6
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Normally the certifications don't have the X rays, and even when it have its too small, so the certifications will make no diference, as the diference is in the evaluation of the X-ray and the attention to some small things.
I found something that can show a little bit of the problem in internet even if its really dificult to show, principaly when the majority dont work or are involved with veterinary medicine.

Like, for have A we must have perfect femoral head, congruent and the most equal possible in both sides...

Its a hungarian x ray of viszla with A results by the webpage of the UK club.
Here the x ray, its big

And an A dog used as exemple, its only for see one A the femoral head and about how it should look like, of course we have some differences dog by dog, breed by breed.
The femoral head format is something that must be also evaluate.

But its only a photo we cant judge well by it, but even looking here you already can see the diferences and see that something isn't well.
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Old 05-01-2010, 23:19   #7
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Sorry, but the viszla-x-ray shouldn´t be used as an example because 1. it is a x-ray of bad quality and 2. the placement of the hip and legs isn´t 100% correct and the knees are missing on the x-ray. It is possible that this dog will be judged correctly as A when it is placed in a proper way.

And hips of different breeds look different what is the reason why the German HD-judges don´t judge all breeds in general, all dogs of one breed are judged by one or two of the experts.

Ina
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Old 05-01-2010, 23:34   #8
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This X ray shoudn't be used, but it was as official.
For what I saw I really dont believe it will be A even in right position.
I had a nice collection of "different hips results in imported addult dogs" when I have free time I will try to pick it back.
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Old 06-01-2010, 18:58   #9
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Quote:
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This X ray shoudn't be used, but it was as official.
For what I saw I really dont believe it will be A even in right position.
I had a nice collection of "different hips results in imported addult dogs" when I have free time I will try to pick it back.

Than put the hungarian official certification about the vizsla x-ray as well, not just a bad quality x-ray.....because from this we don't know what was the results......

Anyway: it is surely not official. The official x-ray must use tatoo number or chipnumber of the dog, LEFT downcorner of the x-ray, and nothing else. It is a rule.

And when some owners won't bring their dogs to Poland for better results, than you could critisize of our protocol. But just than!!!!!!
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Old 06-01-2010, 20:07   #10
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The knees are missing the X rays as probably the datas of the dog also because it was clearly cropped out with photoshop, they wanted show the hips not whole X ray.
Its not me who're saying it was exemple of hungrian X ray, but the proper club
But its only one internet exemple of the problem, wich we can proof day by day with the imported dogs.

And no, I didn't had sended the X rays of my dog to poland for better results, if I would do this I would not sent him to the vet I sended as I would not sent it to poland.

But as you make question to know why do I sent it to Poland, at the time of sent back the results our club mistaken the breed at the cadastre (well, we had no CzW before) and sended it to GSD club instead of my house, it took about 6 months for I be able to know after where are my results, I really didn't had time for more breed cadastre mistake in the sent back, so I decide to make the results in both countries.
As I knew in Poland have one very reliable vet I solve to sent his X rays for him.

But dont worrie, I'm very different of you as I really care for the hips of my dogs and its selection, maybe I will sent the next results of my dogs to OFFA as well, as "the same results in 2 different countries dont count", lets put the tird one.

But you should really see about make the results also in other place to confirm the hungarian results of your dogs, as it seems your breeding have problems with hips, principally when the dogs get X rayed outside your country, as you should respect a little bit what the results say, use both C dogs in breeding is not wise nor what we can call selection.
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Old 07-01-2010, 07:16   #11
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A little of topic:
Everybody can send official foto to our czech club doctors, for czech HD, ED results. We have a few doctors for it, but usually owners use only two.
The doctors must make protocol A4 format with all measuring.
If somebody want do it, he can contact me for more info.
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:57   #12
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I think you can do this in every country. The German expert is:
Dr. Wurster, Wolframstr. 13, 86161 Augsburg. The evaluation costs 25 Euros as far as I remember.
But it has to be a correct picture or it will not be evaluated. That means position as straight as possible, legs streched and turned inside as far as possible, both knees have to be on the picture and your vet has to sign that the dog has been identified by him and has been sedated till full muscle relaxation.
It would be interesting to compare the judgements.
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Old 07-01-2010, 09:07   #13
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Of course, correct foto.
It is only offer- to let search dog in country of origin. For some owners it is "interest" and they use this offer. And I help them to arrange it.
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Old 07-01-2010, 09:47   #14
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Yes I did understand that. But after there was so much of discussion if Polish or Czech results are right and if Czech results are the strictes ones, I would find it more interesting to get them compared in a "neutral" country.

Ina
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Old 07-01-2010, 09:49   #15
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Ok, it depends on every owner......
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