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Old 12-12-2012, 00:21   #141
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Once again I see you've decided to ignore the fact you lied. I also see you've reverted to being immature and repeating your exact same comment, completely ignoring the fact that you can see registrations on the database.

The sire was not registered, neither was one of his parents but after that, all are registered. If you'd looked you would of seen VDH numbers. Seriously how do you think a dog is a mix, when both parents are registered?

I simply brought up your dog to show the credibility of someone like you, who's questioning my dog. But if you want me to create a separate thread for it, I'll do it, what should I call it? Ligerwolve2's "Czechoslovakian Shepherd"?

Last edited by Wolves; 12-12-2012 at 00:27.
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:39   #142
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What do you mean "both" parents are registered but then both sire and grandsire are non registered?

Sorry you lose me here.

You brought up my dog to redirect. My dogs and myself have nothing to do with you, the breeder and the dogs involved. I find it quite amusing you have reduced yourself to the level of personal attacks because I dared to ask questions. I think its something you will have to get used to.

I wouldnt get angry about it. You have two dogs you love dont you? So why not be happy and honest and just explain? You will never get people to look at them as pedigree without papers. Pure ... maybe. I think that depends on the information offered.

Like I actually said on DOL I dont know the dogs involved only quoted other people more in the know. I said I was not sure what the truth is. The only thing you can accuse me of is not liking the lack of information coming from the breeder.

How many of us would be suspicious of a breeder who would not answer questions? Rings alarm bells for me and Ive said as much ALWAYS adding that its purely my opinion and without further information I cant say more.

If you would like I will go back there right now and clarify using the information you gave me that the bitch is FCI registered but the male is not and therefore all pups are not. Happy to do it. Im happy to pass on anything else you would like too. Infact why dont you go and introduce yourself?

I dont know why you want to drag up my dog. If I was trying to buy a pup sure there would be grounds to ask how much experience I have. If I was talking about what CzW are like from my experience....well I havent own one yet and freely admit as such. Ive only ever talked about what my dog was like for me. I never bred her, showed her or anything else that requires me to prove anything. If I did breed her Id expect people to ask.

You can start what ever topic you like. Thats between you and the Mods.
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Old 12-12-2012, 03:25   #143
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When I say both parents, im not refering to my dogs. I'm referring to Esaya, who was the first non registered dog in the pedigree, but both her parents were registered. Now I'm fully aware that many in the purebred world would classify a dog as a cross, just because it's not registered, even if both the parents are. But genetically that's false, and as far as I'm concerned it's stupid. From a genetic point of view, pure breeding has nothing to do registering, some people need to understand that.

Name calling? I've haven't said anything without reason. Bringing up your dogs wasn't a distraction. I'm within my rights to question you, when you've constantly being questioning me.

Now originally I was debating the purity of my dogs. You've come and tried to change the subject to the practises of their breeder. As I've said, everything was done properly. But if you would like to ask the breeder go ahead, don't ask me because I don't care. My dogs are fit, healthy and happy and that's what matters to me in the end of the day, not wether the breeder was registered with the FCI or not. I came back to post some pics, give my reasons for them being pure and prove some people's ignorant (i feel like i have to use that word a lot here) speculations wrong.

I was joking about creating the thread, I don't have the time nor the concern to. But I don't understand why you're so private about it. I've already given my reasons to why they're is no such thing as a Czechoslovakian Shepherd, so lets leave it there.

Last edited by Wolves; 12-12-2012 at 03:28.
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Old 12-12-2012, 13:03   #144
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Thats your reasoning. Fully understandable. The reason people who are passionate about dogs will be skeptical like myself is that when there is no registration the breeder themself has filled in the pedigree and thats all there is. No outside unbiased body. So someone who is dodgey would say yes they are pure when infact they did not register the litter is the sire was a different dog.

I know this isnt perfect. I know there are other ways to register and keep pure lines BUT when someone does it, questions are raised.

You have made personal attacks, you did not need to do when exlaining your reasons would have sufficed. Im questioning this litter and its parents as I think the truth here is important. Lay the card out on the table and let people make informed choices. Your questioning of my dog is off topic.

My first post was to the breeder and I think I made that clear. I question you about your dogs because like it or not you are an ambassador to the breed. I think its something you are going to find happens alot. Will you question every person the way you have me if they ask you some of the basic questions.

I have also questioned the way the breed is being introduced here. Im passionate about the breed and want whats best so yes I will question.

Photos give us a clue not proof of anything. To have proof you need one of two things neither of which you are interested in. Which is fine, you just wanted pets. The breeder I still think would be best to think about this if they want to continue to have more litters.


The only thing really clear is that the male and pups are not registered. I personally would like some more information. Why were the original dogs not registered. What was the breeders reasoning?

What is the breeder of these pups doing? Will they be breeding more? Are they being ethical? Is this damaging for the breed here?

I just honestly want to know what is going on. No judgements. I just would like to have that information.

YOU dont have to answer my questions. Other people are allowed to speak up. Besides I do not think you have any interest in my last few questions BUT you could give your exerience with them.

I would like to know why people think the breeder uses a cross?

Thats your opinion. You can have it. Its not mine, nor the people who work with them, nor that of the people who have met her.
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Old 12-12-2012, 13:11   #145
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Going back and reading over my first posts I think I was nothing but polite to you and said a few times I was not saying if they were pure or not.

However there is a question I asked that I am genuinely ineterested in. IF you would answer of your own experience, please.

Were you shown or recieved copies of the health tests recommended for the breed, from the parents?

Im not asking to insult you or anyone else Id just like to know.
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Old 12-12-2012, 14:43   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2 View Post


I would like to know why people think the breeder uses a cross?

.
We know that from betrayed puppybuyers and from advertisements the breeder made herself:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...+spirit&page=2
http://www.dhd24.com/archiv/index.ph...t=raven+spirit

I am sorry it is on German but I don´t have the time to translate and I am not responsible for the dogs anyway.
She sold a lot of people dogs as purebreds that weren´t and she seems to have made a crossing between daughter and father as well.
Even IF the male is from the Dünnerntal ancestor , Dünnerntal belongs to Roland Homberger who has been thrown out of the German Kennelclub long time ago, shows up every now and then and dissapears again owing money and abandoning dogs. The Dünnerntal ancestor was born by a mother that has been bred in the age of 10 month. This is one of the very few things that are likely to be true. Shortly after Homberger dissapeared again leaving a very young women with a very small child and a lot of not very well fed dogs of doubtfull but not purebred origin.

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...land+homberger

IF this puppy found it´s way to Raven Spirit and IF it is the mother of the dog, they might be purebred but from parents without healthtests. And as the only other dog with prooven origin anybody knows of Raven Spirit owned, is one male of Spirit of the Wolf (called by her Fenris) that was used for every litter we know also that the mothers are mixed and as written before we know this from puppybuyers that have been there.

Fact is, that neither Raven Spirit nor vom Dünnernthal can be trusted with anything nor did they undergo any controles by officials, but by themself have advertised mixes with TWHs several times.

So no responsible breeder would use them as a founding stock for a breed newly introduced in a country.

Ina

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Old 12-12-2012, 22:54   #147
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Ina, you've allowed the possibility that they're pure. Now from what you're saying, the Dunnernthal breeder may not be very reputable. But that's not any evidence to say that my dogs aren't pure, and so far no one has provided evidence, everyone's opinions have just been based on speculations about the breeder.

I just like to point out that Czw here in Australia aren't being used to establish the breed. The breeder probably isn't going to be breeding again. But what these czw have done, is develope a wide interest and admiration in the breed. I even know people who are now considering importing czws, as they can no longer buy any in Australia. The most damaging thing to the breed in Australia, has been the attitudes on this thread, rather than any constructive comments, it has been an attack on the Australian breeder. I'm very greatful for the expense that the Australian breeder has gone to, to bring these beautiful dogs here, and I'm disappointed in the unfair criticism on these forums.

As I said the intention wasn't to establish the breed here, I'd like to remind you it would be impossible to establish a breed fully in a new country with only one breeding pair. But what has been done is establish wonderful ambassadors for the breed, for when people do import and establish a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog kennel here.


Ligerwolve, you appear to be forgetting who started this thread. I did.
The title is Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs Australia. It is in no way related to my dogs in particular, I started this thread long before they were born. Therefore my dogs aren't the point of discussion of this thread, sorry I decided the point of discussion here, not you.

You claim to of owned a "wolfdog" that has "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" in it and called her a "Czechoslovakian Shepherd". Given my title, your dog is most definitely able to be questioned here. Where's the papers? Where's the photos? Where's the genetic test results? I want to see the proof of Czw in them.

Sorry, your attempts to deflect my questions won't work here anymore.
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:02   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolves View Post
Ina, you've allowed the possibility that they're pure.
But also equally (if not more?) possibility that they're not?

Look, I don't live in Australia, I don't even breed, and since you say your pair is sterilized anyway, it really doesn't matter, but logically speaking when reading this interesting thread, how can they be 'wonderful ambassadors' for the breed when it seems likely the dogs were irresponsibly bred, recorded, and only may (or may not) be purebred?
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Old 12-12-2012, 23:12   #149
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By the way, the correct translation of vlciak is not wolfdog.

The important thing is that you can never say if the dog is pure or not as both Raven Spirit and Homberger have lied more than said the truth in the past. And have very often sold mixes as pures. Fact is you will never know as describing them as being not very reputable does only show that you are not able to understand the point of breeding.
To be an ambassador for that breed it would at least have to be a member of the breed and we all can only hope that future importers and breeders care more about where to get their dogs from and aren´t ambassadored in do it the same way.

It´s useless to continue this discussion as you are not able to understand what several people tried to explain. I can only hope that people that got interested and might have a look here learn out of it not to buy the first dog available and ask some of the very important questions about papers, health and kennel controls and not in the least breeding lines. In this way this thread can be of great benefit.

Ina
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Old 13-12-2012, 00:02   #150
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"By the way, the correct translation of vlciak is not wolfdog." What does that have to do with this conversation?

You have clearly misunderstood what I've been saying.
"Fact is you will never know as describing them as being not very reputable does only show that you are not able to understand the point of breeding." I was trying to be reasonable and see your point of view, I don't see how you're trying to use that against me....?

Yukidomari, how are the dogs irresponsibly bred, ligerwolve has been saying that without evidence and she clearly has no credibility what so ever. The breeder of my pups wouldn't even talk to her.

Registration is a piece of paper, if the dog is purebred, it's a czechoslovakian wolfdog, registered or not. I understand that the FCI attempts to control breeding, but just because a breeder is not registered does not mean they're not responsible by any means. There is no evidence to suggest my dogs aren't pure, MOST LIKELY they are pure, and are the only ones in Australia. They have received nothing but admiration from members of the public and have sparked a lot of interest in the breed. That surely would qualify them as excellent ambassadors. They are representing the breed here wether you like or not.

Again I will say. You're making claims without evidence. I don't know if you understand here, every argument you've put forward is based on gossip and hearsay. There is no evidence, we have a pedigree that shows they're pure, are you claiming that is fraudulent? Let me remind you that in many countries, especially Australia, if you make claims like that without evidence, you could prosecuted for defamation.

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Old 13-12-2012, 00:20   #151
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Actually, I wasn't referencing Ligrewolves' comments at all. I was actually talking about the links that Michael and Ina Eichhorn posted about the Dünnerntal dog & others which don't seem to be responsibly bred at all.. And actually, yes, non-registration of a litter does to a certain extent mean a breeder is not responsible, since most purebred dogs are not existing in nature (excluding some, very few landrace breeds of which Czechoslovakian Vlcaks are not) - they are bred by humans and exist only because of that, and accurate record keeping is paramount to their preservation.

And, if a breeder doesn't care about that, then I can hardly call them responsible.
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Old 13-12-2012, 00:34   #152
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I was originally talking about wether my dogs were pure or not. I was not talking about the responsibility of breeding. However I will say that organisations are merely a bureaucracy that attempts to control breeding but can not guarantee that breeders registered with them are breeding responsibly.

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Old 13-12-2012, 06:08   #153
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My credability is just fine thanks Oh and actually that breeder did speak to me, and other people up untill health tests were brought up.

She isnt a CzW so nope Why dont you try worrying about your credability.

As far as I can see there is enough to "suggest" they are crosses. Especially since the breeder HIMSELF said so about the male. Which in turn means yours. If you wanted "pure" CzWs you should have waited and done some research.

If no health tests have been done the chance of illness is much much higher. If that happens how can they possibly be "wonderful ambassadors"? Yes they will stir up interest. Which is why the best examples would have been better. Healthy, good temp dogs would get alot more attention. If they end up in shelters it will actually go against them. Thats why its wise to be careful who you sell to.

I actually think you know very little of what goes on with registered dogs. You dont just send off for a peice of paper
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Old 13-12-2012, 08:05   #154
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No you're credibility isn't fine, and the fact you think it is, is quite hilarious to be honest. Firstly you claimed the mother of my dogs was in doubt, which means you made no effort at all to check the pedigree, even though it's been up there for years now.

YOU CLAIM YOUR DOG HAD CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOG IN IT, which you thought gave you the right to call her a wolfdog, but it's a complete lie anyway and you know it. It's my thread, I'll ask whatever questions I like. You don't decide what's talked about and what isn't talked about here.

YOUR ATTEMPTS TO DEFLECT MY QUESTIONS WON'T WORK HERE ANYMORE.

"Healthy, good temp dogs would get alot more attention" So you've seen my dogs and know about their health and temperament do you? You have absolutely no clue about my dogs. Thanks for showing your ignorance again. See I don't make insults without reason, anyone just needs to go back and read what you've said to see fine examples of someone who arrogant, ignorant and immature. Stop trying to sound as if you know what you're talking about, it's not doing any good for your "credibility".

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Old 13-12-2012, 11:07   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
We know that from betrayed puppybuyers and from advertisements the breeder made herself:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...+spirit&page=2
http://www.dhd24.com/archiv/index.ph...t=raven+spirit

I am sorry it is on German but I don´t have the time to translate and I am not responsible for the dogs anyway.
She sold a lot of people dogs as purebreds that weren´t and she seems to have made a crossing between daughter and father as well.
Even IF the male is from the Dünnerntal ancestor , Dünnerntal belongs to Roland Homberger who has been thrown out of the German Kennelclub long time ago, shows up every now and then and dissapears again owing money and abandoning dogs. The Dünnerntal ancestor was born by a mother that has been bred in the age of 10 month. This is one of the very few things that are likely to be true. Shortly after Homberger dissapeared again leaving a very young women with a very small child and a lot of not very well fed dogs of doubtfull but not purebred origin.

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthr...land+homberger

IF this puppy found it´s way to Raven Spirit and IF it is the mother of the dog, they might be purebred but from parents without healthtests. And as the only other dog with prooven origin anybody knows of Raven Spirit owned, is one male of Spirit of the Wolf (called by her Fenris) that was used for every litter we know also that the mothers are mixed and as written before we know this from puppybuyers that have been there.

Fact is, that neither Raven Spirit nor vom Dünnernthal can be trusted with anything nor did they undergo any controles by officials, but by themself have advertised mixes with TWHs several times.

So no responsible breeder would use them as a founding stock for a breed newly introduced in a country.

Ina
Sorry I forgot to thank you for posting that. I will be having a good read when I get the chance.

Wolves you can harp on all you like Im not explaining my dog anymore to you.

My credability is fine Im a registered breeder and worked in the animal industry a long time. Im afraid that although your opinion is not good I do just fine thanks

I asked you if your dogs parents had any health tests done. You didnt answer but I do know that your pups are too young at this time to have proper gradings done.

Also Id really like it if you stopped putting words in my mouth. I said a while ago that the "parents" were in question. I never said that either dog was a cross only that there was speculation. Which at the time there was talk on here of the "parents" not being pure. You like to leave out the bit where I said that I just had warning bells going off for me and that people should do their own digging. I also went back later and said it was the sire and grandsire. So you have no case there Im afraid but good luck

You can rant all you like but you cant force me to discuss anything. Perhaps if you were polite Id be inclined. What a breeder thinks is between them and me. Id happily link them to the variety of photos if they wanted. I would show them papers if they needed. However I would assume they would treat me like any novice since I have not owned a CzW. Anyway thats a long way off and Im not concerned. Any breeders who do come here will probably get a chance to meet me anyway if they exhibit their dogs.

Personally Id like to see the quarantine reduced to 10 days instead of 30 first. Crossing all fingers that happens as it will certainly be better for any dogs arriving here.
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Old 13-12-2012, 11:49   #156
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I'm not putting words in your mouth and you're lying again. You posted that both dogs were in doubt this year, not once has anyone said this year that the mother was in doubt. Stop trying to cover up the fact you lied.

I don't think the Czw wolfdog community will be interested in your "Czechoslovakian Shepherd" given she never existed. I've already told you that Czechoslovakian Shepherd is a misleading name for German Shepherds from former Czechoslovakia and I'm sure they'll agree with me.

There is no record of czw foundation stock being used to breed back to German Shepherds, and it would be a stupid idea. The main foundation stock would of been in breeding stations at the time!

I know from first hand knowledge what you're saying can't be true. But your continuous attempts to ignore my questions, solidifies my idea that you're lieing. As I said why don't you ask some of the Czech or Slovak breeders what they think of your "Czechoslovakian Shepherd" with "foundation czw" stock in her who looks like a German shepherd, but is called a wolfdog?

Also you said the breeder was FCI registered, what were the dogs registered as when there is no such breed as a Czechoslovakian Shepherd?


Yeah, you're credibility is nothing but a joke. I'd just like to say that everyone here despite what they've said, has managed to present themselves in a mature and adult manner, you on the other hand I have no idea wether I'm arguing with an adult or a 12 year old. If you want to be taken seriously don't start using childish Internet abbreviations such as "LMAO" and "ROFL".
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Old 13-12-2012, 12:19   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligerwolve2 View Post
Sorry I forgot to thank you for posting that. I will be having a good read when I get the chance.
I'm glad you're going to have a good read. Seriously why are you so interested in my dogs and their lines? There are plenty of other dogs in Australia to be interested in. I can understand the other people in the thread, but you're not even affiliated with the breed.
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Old 13-12-2012, 14:03   #158
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Ive been interested in the breed for over 10 yrs. I was almost at the point of importing before a personal matter stopped me.

I have been passionate about them for a very long time and want them introduced properly. Id like the chance to own and show one but if people dont take care they will just be banned.

Im interested in this litter because people who know my wolfdog thought maybe I might know about these dogs. Some people even know I love the CzW and wanted my take on it. I gathered that one dog was at least unregistered but wanted to see what the breeder would do. I think registered is better but the MOST important thing to me is how the breeder operates. There are ANKC unregistered dogs for example registered with the working dog register. They are just as ethical as the ANKC breeders. They do everything the same almost. So I wouldnt tell people to steer clear of them say if they wanted a top working kelpie. That would actually be the better place to go. So what Im getting at as I reserve judgement. They are open and clear though about what they are. When the breeder wouldnt answer my questions I said as much and directed people to read the threads here and make up there own mind but that I wouldnt. Keep in mind Id prefer a registered animal anyway. Ive got small children (so Im not ready to take on another dog anyway right now) and would want to really be sure of lines. Any kind of suspect is too much for me.

Its my opinion that this isnt the kind of breeder Id recommend (given you wont tell me about your experience) but if they never have another litter it doesnt really matter does it.

Ive worked in the animal industry a long time. You may not want to hear my opinion but I know how quickly these things can snow ball. Im not trying to rain on your parade so to speak. If you were talking about how cute they are, funny things they do Id be in there agreeing. If you asked me a question Id answer it to help you. I think we need more of that in the dog world! However I think you miss the point some of us have tried to make and Im not sure its worth explaining again. A closed mind is a closed mind.


I dont mind answering any reasonable questions but Im growing tired of personal attacks. Im not a liar, thats just your opinion. Like Ive said Im not going to discuss my dog anymore. You are not interested in my dog at all. You dont have any first hand knowledge of my dog or her breed. How can you when you have never met one or met my dog.

"Yeah, you're credibility is nothing but a joke. I'd just like to say that everyone here despite what they've said, has managed to present themselves in a mature and adult manner, you on the other hand I have no idea wether I'm arguing with an adult or a 12 year old. If you want to be taken seriously don't start using childish Internet abbreviations such as "LMAO" and "ROFL". " - Seriously? Honestly I dont know what your point is. There are a number of members here that do exactly the same. You never bother to point that out. Oh thats right I asked if you knew of any health tests. Ahhhh I see totally means you can be insulting.

Anyway. Unless you are interested in actually offering some info - even just telling us what good experiences you have had with the breeder or the breed, Im going to stop replying. I dont see the point of it.

I still wish you all the best with your two.
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Old 13-12-2012, 21:52   #159
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I've mentioned many times we were satisfied with the breeder. My family were registered purebred breeders for decades, vaccinated, registered and health checked and we did our best to ensure they went to the best possible homes. Also had best in show winners. We've also been involved in animal welfare, in conjunction with the local vet and newspaper, we had a program where we would re home lost and abandoned dogs. So don't try and make out that we're not experienced.

The breeder stopped talking to you, therefore it's not my place to discuss it with you. Perhaps if you were on better terms, you could try asking the breeder again? I doubt it would get anywhere given the unjust remarks you said about them since.

"Posted 20 September 2012 - 10:14 PM
I wouldnt trust this breeder at all. There is a fair amount of doubt with both dogs." - Now not once this year did anyone say the mother was in doubt, as you can see, I showed you posted it at sep,2012. The pedigree, showing the female is spirit of the wolf has been up for years now. So ok, you may not of directly lied. But you made that statement because of what people falsely said years ago before the pedigree was known. I wouldn't trust anyone who doesn't bother to check their facts before they attempt to defame someone.

You aren't in a position to judge the health and temperament of my dogs, you know nothing about them and never will. But given the way you talked about your "wolfdog" eating your TV, there seems to be something strange and dangerous going on there. I was expecting my dogs to be hard, but they're intelligent and learn extremely quickly. Not hard dogs to own at all...maybe that's just my dogs in particular. They're not as devoted to working for you as a GSD, they get bored and will do there own thing after a while, but teaching them is easy.


"Im not trying to rain on your parade so to speak" Ha, what are you even on about?



"You dont have any first hand knowledge of my dog or her breed. How can you when you have never met one or met my dog. " I don't claim to have first hand knowledge of your dog, like you do with mine. But I know that Czechoslovakian Shepherds are German Shepherds. As for her breed, I know a lot about German Shepherds, so yes I do know about the breed.

It's funny how you think this breeder was registered, when they hadn't even bothered to get the breed recognised here in Australia. Probably because its impossible to register a non existent breed.


Like I said ask anyone here what they think of your dog, and they'll most likely agree with me.

Last edited by Wolves; 13-12-2012 at 22:34.
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Old 14-12-2012, 00:51   #160
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Here are some more quotes. My last reply on DOL - Incase anyone is interested its been confirmed (as you can read for yourselves) that the sire and grandsire are non registered which given there has been crosses out of that kennel before is a bit suspicious.

I will leave you all to make up your own minds

And here is one from you - The sire was not registered, neither was one of his parents but after that, all are registered. If you'd looked you would of seen VDH numbers. Seriously how do you think a dog is a mix, when both parents are registered?

- When I say both parents, im not refering to my dogs.

So you can use the term parents in a general manner but you use it as some kind of evidence else where?
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