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Old 11-08-2009, 13:51   #1
Hanka
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Default Winners of shows

Is it normal when winners of shows ary shy wolfdogs?
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/gallery/pic/100688/
It is not in standart. Why everybody who wants can to do judge for our breed? My God, it is way to Hell......................
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Old 11-08-2009, 14:33   #2
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Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Is it normal when winners of shows ary shy wolfdogs?
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/gallery/pic/100688/
It is not in standart. Why everybody who wants can to do judge for our breed? My God, it is way to Hell......................
It is also very normal in Holland .

Groette Martine.
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Old 11-08-2009, 19:34   #3
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Hmmm, really very good publicity for our breed..............
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/en/gallery/pic/40853/
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Old 11-08-2009, 19:37   #4
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With this photo I would be carefull with my judgement. It could be that the dog is afraid of the other wolfdog, it could be it doesn´t like the podium.

Ina
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Old 11-08-2009, 21:28   #5
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Yes, it can be, of course. But everybody can to do fotos for magazines, to Tv, etc. And nobody will ask WHY is his tail under....The people can see shy wolfdog only. And people will think, it is normal for this breed.
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Old 11-08-2009, 22:59   #6
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With this photo I would be carefull with my judgement. It could be that the dog is afraid of the other wolfdog, it could be it doesn´t like the podium.

Ina

i'm agree with you, and the photo has been take at 1 moment !!

but on the show in france on champion class one dog had agress on judge
and he said " no ,no it's normaly " THIS ...... ISN'T NORMALY !!!!


BUT on this picture it's one moment out off the ring
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Old 12-08-2009, 12:40   #7
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Alud was in my hand in Budapest Klubshow last oktober, I hadle her in the ring in the competition for klub winner female. She was ok, absolutly handable, not agressive,not shy.
Every dog has bad moments, and everybody could make bad photos............to put it to public? ...hmmmm and than write bad things without knowing the dog...(?) hmmmmm
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Old 12-08-2009, 22:40   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Is it normal when winners of shows ary shy wolfdogs?
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/gallery/pic/100688/
It is not in standart. Why everybody who wants can to do judge for our breed? My God, it is way to Hell......................
I would not judge that hard on a photo or two...

The same dog was at WDS in Stockholm 2008, I did not se her shy, I did take a look again now on all my photos, but no photo of her shy either way I do not know the dog in person and I would not judge her after just one meeting...

Shy show dogs and lines might be a problem, but way not just talk about that, way just talk about this dog or hang her out ???

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 17-08-2009, 18:42   #9
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I think it's unfortunate for the reputation of the CsV breed that their temperaments are so close to wolves that all their visual cues when it comes to behavior are exaggerated. What may look like very shy submissive dog in another breed like a labrador, who doesn't exhibit many wolf-like traits, could be one second of "communication" for a CsV. Wolves, and therefor dogs close to wolves, communicate their feelings through very exaggerated visual cues, and show how the dog is feeling in one particular instant, instead of other dogs who only show traits like that in very extreme cases.

Even though this is a normal thing, obviously dogs who show submissive/shy behavior as their normal character should be excluded from shows and breeding. Also, pictures like these that may show only a second of the dog's character (which ISN'T the norm for that particular dog) should be excluded from press because people unfamiliar with the breed will make assumptions. It's really hard working with a breed that is so misunderstood!
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Old 17-08-2009, 19:34   #10
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Yes...but the person who started this topic is a well known breeder and she must know the caracter of the breed, behaviour of csw as she deal with wolfdogs for ages. So I'm just wondering why she open this topic and started to cause bad reputation of this multiCH female, for her owner,for her breeder....and for the breed.
But this is not the first time and unfortunately not the last that she did it
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Old 17-08-2009, 22:00   #11
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This dog isn't a really shy dog but not even a dog with strong character.

She' s simply a dog without a secure point of reference : she travels all around the world with several handlers only to win an exaggerate number of silly championship like Bosnia, Croatia and so on, just to compensate the ego of its owner.
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Old 18-08-2009, 06:09   #12
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Hello Vicky, please read about this breed more. It was made like working breed. Thear character is not closed wolves. In standart is nothing about shynnes. Shy wolfdog = bad wolfdog.
Jasmine (Edit Molnar), please don´t write about me, I don´t it too. Thanks

In my first article could to be some other fotos too, because on much shows in the world I can see similar fotos. Winner of show with tail under stomach. Very good imagine of our breed.
It is not saarlos, it is czechosl. wolfdog. Much owners, breedes forgot it and much of them don´t know first idea for making of this breed.
But it is always the same. Breeding without bonitations, breeding without selection, every wolfdog is good for breeding.................But it is so easy and good for producing of pups. I am not suprised.
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Old 18-08-2009, 08:36   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Hello Vicky, please read about this breed more. It was made like working breed. Thear character is not closed wolves. In standart is nothing about shynnes. Shy wolfdog = bad wolfdog.
Jasmine (Edit Molnar), please don´t write about me, I don´t it too. Thanks

.
Vicky didn´t write about charakter but about temperament and I think what she ment was body language. I very often have seen the situation that somebody thought a wolfdog is afraid of something because it´s tail was down and maybe a little bit curled to the inside, knowing these dogs in daily life I know they aren´t shy at all, they haven´t been afraid, they simply didn´t like this special situation in this very moment but passed it without any problems. The reason for this is that they show more body-expressions of their emotional status than a normal dog, simply because they are still able to show it anatomically. The human taste in bodyshapes has robbed every breed of a lot of it´s ability to show body-signals out of anatomical reasons. It has nothing to do with charakter it is only a lack of body function.
Being used to wolves and working with them every day I do see that already our breed has lost some of this language, seeing hundreds of dogs of all breeds every year I can see that they still show a lot more signals than other breeds. The latter is the problem in judging for people that aren´t used to wolves that much but used to other breeds.
One of my dogs won´t carry it´s tail high all the time on an exhibition and very likely will carry it down on a podium because she doesn´t like to sit in noisy surroundings being bored all day. She is able to do several week old cartrails through the center of a very big city through heavy traffic over several kilometers and has proofed so several times. I can surely say she is a true working dog even if she may carry her tail down on a podium.
Dogs can´t be judged on charakter out of one very special situation.

Ina
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Old 18-08-2009, 09:46   #14
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I would like to pay your attention Hanka (Kaufmanova), that to write bad things and put bad pictures in an open forum is not too ethical and not too intelligent things.
And this is not the first time from you.
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Old 18-08-2009, 13:04   #15
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This is exactly what I was saying. I know full well that shyness is a trait that should be excluded from the breed, but I'm saying that this is a quality that should always be judged while actually, physically, in front of the dog. I am in no way confusing CsVs with wolves, I see the same exaggerated body language every day with my siberian husky, as well as others that I have worked with, and the behavior is constantly misinterpreted by people who don't understand this language.

The way I see it, a dog is allowed a photo or two in one instant where something in the situation made them unsure. However, if this shyness is a dog's normal state, and there ISN'T a time the dog is confident, then THAT is the dog that should be disqualified.

I'm not commenting here or there on the dog posted in this thread, because I don't know the dog. However, I am commenting on the use of one photo to judge a dog's character.


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Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
Vicky didn´t write about charakter but about temperament and I think what she ment was body language. I very often have seen the situation that somebody thought a wolfdog is afraid of something because it´s tail was down and maybe a little bit curled to the inside, knowing these dogs in daily life I know they aren´t shy at all, they haven´t been afraid, they simply didn´t like this special situation in this very moment but passed it without any problems. The reason for this is that they show more body-expressions of their emotional status than a normal dog, simply because they are still able to show it anatomically. The human taste in bodyshapes has robbed every breed of a lot of it´s ability to show body-signals out of anatomical reasons. It has nothing to do with charakter it is only a lack of body function.
Being used to wolves and working with them every day I do see that already our breed has lost some of this language, seeing hundreds of dogs of all breeds every year I can see that they still show a lot more signals than other breeds. The latter is the problem in judging for people that aren´t used to wolves that much but used to other breeds.
One of my dogs won´t carry it´s tail high all the time on an exhibition and very likely will carry it down on a podium because she doesn´t like to sit in noisy surroundings being bored all day. She is able to do several week old cartrails through the center of a very big city through heavy traffic over several kilometers and has proofed so several times. I can surely say she is a true working dog even if she may carry her tail down on a podium.
Dogs can´t be judged on charakter out of one very special situation.

Ina
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Old 18-08-2009, 15:41   #16
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Edit, Hanka, if you have personal issues you might want to clarify them in private...otherwise it becomes boring for us, sorry.

As for that dog, surely to see a dog with tail under belly is not nice, but if the tail under belly was not the usual position of the dog but just one moment, then a moment is not important to judge a character of a dog.

I've seen Alud personally and I can assure you I can find thousands of dogs shyer and with a worst character than her.
Maybe she's not a lion, but definitely NOT a negative example for our breed.

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Old 18-08-2009, 18:03   #17
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Hi,

what was the intention of this thread anyway?
I've seen dozens, probably more dogs behaving like this in certain situations they didn't like through the years.
Dogs from every country and every breeder.
I've seen dogs during the bonitation trembling and tail under the belly while measured, but receiving an Of in the character test.
And I've seen dogs perfectly trained for dog shows, but not able to cope with everyday situations.
Old and well known stories, so again, whats the intention?
And by the way, as everyone already wrote, you can't judge the character of a dog by one picture on internet

Michael

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Old 18-08-2009, 19:07   #18
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So far I think it have something to do with the fakt that Alud is winning some dogshows, probably only because she have a handler well know world wide also by the judges.

its nothing new, as very fell judges know the breed in question for really make a judgement.
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Old 18-08-2009, 20:30   #19
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So far I think it have something to do with the fakt that Alud is winning some dogshows, probably only because she have a handler well know world wide also by the judges.
its nothing new, as very fell judges know the breed in question for really make a judgement.
I really don't like this comment...sorry but I think you should have thought a couple of seconds before writing it...
I am NOT a friend of the owner of Alud... so I try to be as objective as possible.
I don't care about the shows she won in Switzerland and Greece and Lithuania and Slovenia...but Alud also won BOB at Special Club Show in Bratislava with Oskar Dora...
Maybe Oskar Dora is not good judge enough?? Maybe Oskar Dora sees only the handler and not the dog? maybe Oskar Dora cannot tell a shy dog from a normal one?
Please...I think this thread has no need to continue...
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Old 18-08-2009, 20:42   #20
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Or maybe he saw the show, not the dog, sorry I do really like Oskar, but he is human as anyone here.
Sorry Masimo, but I know very well how works a professional handler, as I know that they can make even the worstest dog in the world a nice exemple in the front of judges, and the worst, make this dog winn, no wonder why as its their work.
Maybe its because it still didn't arrives to CzW, but this kind of behaviour only brings problem to several breeds, and people must be warned.
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