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Breeding Information about breeding, selection, litters.... |
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25-04-2007, 09:10 | #61 | |
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But as interesing only Carpatianian wolf, not Arctic or Mexican,
Wolfdog have Carpatian wolf blood and we mas see this wolf hair, not others wolfs. Quote:
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25-04-2007, 10:11 | #62 | |||||
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I still think, despite the genetic debates here, that if Art carries the gene for long hair, and so does Asta, it is not wise to mate them together again. If I was owner of both of those dogs, I´d stop breeding Art and I´d search male from different blood for Asta, perhaps of Slovak origin. And I would not consider myself ostrich at all. |
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25-04-2007, 16:55 | #63 | |
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But "you shouldn't speak if you don't have produced almost 100 puppies ! "
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26-04-2007, 00:08 | #64 |
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I think there should be also mentioned one thing. There is a different quality of the coat too. The Czechoslovakian wolfdog should have a hard coat which is similar to goat coat and it shouldn't be soft. There is even a fault on bonitation card for dogs with too soft hair but most of the judges do not pay much attention to it. This is very important when we have a dog with long hair because this characteristics is much more visible. This would be interesting if the collie-like dogs still have a typical hard coat like normal CzWs - I bet they haven't.
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10-04-2010, 23:43 | #65 | |
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Science. 2009 Oct 2;326(5949):150-3. Epub 2009 Aug 27. Coat variation in the domestic dog is governed by variants in three genes. Cadieu E, Neff MW, Quignon P, Walsh K, Chase K, Parker HG, Vonholdt BM, Rhue A, Boyko A, Byers A, Wong A, Mosher DS, Elkahloun AG, Spady TC, André C, Lark KG, Cargill M, Bustamante CD, Wayne RK, Ostrander EA. National Human Genome Research Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD 20892, USA. Abstract Coat color and type are essential characteristics of domestic dog breeds. Although the genetic basis of coat color has been well characterized, relatively little is known about the genes influencing coat growth pattern, length, and curl. We performed genome-wide association studies of more than 1000 dogs from 80 domestic breeds to identify genes associated with canine fur phenotypes. Taking advantage of both inter- and intrabreed variability, we identified distinct mutations in three genes, RSPO2, FGF5, and KRT71 (encoding R-spondin-2, fibroblast growth factor-5, and keratin-71, respectively), that together account for most coat phenotypes in purebred dogs in the United States. Thus, an array of varied and seemingly complex phenotypes can be reduced to the combinatorial effects of only a few genes.
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11-04-2010, 11:47 | #66 |
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I did not notice that there is such a thread. But the difference between pure wolves and wolfdogs is that the wolves have "long" coat - in wintertime - and the wolfdogs in the same time do not have. So the "miky lin" is from that point a well done breed because she is in line with wolves.
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11-04-2010, 14:00 | #67 | |
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Please, show me at least ONE wolf with this coat. And sorry, if your wolfdogs have the same coat lenght in the winter, so they're really outstandard, when even mine wolfdogs (wich not pass for a strong winter) have a huge change in the coat lenght and density.
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11-04-2010, 16:48 | #68 |
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Nebulosa, he looks like veeery wolfish collie
Monika, "Long hair is exterier problem" are your words. Thank you for these genes from Russia... |
12-04-2010, 12:41 | #69 |
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Unfortunately common, some "very experient experts who breed for love" loves to send the "best dogs" to countries where the breed is only starting, principaly when the people interested does not know much about wolfdogs and can be mistaken easly with the small talk of "this is the best pup of the best and most interesting litter at orign country!", I think I listened this history repeatedly at least 2 times with the same "breeder".
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12-04-2010, 12:48 | #70 |
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Oh, Nebulosa, I thought somebody must be responsible for the breed's future at us. Second CsW litter in Russia is going to be from X-Wild Planet z Molu Es and Brian z Reviru Vlku (first litter was from Rose PDL and someone Baron of unclear origin). These dogs were sent as pair for breeding I don't know, may be some people from Czech Republic still hate Russia like USSR... but to do it in clear mind... mmm... impossible.
Ah, yes. I'm not jelous. I have 2 males. Last edited by Morian; 12-04-2010 at 12:51. |
12-04-2010, 14:13 | #71 | ||
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Morian, I am very curious about your words but cannot have an opinion without knowing better (i leave others to have an opinion without knowing much...it's typical for them)
X-Wild Planet I think has nothing to do with Induk so, I do not understand your words Quote:
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Does the X litter Z Molu es appear to you as a bad litter for some reason? Or is it just that the breeder is not on you "I like" list and so anything she does is bad? About long hair, if a Male such as MIKY was a bad male because some of his puppies (a very small percentage) were long haired, then his son INDUK had a higher percentage always with long hair, if you read carefully in this thread it seems ART is a carrier of the "long hair" gene. ART is son of Cira and Jerry Lee. Maybe Jerry Lee is carrier of "long hair" gene too...and his brothers AND SISTERS.. It's easy to make a witch hunt, all you have to do is start...it never ends!
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12-04-2010, 15:11 | #73 | |
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I was just trying to understand, so you are saying that Monika, breeder of X Wild Planet, sent a "couple" for breeding in Russia, X Wild Planet and Brian z Reviru Vlku? From what I see no brother of litter Brian has long hair and, I repeat once more, number of sons of Miky with long hair is very very low in percentage, also if you consider the fact that same genetics (mikyxfendy) has been with 7 litters giving 33 puppies (statistically it's one of the highest number of CSW coming from same father and mother of all CSW history, record is Chlouba de Wolf ArimminumxEDGARWOLF) and from what I know only 2 dogs where long haired. I am no expert but I assume that 2 puppies on a total of 33 from same female and 163 all together doesn't make a stud such a risky animal. I suppose it is not Miky himself but the combination of his genes with other females with same recessive genes that "could" give longer hair, I don't think it's the worst thing that can happen in the csw world...but surely I'm wrong, I'm not as experienced as others who write in this thread...
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12-04-2010, 15:23 | #74 |
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Well, procentage and potential possibility are different things, I think.
And. Breeding is not just a way of making $. Breeding is hard work. Every Breeder must eliminate risks of exterier, health and other defects. Is it normal? Yes! But I can't understand some ideas... When genetics, breeding rules etc are not the keynote, then what? Business plan? Or what else? Last edited by Morian; 12-04-2010 at 15:46. |
12-04-2010, 15:39 | #75 | |
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Or maybe is it you mean the actual result doesn't necessarily reflect the genetic probability statistic? Just thought of that now. |
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12-04-2010, 15:40 | #76 |
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...as for potential, in that case you should NOT ever breed... all dogs can give something bad "potentially"
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12-04-2010, 16:05 | #77 | ||||
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But... I listened the same talk when I was searching for a dog, and even today when I sent mails as "new owner" I receive the same replie of some breeders. Quote:
About the X litter, I never mentionated it, but if you want my opinion about, I see nothing special in this litter, no interessing blood, mostly not nice dogs with exeption of Xantina, that looks like follow better the standard. Its nothing personal, even because I never talked with Monika more than by this forum, but I really put in my account the work that the person is doing for the breed before add or took out it of my "list" of " I like" If she breed again a nice dog as she already did, a nice litter with interessing blood, I will pop praising it because I will realy get interested, but its not the case at the moment, so, its my hope for the future. Quote:
I have no kennel blindness, realy dont bothers me the possibility of my dog have the genetic of long hair (including, Hero Oskar dor, by Argo z Prizrak karpat probably have it as some of his pups have longer coat) if born a atipical dog with atipical characteristics, I will only give him neuthered for a prepared owner and warn people who wants to breed with the tipical puppies of this litter about the problem, so dont need to born more puppies with this problem again. But, as I expected it didnt happened and I have pups with very tipical coat, but more adaptated for our crazy climate. its interesting that at start Monika wrote that coat is not a lethal thing, she is not wrong as its not an lethal gene, but by other side the coat quality for me is very important, as my dogs should be able to be protected of the cold of winter (yes, where I lives the temperature can be negative but its the easy and ridiculous part for a breed wich comes from europe) and the extreme hot of the summer (this year arrived at 45C with much higher termic sensation, terrible, so its what we can say that need a real adaptaton by the dog) , my wolfdogs and their descendents have not problem, but I'm afraid if a dog like the one of the first photo would be able to survive at our summer with such coat. Quote:
Try to change your mind about it, does not exist perfect dog, does not exist 100% healty line, the only way for we improve the breed is talking openly about the problems, mostly of atipical litters and even problems appeared because the breeder was not warned about the problems the blood he used could pass, who suffer with it in the end are the inoccents, the puppies. Our biggest problems is exactly the famous "kennel blindness", and this talk of "My dog is perfect/my breeding is perfect and who do not agree with me is witch hunting me" really bothers me. About the topic name, sorry, it was a very old topic, I nor even seen the name of it now I will change
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12-04-2010, 16:07 | #78 | |
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Massimo, breeding means selection.
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12-04-2010, 19:47 | #79 |
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Sorry having excavated this thread , I just wanted you know we cannot say "do carry the gene for long hair", we already knew from experiences that this did not work like this, but now we deeper know why.
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