Height and weight

[WolfmanUSA]

Thanks for all of the insight . I appologize that it took so long for me to respond. Another question I have is; how large do CZW become? I am having trouble converting the measurements that I've seen to pounds and inches.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by WolfmanUSA

Another question I have is; how large do CZW become?

Males - average: 68-69 cm and 40-45 kg
Females - average: 64-65 cm and 30 kg.

[WolfmanUSA]

So, does 69 cm and 45 kg translate to 26.5 in. and 99 lbs. or something close to that? Again, I am trying to translate the measurements into inches and pounds.

Thanks again for all of the replies!

[z Peronówki]

Males - average: 26.8-27.2 in. and 88.2-99 lbs.
Females - average: 25.2-25.6 in. and 66 lbs.

[dog_cooker]

Originally Posted by Margo

Males - average: 26.8-27.2 in. and 88.2-99 lbs.
Females - average: 25.2-25.6 in. and 66 lbs.

Hello i was just wondering why the breed standard weight is lower than what you wrote.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by dog_cooker

Hello i was just wondering why the breed standard weight is lower than what you wrote.

In ther breed standard is written only the MINIMUM weight. I wrote about the average weight...

[dog_cooker]

oh ok thank you for explaining

[massimo]

Hi all.
there is an interesting 3d on italian forum for which maybe it could be nice to read from "non italian" owners experts.
It's about the height of dogs.
In brief: there is no maximium height for CSW.
-Was there a maximum in the past (it seems from some replies No)
-Shouldn't there be a limit in order to avoid getting "camel"-like dogs?

Some people a replying that the important thing is to respect proportions indicated in standard (height 55%, length 105% etc), without limitations of height.
Others (I am amongst them) say that the basic thing to respect is that a dog should look harmonic, elegant, but at the same time strong.
This shouldn't be limited in height because you can get such dog (for males) at 64cm just as at 73cm.
why is maybe the "best hight" in between these values(68 for example)? maybe because it's easier to maintain proportions on an average hight dog without the risk of having a heavy head with loose lip and big chest (too high) or having short legs and weak bones (too short).

-Further question: if you manage to find a strong, tall, well proportioned, with a light movement male of 72cm, would you rather use him in breeding or a 65cm very light male with a wonderful looking wolfish head although not so elegant?
OR would you simply use them both in the same way according to the "right" female?

What do you think??

massimo

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo,
it is too long answer for my bad english ) . So, I write you my personal meaning.
65,5cm high dog is good. 73cm high harmonic dog is good too. Is not different in using them for females. But: how much people want puppies from 65,5cm high dog? More people want puppies from higher dogs. For 64cm high females are good both males 66cm and 73cm high too.
So, high is not important.
But I want know more opinions from other breeders.

[massimo]

But I'm also interested to know from you and others if it is "less" advisable to allow the average hight of CSW increase or not.
Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?
From your reply it's clear that maybe for people the second is preferrable.
I suppose we both have a "similar" preferance, considering the males we own...


But I'm curious to know what others think, czechs AND slovaks too....
Massimo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by massimo

But I'm also interested to know from you and others if it is "less" advisable to allow the average hight of CSW increase or not.
Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?
From your reply it's clear that maybe for people the second is preferrable.

The breed standart says in short terms that the CSW should look like a European wolf. A male European wolf can have a high of over 70 cm. So for me it is elegant/powerful/wolfish.
I don´t mind if a male is small or tall as long as he is of that type. I don´t have to be afraid that the puppies will be too small because I know that even my smallest bitch allways has puppies of good height. Therefor I only look for a male that fits my female. And I wouldn´t take a male with too short legs, that is too heavy build, with an untypical head, untypical movements, a bad back line or a bad character.
The experience in other breeds show that you get problems if you breed for very tall dogs or heavy dogs. I think we don´t need to have a heightlimit as long as we don´t prefer dogs just because they are tall and nothing else.

Ina

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo,
you write two posiibility:
Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?
But no exist theese two possibilty, only. I know much combination of this . Smaller can be elegant and compact can be powerfull
Of course, nobody prefer high, heavy dogs. But high elegant dog with beautifull movement......
And my opinions are: from normal high dogs 62 and 68 cm parents can be very small puppies. It is nature.
In the Italy is breeding very easy. You have only one stanpoint: beauty. You can choose parents only from beauty or high (?).Where is character of working breed? Where is health? And have you got certitude-the parents in pedigree are parents really? I think, in some kennels-NO. A lot of "breeders" use dogs without RTG, without bonitation. It is bigger problem than high. Sorry, it is simplificatied view from Czech to Italin . Yes, you have much beautiful dogs, but without breed value for BREEDING.Not for "breeding". Because we need for breeding dogs with RTG results, with bonitations, not only products from some "wolfdogs". How much breeders openly tell about it in Italy?
Oh Massimo, I see I don´t write about high ) Sorry.
Yes, high, elegant wolfdog with very good and strong character and with longer coat and HIP Dysplasia free - it is my ideal. I want have full garden of theese wolfdogs. But it is dream, only.

[mijke]

Originally Posted by massimo

Should breeders tend to select more compact/smaller/wolfish csws?
Should breeders tend to select more tall/elegant/powerful csws?
From your reply it's clear that maybe for people the second is preferrable.

For me is not only the exterior important
A stable dog with a good and strong character is for me also very importent! (unfortunaly there are also frightened and scary CsW's in some country's)

When I am looking for stud dogs, yes I first look for exterior of a male that fits with my female
And for a CsW is for me important: wolfish/powerfull/elegant/strong but light moving

When I have made a first selection I look to HD results, bonitation (if they have) and wright's coefficient

I also visit several males (long time before a female is in heat )to get an impression how they are and what their character is.

So only the height of a stud dog is less important for me

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by mijke

When I am looking for stud dogs, yes I first look for exterior of a male that fits with my female
And for a CsW is for me important: wolfish/powerfull/elegant/strong but light moving

When I have made a first selection I look to HD results, bonitation (if they have) and wright's coefficient

I also visit several males (long time before a female is in heat )to get an impression how they are and what their character is.

So only the height of a stud dog is less important for me

We mostly do the same. What I really care about too is the HDresults of the dogs offspring if there already is some, not only his own results.

Ina

[massimo]

Originally Posted by mijke

For me is not only the exterior important
When I have made a first selection I look to HD results, bonitation (if they have) and wright's coefficient
So only the height of a stud dog is less important for me

Hi mijke,
thanks for your comments but maybe I wasn't clear enough and brought you slightly out of thread.
I didn't ask "what do you look for as most important in a CSW".
I personally have a special feeling for a male I know personally which is maybe the most wolfish CSW around...BUT because of his character i wouldn't ever want one of his sons...
For me health and Character are MORE important that looks, no doubt.
I was concentrating on "large/tall" or "small/short".
However you mentioned something for me very important:

And for a CsW is for me important: wolfish/powerfull/elegant/strong but light moving

LIGHT MOVING
isn't it so difficult to find "large" csw but LIGHT MOVING??
Perfect proportions allow a dog to have light movement, just like wolves. If you ever saw wolves in real life or on documentaries, they seem to float on the ground, swiftly and magically, and prey can't even detect them from very near.
A dog with a large chest or too long body looks clumsy when he walks and is far away from being elegant...
massimo

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

And my opinions are: from normal high dogs 62 and 68 cm parents can be very small puppies. It is nature.
In the Italy is breeding very easy. You have only one stanpoint: beauty. You can choose parents only from beauty or high (?).Where is character of working breed? Where is health? And have you got certitude-the parents in pedigree are parents really? I think, in some kennels-NO. A lot of "breeders" use dogs without RTG, without bonitation. It is bigger problem than high. Sorry, it is simplificatied view from Czech to Italin . Yes, you have much beautiful dogs, but without breed value for BREEDING.Not for "breeding". Because we need for breeding dogs with RTG results, with bonitations, not only products from some "wolfdogs". How much breeders openly tell about it in Italy?

First of all Hanka I really thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge with us.
it's not so common for a person like you to write so openly and freely on internet.
In Italian forum, in those "rare" cases when people are not fighting like "chicken"... ....sometimes some threads are interesting and we have the luck to read comments from interesting/experienced breeders like Sarka Matrasova (ariminnum) or Andrea Pecharova (Foresta Incantata).
However the argument you mention, although not really on thread, is really interesting and deserves a small comment.
I am new in the wolfdog world and surely have less experience than you , but i'm lucky to live in the country with the most number of wolfdogs and I see so many of them in shows, meetings, training camps, bonitations etc.
I agree with you that in Italy there is no limit, no power from breeding committe as in Cz or Sk and therefore some dogs which should NEVER mate do it and nobody can stop owners from making puppies.
I personally would really like it if it was compulsary to make bonitation, I even would never give a dog a pedigree if he doesn't have bonitation/morphological selection.
But I wouldn't say A lot of "breeders" use dogs without RTG, without bonitation.
The first bonitation made in italy was in 2003 and our club has become officialy recognised only since 2 and a half years
Since then a lot of improvement has been made in italy, already 6 bonitations have been made.
Of course it is not controlled and we still have breeders mating brothers and sisters regardless of the side effects, but a lot of information is running and the "most important" breeders are ever more pushing in the right direction.
I do not agree with you when you say in italy most breeders look at beauty disregarding health and character.
It is really difficult or almost impossible to find a breeder which mates wolfdogs with HDC in Italy. The most used studs are generally all bonitated.
Characters are improving really a lot and I rarely see in shows dogs with tails under their stomach.
Our club is starting to organize training meetings and exams.
We are still not at the CZ level of course but improvement is visible.
It's true, a breeding comittee allows a certain level of control, but the possibility however to mate "wrong" dogs always exists!
It mainly depends on the consciousness of the breeder...but it also can happen in CZ or in SK!
If the owner of a dog measures his own csw during bonitation and "casually" it is just 0,5cm above minimum....
A very colleric or shy dog can be "trained" to pass bonitation....hoping in those 2-3 minutes of "apparent" calmness...
A dog with more than one displasic brother or sisters and with "doubtful" xrays can be allowed to mate....
I've personally seen more than one bonitation in CZ and SK, and the character test in one occasion was COMPLETELY different from the other in terms of power put by the figurante...
Another thing that surprises me is that owners of males from CZ or SK, with such strict breeding rules, but allow their dog to cover bitches in different countries without bonitation...isn't that a nonsense?

And have you got certitude-the parents in pedigree are parents really?

This can happen everyware there are unhonest people...Luckily there is the possibility to do the Paternity Test!!!

massimo

[Nebulosa]

Hi at all!
Massimo, what I see, the Italians breeders is flowers if you compare with the french breeders, that more seems a childrens fight for saw who have the best toy, you can see some kid atitudes comes from french breeders in relaction at others breeders of the same countrie, if you read the french forum will see till breeders say that will "broken the face" of the other breeder, this is alone one little exemple for show the point that have arrive.
Still in the french you can see one breeder say that make one improvement of the breed in the country breeding females that arrive at 72cm high. the problem is that this breeders forgoth the wolfish appearence and have make Tervuerens with the CzW pedigree.

I think that not have moctive for breeding for up the high of the breed, why move in winner team!?

Your cannot forgoth that CzWs aren't Borzois , they are working "enduraced" dogs, up the high of the breed in my opinion is alone for have more problems with the displasy and others problems, one much high dog at little will lost the agility, and this alone will open the eyes for "breeders" that alone see the appearence.

About the stud dogs of the origine country that mating eith out-country females non-bonitated, I tink that this will depend on what country and what breeder you talk, still not exist one country with the excuse for have dogs non bonitated used in the breeding because all is in the europe, at my view point, isn't longer for the breeders come one time per year in the origine country bonitate the breeding dogs and pupies, and other, they go for the origine country for buy pupies, isn't different the way for comes and bonitate the dog, why they not make this? fear the result of one super-show-winner receive a P14 in bonitation because of the temperamento non-sociabilizated??
I tink that this can be one trying for help to improve the breed in out-countries well, I know that I dream so much .

Well, is my opinion, I alone saw ( better, reading) all this from far

Paula

[Hanka]

Hello Massimo, I love you , we must speak together in the future
Yes, good breeding is not easy, is somebody want do it GOOD.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Hello Massimo, I love you , we must speak together in the future
Yes, good breeding is not easy, is somebody want do it GOOD.

then love is returned surely!!
and in particular I like czech women!

Ok, here is an official and public appointment: when MONA/ALI puppies are ready we can go and get OUR superpuppies at the same time.
What do you think?
as you see, I appreciate good breeding so much that...I look for quality!
massimo

[fenris]

This discussion points out that breeding for dog-shows and show-titles is more or less a detriment for a breed. The requirements for breeding in the countries of origin of this breed (bonitations and functional testing) are very important factors for the development of a healthy, functional and harmonious dog.
But when it comes to size I think special attention must be kept on this factor to prevent loss of size through the generations. For some reason that I dont really understand, it seems that a decrease in size often occur when inbreeding or linebreeding. Last time I saw a group of Checkoslovakian wolfdogs they looked smaller than some years earlier. A similar tendency is seen among Saarlooswolfdogs.