Epilepsy and wolfdogs!?

[mijke]

This week I got a question from a owner of a CsW with epilepsy. He wanted to know if there are more CsW's or SW's with epilepsy. And I did not know exactly (I only heard rumours).

Unfortunaly in the kynlogian world a lot of people don't want to talk about diseases and hereditary lacks in a breed

But at the end that's very silly of course. Because only when you know what is going wrong in breeding lines, you can do something about it !
Of course no breeder is very happy when something unpleasant is happening in his breeding programm. But not one breeder shall do this on purpose!
But when it happens and the breeder does not talk about this, and doesn't change anything, always the individual owners and their dogs will be the victim!

And that's why I am so glad with very honest breeders like Philipe Bescond for example! (He did give honest information about a kryptorchid dog) That kind of breeders realy take care of a healthy breed. If all breeders would be as responsible as he, there wouldn´t be any genetic problems in the future!

On this moment I am very curious if there are more CsW's and SW's with epilepsy in Europe.

Thats why I have a few questions for the readers of this site:

Is (or was) one of you owner or breeder of a CsW or a SW with epilepsy?

How old was your dog when he got it?

What kind of medication did he get?

I added the same questions at the Dutch site. And I hope people will be so cooperative to give honest answers!

Greetings,

Mijke

[Thor]

My Csv has also been diagnosed with epilepsy recently. He is now 3 years old and got his first seizure when he was about 2.5 years old.
Luckily his illness is not severe, as he has had only a few seizures in the last six months.

Currently he is receiving pills with his food and appears normal but it is still too early to say wheter this medication is right for him.


Tuukka & Thor

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by mijke

Is (or was) one of you owner or breeder of a CsW or a SW with epilepsy?

Yes - I know more CzWs with epilepsy. Some of them had to be put down because of it.
So far (compared to the whole population) they seem to be an exception, but... we saw almost all the dogs have something common with each other. We tried to find common ancestors of this dogs and check if it is a problem of two of the lines of CzW. Almost without success... we marked only one line (thanks to the responsible breeders and owners from Germany).

Reason? You already wrote about it. Maybe Pavel can write more about it, but there were also some cases in the Czech Republic and the breeding committee knows this problem but they don't want to publish the information. And so far we do not know all ill dogs we are not able to fight with this disease....

Originally Posted by mijke

Unfortunaly in the kynlogian world a lot of people don't want to talk about diseases and hereditary lacks in a breed

But when it happens and the breeder does not talk about this, and doesn't change anything, always the individual owners and their dogs will be the victim!

You right. But not only owners are victims of the insincere breeder. Imagine this: a breeder is looking for a male for his bitch. He find a nice HD-free male. What he doesn't knows almost all puppies of this dog have HD. Because it is not allowed to publish the HD-results of the ill dogs he has no idea about is. But he means well. He use this dog and the result are a lot of ill puppies.

But HD is a disease which is hard to control. There are better examples: heart problems, cancer (which so far reach only dogs which are ancestors from a dogs from one kennel).
But the truth is: so far we do not have sufficient information about illness of CzWs. I can make some conjectures but there is not enough data to prove it.

It's the reason it's exceptionally important to colect the information about all diseases and death causes. We will need it - maybe not in the near future but in next 4-5(?) generations...

So someone of you knows a CzW which died because of an exceptional reasons (a disease which can be inherited: heart problems, HD, ED, PRA, cancer, epilepsy, and, and..) please let us know. We will not publish this information - we will just save it for future until we will be sure we have enough proofs...

[mijke]

You right. But not only owners are victims of the insincere breeder. Imagine this: a breeder is looking for a male for his bitch. He find a nice HD-free male. What he doesn't knows almost all puppies of this dog have HD. Because it is not allowed to publish the HD-results of the ill dogs he has no idea about is. But he means well. He use this dog and the result are a lot of ill puppies.

sorry when I wrote this I didn't realise this option, while I as a breeder ad the same experience with a male (of an other breed) with heart disease. But till now I was lucky; none of the pups became ill (but of course we don't know how it is in future with their puppy's )

It's the reason it's exceptionally important to colect the information about all diseases and death causes. We will need it - maybe not in the near future but in next 4-5(?) generations...

I completely agree with you!! But I also know a lot of silly people who don't want to inform us or other ones

And when people are going on and on with the same breeding lines with genetic health problems, we all don't notice the problems on this moment. But in future this can ruin a breed, and then we all know what was going on!!

I only can aks, just like Margo did, please inform eachother about these things! Only when we all are honoust and work together we can keep healthy breeds !

greetings,
mijke

[jiridavidek]

Unfortunately I was one of the owners of an epileptic dog. My previous dog had epilepsy. The story started as an one seizure a tha age of 2,5 years and then nothing for half year. But then seizures started again and with shorter intervals. Moreover they occured in clusters. Treated with barbiturates and valproic acid derivates per os then when the worse came into worst with injections of diazepam to stop seizures. Finaly the life of my dog consisted of seizures every 4-5 hours and lying down on the floor without eating and drinking for days. Nothing helped he was unable to walk. I euthanized him no necropsy was done, maybe mistake but that time I was unable to send him to lab. The story is on pages of Czech kennel club. I don't blame his breeder it was probably the first case from all of her puppies.

Jiri

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I absolutely agree with Margo and try to collect cases since years. But with epileptic dogs you have to be aware that not every case is inherited and that not every inherited case means a problem in the line. That makes observation double necessary to recognise genetic problems in time but a few cases are absolutely "normal" in dog breeds, like in cats, humans and so on. Even in breeds with epileptic breedinglines the genetic ways are sometimes very different.
It is because of these problems very important for breeders to stay in contact with the owners of their puppies. This is, as I can say out of own experience, sometimes almost impossible. If puppiebuyers don´t tell their breeders about problems he has no possibility to realise problems in time.

Ina

[mijke]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

But with epileptic dogs you have to be aware that not every case is inherited and that not every inherited case means a problem in the line.

I agree with you and this is also just the same for other health problems like haert for example)

It is because of these problems very important for breeders to stay in contact with the owners of their puppies. This is, as I can say out of own experience, sometimes almost impossible. If puppiebuyers don´t tell their breeders about problems he has no possibility to realise problems in time.

I had no intention to condemn breeders when they don't know about something!

But all kind of health problems seems to be a secret in every breed
It is very strange but even owners don't want to talk about it. Some individual persons did give me confidentinal the health information about their dog, but they don't want me to talk about it to other persons, breeders or clubs.

I had hope maybe they should react on this forum or on the dutch forum but non reactions And I think they are to blame to....

Of course nobody wants to have epilepsy, heart problems etc (genetic or not) in breeding lines.
But when nearly nobody wants to speak about these things, you can wait for problems in future....

Mijke

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I absolutely agree with Margo and try to collect cases since years. But with epileptic dogs you have to be aware that not every case is inherited and that not every inherited case means a problem in the line.

Sorry - I should write it before. It apply not only to epilepsy but to all problems where the way of inheritance is not precisely known...

I checked the info about epilepsy already before when we get info about first ill dogs (Ina, please correct me if I'm wrong).
There are two types of epilepsy - acquired and inherited. To check with which case we deal by a dog we have to examine him. First the veterinarian will try to exclude the possibility of acquired epilepsy which can be evoked by different factors: injury of the head, diseases, aso.. If all this reasons are eliminated it is probably inherited epilepsy. Additionally in the most cases the inherited epilepsy disclose before the age of 5 years (usually earlier).

We are not vets but using the database we can also check the possibilily of a inherited epilepsy. If there are more dogs from one line which before 5 y. fall ill it is probably inherited epilepsy. The probability of a right diagnosis grows if we have information about more ill dogs...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Margo

There are two types of epilepsy - acquired and inherited. To check with which case we deal by a dog we have to examine him. First the veterinarian will try to exclude the possibility of acquired epilepsy which can be evoked by different factors: injury of the head, diseases, aso.. If all this reasons are eliminated it is probably inherited epilepsy. Additionally in the most cases the inherited epilepsy disclose before the age of 5 years (usually earlier).

...

I´m no neurological specialist either, and in dayly veterinary hours it isn´t that important. Under normal conditions you can´t diagnose epilepsy directly, you need a EEG for that and it is not available for normal diagnosis in dogs and only used for research. If you get in a dog that seems to have had a epilileptic seizure you look for all other reasons that could cause alike problems like heart failure, failure of several organs and so on. If you can´t find anything you diagnose epilepsy. If you have seizures without any diagnosable changes in brainstructue its primary epilepsy (thats the german definition, I don´t know if I translated it correctly) if there is any organic brainproblem it`s the secundary form. There are forms that only make changes in some parts of the body or cause strange behaviours and a generalized form with the typical seizures.
In humans the primary form is definatly genetic. In dogs there is a primary form at least in some breeds. Research for that exists only for some laboratory breeds and lines. The diagnostic possibilitys in dogs are often not good enough to differ between those two forms and the genetic way seems to differ between breeds. In cases like the discribed one where the seizures got worse under treatment and the dog had to be put down a secundary form is much more likely.
The primary form normally occurs between two and five years of age. Brain damages that can cause epilepsy don´t have to be that bad and the seizures can occure years later. We once had a case where we think, that the seizure causing accident happend 4 years before, the dog ran into a fence and was a little bit dizzy for one hour. There is no way to get a secure diagnosis of secundary epilepsy in a case like that.
All these problems make the diagnosis of inherited forms so very difficult and more or less its a question of counting cases and watching lines. Anyway a dog with epilepsy should be kept out of breeding and it is for great interest for breeding that it goes to autopsy after his death.

As you see I´m not any wiser than you are and I have looked up every book in reach some month ago. As long as there isn´t a relevant increase of cases in a special line we don´t know if there is a genetic problem in the breed or not. The authors of the diffrent books give different advise for consequences. Some say you shouldn´t breed the parents of the dog too some just speak of the dog itself. I think you should watch the family very carefully, if there aren´t any more cases in the nearer relatives it is enough to keep only the dog out. But this means too that there is a problem with breeding dogs very early or very often. They might have a lot of offspring that has bred too before you get the first case.

regards
Ina

[solowolf]

hi, on the subject of epilepsy, i know of two dogs in uk, one a labrador the other a collie, both started taking fits at about 14mths of age, the vets treated the dogs for epilepsy, the owners of the labrador got second oppinion from another vet, there dog was not epileptic but suffered from
HYPOGLYCEMIA where the sugar level in blood gets low, this can cause the dog to go into a fit & to have seizures, so it may be worth having second oppinion on the dogs, there is usful web site you my like to read & find out more on this www.vetinfo.com/dhypogly.html best regards paul winder

[Margo]

UPDATED MARCH 2006: Dr. Yuri F. Melekhovets, Laboratory Director of HealthGene Corp., Toronto, Canada, has announced that his group has located the gene responsible for producing inherited epilepsy in canines. HealthGene Corporation is the largest private veterinary DNA diagnostic and research laboratory in Canada. DNA-based testing for animal infectious and genetic diseases. HealthGene now is studying the various mutations that produce different forms of epilepsy in different breeds. Dr. Melekhovets requests that owners of dogs with epilepsy submit blood samples to further that research. Samples should come from dogs which have been medically diagnosed with epilepsy or have had symptoms of epilepsy for at least two years. Two vials of blood samples per dog should be sent in lavender topped tubes, together with a pedigree and brief health history (whether it has seizures, when they started, whether they are mild or severe, and what type of diagnostics have been performed). Send the samples by FedEx, using HealthGene's account number (#23836813, using FedEx's International Air Waybill with the following information for "Shipment Information":

a) Commodity description: "Canine Blood Samples for DNA Testing";
b) Total Declared Value for Customs is $1.00;
c) international first; and
d) 3 copies commercial invoice.

Send the vials to this address:
HealthGene Laboratory, 2175 Keele
Street, Toronto, Ontario M6M 3Z4 Canada.

Dr. Melekhovets may be contacted at:
telephone: 905-669-5399;
fax: 905-669-2235;
email: dr.melekhovets @ healthgene.com (without the spaces)
http://www.healthgene.com/

[johnslawek]

All my research tells me that wolves are healthier than domestic dogs. As such, if true, why would wolfdogs health and more pointedly epilepsy be more prevalent. Or is it an abberation?

[Dharkwolf]

Actually -

Concerning epilepsy I do believe that it is a rare condition for CSVs - but certainly not something which is unknown (I have heard of a couple of cases) if a test is available for the gene which causes inherited epilepsy and IF the CSVs which suffer from epilepsy actually carry the gene (there could be other reasons for the epilepsy - it does not have to be hereditary) then as a breeder I would certainly be interested in knowing this to prevent crossing two CSVs which are carriers of the epilepsy gene and which could therefore potentially produce epileptic pups.

One thing that is important to understand is that for this test (or indeed any other test) to have any real value for the CSV community it needs to be performed on a significant proportion of CSVs - it is no good my knowing what the result of my dogs epilepsy assays are when I have no idea what the situation in other dogs may be like. I might have some information on hand (ie my dogs results from the genetic assay) but unless I can compare them to other peoples results in for the same assay I cannot possibly use that information to make an informed decision at the time of mating.

[loco]

At the moment on the Dutch forum this is a Hot topic , and now I heard off several diffrent cases off Epilepsy in the breed of CSW .
I really start to wonder how big is the problem Epilepsy in the breed of the CSW ??

Or is it just as everything else in this breed just a unlucky case on itself.

Hope somebody can give me a honest answer.
Groette Martine.

[Hanka]

Yes, epilepsy is in this breed too. But I know personally only a few dogs in Czech republic (less than is of fingers on one hand)with it.
Important is, don´t breed dogs with this illnes.....It is always the same: in every country breeders need club with working breedcomission

[loco]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Yes, epilepsy is in this breed too. But I know personally only a few dogs in Czech republic (less than is of fingers on one hand)with it.
Important is, don´t breed dogs with this illnes.....It is always the same: in every country breeders need club with working breedcomission

Breedcommision .
Hopefully someday, but then for whole Europe .

But you say, only the dog you must shut out of breeding ??
And every site you find on the internet about epilepsy they say shut out the whole line .
But how you do this in the breed off CSW ??
And if there are just a few in CZ and a few in Holland, how much shall it be in whole of Europe ??

The more I know about epilepsy the more cloudy it gets for me .

Groette Martine.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi,

in Germany we also have several dogs with epilepsy. You can even trace the lines.
The problem is the breeders most often deny such cases and put even pressure on the owner not to bring it into public.

Michael

[loco]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi,

in Germany we also have several dogs with epilepsy. You can even trace the lines.
Michael

I can not trace it .
Because it is a disease no one wants to talk about.

And if we all keep silence .
Maybe someday, it is as normal as by the malinois.

Groette Martine.

[Xhrista]

Because we not know how epilepsie goes,we must not shut out hole line,because thats make the breed population to small.
Epilepsie is not the only sicknes there is..

Maybe it's posible to make a european list with names of sick dogs on this site?
It's difficult to do it in each country apart,because there is al lot of import from all country's.(and soms coutry's don't have a breeding club of they do nothing with ilness) .So it's better to centralice it.

Only with permission of te owner ofcourse.

Gr. Christa

[jmvdwiel]

In holland there is a very small breed the dutch Schapendoes. They had a severy problem with PRA, al the breeders, owners and the club agreed that this was a big problem. So they did something about it! They found a DNAmarker, so now there are no new PRA dog born anymore, in the future they wil try to get rid of the problem DNA totally.

This is only to tel you what is possible if al breeders work together!
Why not try to make the largest DNA datapool ever ? collect some blood from a lot of CSecloslovakian wolfdog, maybee even try to do it when the puppies are stil at the breeders place. Store the DNA (blood samples) in a special laboratory so it is there whenever there is a reason to look at it.

I hope that something can be done, but than you wil need the cooperation from the breeders and the owners.

greetings Judith