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Old 11-11-2010, 01:45   #1
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Default 4 wolves used in breed development

Is there any information on Sarik, Brita, Argo and Lejdy? I'm curious about how and why they were selected and where they were selected from (zoo? private sanctuary?)

And I'd like to know if it is common for wolf to dog pairings to have low fertility especially if it is a male wolf to female dog. For example, in the two litters from Sarik, there was only 1 puppy produced each. Only 2 puppies were produced from Argo's single litter, and only 1 puppy from Lejdy's single litter. The only exception is Brita who had 2 sizable litters.

Was there any reason for the selection of these 4 specific wolves, or was it "just because" they were Eurasian wolves?
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:28   #2
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Really interesting questions
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Old 12-11-2010, 00:15   #3
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And I'd like to know if it is common for wolf to dog pairings to have low fertility especially if it is a male wolf to female dog. For example, in the two litters from Sarik, there was only 1 puppy produced each. Only 2 puppies were produced from Argo's single litter, and only 1 puppy from Lejdy's single litter. The only exception is Brita who had 2 sizable litters.

I assume that the actual litter sizes were much larger than officially documented. Especially in those days it was common practice to select rigorously; keeping the best puppy(s) and "simply" euthanise the rest.For example those who proved to be too shy. I'm not sure about it, but I do think it is likely that's the reason why we only see one or two F1 pups with some of the wolf crossings. Also just because a wolf crossing usually results in large litters (fresh blood). I seem to recall having read about it here on the forum or perhaps in the book by Karl Hartl. Possibly some forum users from the countries of origin can tell more about it?

Last edited by buidelwolf; 12-11-2010 at 01:16.
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Old 12-11-2010, 00:24   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buidelwolf View Post
I assume that the actual litter sizes were much larger than officially documented. Especially in those days it was common practice to select rigorously; keeping the best puppy(s) and "simply" euthanise the rest.
Hmmm.. I wonder if this is the case. It would make sense, certainly. If anyone has read Hartl's book, does it elaborate on this?
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Old 12-11-2010, 00:37   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buidelwolf View Post
I assume that the actual litter sizes were much larger than officially documented. Especially in those days it was common practice to select rigorously; keeping the best puppy(s) and "simply" euthanise the rest.For example those who proved to be too shy. I'm not sure about it, but I do think it is likely that's the reason why we only see one or two F1 pups with the wolf crossings.
I don't think so... Because in 1958 Brita gave birth to 5 pups but only Betsy and Bessy has been reproduce. And in 1960 same thing, 5 pups but only Bikar has been reproduce...
In the Book they don't really talk about it... We only know that some dogs had better capacity to be train and were more predisposed for the project of a new breed...
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Old 12-11-2010, 01:07   #6
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The military did the first character-test with 8 weeks and every pup not fulfilling them was put down. This continued till adult age.
Also that Major Rosik writes that they rescued some few dogs after the military decided not to use them any longer means exacly this, they were rescued.

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Old 12-11-2010, 01:09   #7
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Thanks Ina, I knew you should know. It confirms almost certainly the theory I had. Do you also have information about the other questions?

Last edited by buidelwolf; 12-11-2010 at 01:24.
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Old 12-11-2010, 01:55   #8
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No not really, to be honest I never bothered. But having raised wolves and having talked about this during the Mutara times and before with Erik Zimen who did the same bilogical experiment with poodles and dogs, I think they took these wolves because they simply have been available for them .It is not that easy to mate a wolf and a dog that have not been raised together as it is with two dogs. So I think, like with the Mutara´s parents, they just happend to be there in this combinations.

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Old 12-11-2010, 02:37   #9
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Thank you Ina
But... Did its mean all the first hybrides (F1) from Brita who had no Owner (like this one http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1287) as been finally put down???
It's really an interesting thread
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:14   #10
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In army was very strict selection, as Ina wrote here. Only a few best hybrids with best working character was used for next breeding. Other dogs............
It can be problem for people, which will want now create new bloodline. In past was used from 1 litter maybe 2 pups. But now if we will have litter of hybrids, every owner will want use his own hybrid for next breeding. Bad dogs too. It is nothing good for breed.
For breed is bad situation now, when are in breeding used almost all wolfdogs with 4 legs. Nobody select for character. It is very bad especially for our breed with wolf´s blood. cs. wolfdog was created as working breed. And now- look at population.....
So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:31   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.
I fully agree with Hanka, though neither am I involved in breeding, nor intend to be.

Having read about training methods and selection procedures in PS Kennel I cannot imagine it feasible to reconstruct "military approach" at present and in civilian conditions.
Who today:
1. would provide funding of a few hrs daily standardized training for pups and dogs in one place for several years? (including fees for scientists, costs of health testing, wages for trainers and for dog handlers/leaders from the same area willing to work with dogs most of their time?)

2. would take decisions to eutanize pups/hybrids that would not pass exteremely tough working/tracking tests and... carry out these decisions ? BTW how should the character vs. appearance vs. health dilemma be solved? In PS dog appearance was not taken under consideration at all, but I'm afraid it would be the main selection criterion today

3. would agree to have his/her beautiful and loveable dog (hybrid?) eutanized (or even just sterelized), only because he/she would not have passed the working/tracking/trailing tests? etc. etc.

4. If having a very detailed breed standard available, the csv community among themselves cannot agree about simple bonitation standards , and the judges conduct them not always fairly (), who would be able to decide which dogs/hybrids should remain in breeding and which should be withdrawn? Is there an internationally charismatic character among CSV judges/lovers/breedres (?) approved by Slovakian Breeding Commitee (responsilble for the breed in FCI), who could be granted the role of "CSV God"? Would all respect and trust him (them?) enough as not to question his/their decisions? Mutaragate should be a clear warning how an "amateur" experiment may end in not well prepared, widely approved and carried out fairly, openly and under scientific supervision.

5. And last but not least: adding fresh wolf blood into the CSV breed would mean that in some countries csv would be authomatically banned and in some others would have less chance to be legalized. Can the breed afford such step at the present stage of development?
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Old 12-11-2010, 11:19   #12
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I fully agree with both Hanka and of course Rona.
In comparison, much more dogs were killed rather than used for breeding and establishing the "new breed".
Which nowadays ought to make it impossible for ethical reasons, bringing in"new wolf blood".
Living with European wolves and knowing quite a few F1-crosses, I honestly can say you don't really want these animals as pets once they're adult...
Unfortunately there are a few psychos around who want exactly this.
But that's another story...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rona View Post


5. And last but not least: adding fresh wolf blood into the CSV breed would mean that in some countries csv would be authomatically banned and in some others would have less chance to be legalized. Can the breed afford such step at the present stage of development?
Rona, there is already fresh wolf blood added into the CSV breed in recent years.
And it continues!
And I don't speak of the "Mutaras" or only one mix or litter.
They have normal FCI pedigrees though false parents or at least fathers named.
Have a look in the database or litters.

Cheers,
Michael
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Old 12-11-2010, 11:21   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
For breed is bad situation now, when are in breeding used almost all wolfdogs with 4 legs. Nobody select for character. It is very bad especially for our breed with wolf´s blood. cs. wolfdog was created as working breed. And now- look at population.....
So I think some new experiments without selection is nonsens.
It is unfortunately true ....
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:37   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
Living with European wolves and knowing quite a few F1-crosses, I honestly can say you don't really want these animals as pets once they're adult...
This was exactly Hanka's and my point! Lack of tough selection in the "exeperiment" would ruin the breed character development. CSV are manageable dogs due to the fact that so many of their kins were exterminated. We owe the breed, as it is today, to enormous sufferings of dogs and people! When planning litters every decent breeder should bear in mind he/she is in the first place a 'breed warden'; not only a "producer of nice puppies" or a pup trader!

I sometimes feel it's a pity there is no selection for good, ethical breeders

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
Rona, there is already fresh wolf blood added into the CSV breed in recent years.(...)
They have normal FCI pedigrees though false parents or at least fathers named.
Have a look in the database or litters.
I know, but this is just cheating! Owners, who happen to buy hybrid instead of CSVs pups would probably have problems if they wanted to keep them indoors, but this only means they were careless or naive when choosing a kennel and litter.

What I meant was an official, but badly prepared, carelessly organized and irresponsibly carried out "wolfblood insertion" into the breed. Which would probably be the case without very solid funding, broad international coorperation, scientific and veterinary support, contingency plans if something went wrong, shelters for hybrids excluded from breeding and ... masses of trust and goodwill from all interested. The last aspect being probably most difficult of them all.
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Old 12-11-2010, 17:14   #15
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Just a few points -

At least to my knowledge, 'culling' of breeding stock today doesn't always have to equate to the older use of euthanasia. Rather, the dog is simply neutered/spayed and 'removed' that way from genetic contributions. 'Regular' breeders today use sterilization as a form of culling.

This thread was not meant to say that there should be new wolf blood, and given the replies here, I totally agree that it would make recognition or further acceptance difficult if not impossible. And that there wouldn't be an ethical way to go about this nowadays, not that I agree it was ethical 'back then', either.

But if necessary, the inclusion of new blood doesn't have to come through neither wolf nor German Shepherd Dog.
There have been back-cross projects in Dalmatians and Boxers alike that utilized breeds not originally linked to their foundation, including Pointers (for the Dalmatian project to 'solve' the uric acid problem) and Corgis (in the Boxer backcross natural bob-tail project by geneticist Dr Bruce Cattanach). Dr. Cattanach's Boxers are now KC/FCI registrable and within about 5 generations you (and KC judges of breed) could not tell either temperamentally nor physically that his Boxers were 'mixed', so to speak.

Genetics is awfully fascinating, isn't it?

But now I am off-topic. Thank you for all the replies on the original wolves!
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Old 12-11-2010, 18:52   #16
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The breed czechoslovakian wolfdog is a breed between carpathian wolf and german shepard. Why everybody is talking to cross again with a wolf and why nobody thinks to cross with a german shepard? A nice eastern grey line. None aggressiv, nice to people with best working abilitys? In second generation again breed with a csw, nobody will see it.

By selectiv breeding and using a "good" open friendly wolf with a real good and friendly csw female with best working abilities the most pups could be used. But by the way, who of the breeders is breeding after working abilities today? I do not know one. There is a hand full who seems to have "working" dogs. But 5 from 100 or better 500.

So it is academical this question, if a F 1 is able to work. If you will breed the F 1 with a good working dog, you will get a workable F 2. I know some good working F 1 and F 2. There is no problem, but of course you have to select the wolf!

And it is right you can not take a wolf and say go and mate the dog. Wolves are like we are, they first have to "marry" and they stay all their lifes together. So the easiest way is to raise up a wolf cub with a csw pup. And than you wait 3 years.

Even the german shepard was founded like this, crossing in 4 wolves. I got the old pedigrees showing it. And in the old version from the book The german shepard from 1921, 6. edition, the breed founder Max von Stephanitz is writing about this.

No pup must put to death because he maybe would not like to work. There are so many proves in interent with videos that people do live with F 1, F 2 high content in their houses without any problems. Most of the csw make more problems than any F 1 high content. Because the german shepard makes them hyperactiv and is the problem!

If you know how to live with wolves and F 1 there is no problem. But you should never hit your animals, like some "specialist" do. One is writing here. So no wonder that he has bad experience. It is very simple "make the difference". And of course there are shy and timid wolves, but friendly and open ones too.

And of course, Rona, the reality is that the people want real wolfdogs and they do not care for wrong papers! And of course they know what they got!

Christian
www.wolfdogs-siouxtala.de You can read on my website about the different kind of wolves under the page wolves! Wolves have a different character, like you and me, and every dog. And breeding with wolves of course you do not have to take wild ones, but in captivity raised ones, who have proven that they are able to work.

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Old 12-11-2010, 19:23   #17
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That is not the point. The csw is a breed which started with taking a wolf! And they did take a wolf who was not trained. They took one from zoo! And the first german shepard was not able to breed the first wolvin! So they took a real strong character and of coure he was very aggressiv! He did not care that Brita did not want to breed. Maybe that is the reason why most of the csw are kind of aggressiv - old genetics. In france is in the moment a big problem with aggressiv csw. There are a lot of them in shelters! The breeders did not expalin the people what kind of dogs they are.

You can absolutely not compare to train a wolf to train a tiger! The founder of the german shepard called a wolf a wild dog! When he is writing about wolves, he is always writing about wild dogs!

These wolves you see in the pic are walked with visitors. Of course they are young in the moment. We will see how it develops. But here we are talking not that people should buy a wolf as a dog, but if it is impossible to bring in fresh blood, before this nature breed will go down because of illness.

Yes, you are right, that was not the topic, but I did not start writing about this but answering to.
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Old 12-11-2010, 19:29   #18
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Thanks for your reply. Is there any substantiation behind your claims that:

- The wolves were from zoos
- That the GSD mated with Brita was very [sic] "aggressiv"
- That vonStephanitz meant "wolf" when he said "wild dog"

A friend has a reprint of The German Shepherd (1923) and says nothing of the sort was discussed regarding vonStephanitz.

And in theory I agree with you, because I think there's a possibility of a workable backcross project should the need arise. I just don't think it needs to be done with either wolf nor GSD.
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Old 12-11-2010, 19:36   #19
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Thank you for your post Hanka It’s true now I don’t think any breeders can do the same works as the army does for the CsV. No one have the time, the budget and probably the capacity to do honestly the same woks...
I don’t think it’s a necessary to introduce new wolf blood in the CsV... Just try to make the right choice when you planned a litter... Like Rona I don’t think follow the “Bonitation Standard” is a good long term solution. For example I know my girls have a too long tail... But... She is a good behaviour dog with a really healthy condition She is for me a perfect dog
Is it true that some breeders cheat about their pups and introduces new wolf blood in there kennel... I can imagine why, but I don’t understand, I saw a lot of “!!!MIX!!!” in the database... So ok it’s a fact they have wolf like parents, but some are really unknown and report as true CsV? And those hybrids are for sell? I really don’t understand why. I can only imagine this Mix for their proper use in there kennel but not for sell...
On the French part of the forum there is a thread about “American Wolfdog” and it’s really amazing because people doesn’t really understand that is not a real Breed of dogs like the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog or the Saarloos... So it’s really easy to cheat by pretending our hybrids are a foreigner breed or something like that... So why claim they are true CsV?
Anyway, it’s really interesting
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Old 12-11-2010, 20:19   #20
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Yes, we need not new wolf blood. We always can choose good parents of next litters. Only is necessary to look at pedigries. And some 1 Rep z PS in 10. generation is not problem. Yes, he is there. And what????
More important is to make lagrer and larger genopool of breed. Biggest problem is, in the World are not really working clubs for czw. I don´t mean clubs of "friends of breed", but I mean really working club with some leader who knows something about genetic. Important is to use for female different male for every litter and a little "lead" breeding in every country. But it does not exist, what is a pitty and bad for breed.
Don´t look at exterier of dogs and don´t choose males for females only for "wolfish type". Important is to choose males, because they have this or this blood. But when I today look at "planned litters" here on wolfdog I see, much breeders always choose males only for exterier.
But it is always speaking about the same. It is a pitty, countries of origin can´t give strict conditions for breeding of wolfdogs in the World. A pitty for breed.
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