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Breeding Information about breeding, selection, litters....

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Old 23-01-2010, 15:39   #1
z Peronówki
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Default Ugly feminine males...

There was similar topic some time ago... But I would like to refresh it....with a new post showing how fals are the "good advices" of some "experts"....


Long time ago I planned first litter of Jolly. I choosed a Slovak male for her... After I told about my plans one of the Czech "gurus" I heard that it is totally stupid idea, that the dog is ugly, with bad weak bones and EXTREMLY femine expresion. Simply said: it is a horrible, untypical CzW male...

Of course I didn't paid a lot attention to this words... Unfortunately the dog died before I was able to use him (later I covered my female with his son).

But back to the topic - last week Pavol uploaded some photos if this dog. I will show them to you so you can personally see how far is in some cases the reality from this what some so called "experts" are saying...

Here is the "ugly feminine" CzW male:







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Old 23-01-2010, 16:48   #2
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wow, he´s beautiful!!! such nice head!
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Old 23-01-2010, 17:37   #3
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from the foto he looks very nice, not weak at all, specially in pic where he runs.
And of course wonderful head (from pics)
Can we know who he is?
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Old 23-01-2010, 17:53   #4
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I agree to all three posts before ... for my opinion he´s on this pictures an excellent looking dog.

With best greetings from Germany
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Old 23-01-2010, 18:50   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo View Post
Can we know who he is?
Not very hard to find. http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1150
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Old 23-01-2010, 21:02   #6
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Nice head, but the body is femine! No wolf would look like this...

Christian
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Old 23-01-2010, 21:37   #7
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Wonderfull dog, nice bones strong but wolfish, nice body, nice head, long legs and masculine!
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Old 23-01-2010, 22:10   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina View Post
Nice head, but the body is femine! No wolf would look like this...
We are talking about EUROPEAN Wolves. Not Canadian or American...

I saw MANY REAL EUROPEAN Wolves looking like this.... PURE Wolves...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina View Post
No wolf would look like this...
You know what - when I was a child I didn't believe there can be black and white wolves. Later I realizedthat there are... But such Wolves even now do not look WOLFISH for me... No EUROPEAN WOLF 'would look like this'....
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Old 23-01-2010, 22:53   #9
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Bux was the best csw what I have ever seen !
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Old 24-01-2010, 00:20   #10
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Karpathian wolf male, in winter coat

both males, both wintercoat
[IMG]file:///C:/DOKUME%7E1/Ina/LOKALE%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG]

Bux in sommercoat

For me for a wolfdog that is close enough, but there are experts and "experts"

Ina
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Old 24-01-2010, 02:17   #11
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Really, incredible Bux.
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Old 24-01-2010, 02:53   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiku View Post
Really, incredible Bux.
It is not hard to do in a similar manner of inbreeding to further "Bux"
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/p1150-5.html

I saw him personaly at these events, and my impression of him was "inconsistent."
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/shows/221.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/shows/73.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/shows/86.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/shows/201.html

Lovely type. But not act never as a truly healthy individual. And this is important for me. We breed long-lasting beautiful and powerful animals or dogs for disposable? I mean " show dogs " ?
I do not know how many lived Bux, not has many descendants. But some of his grandchildren is possible to find and so be "breeding" !

Good luck

Witch Soukupová
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Last edited by Monika; 24-01-2010 at 02:56.
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Old 24-01-2010, 19:00   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanninadina View Post
Nice head, but the body is femine! No wolf would look like this...

Christian
Hmmmm, Margo here is one of the "experts" of the breed

But sorry to say, it is not a wolf Christian It´s a dog and a recognised dogbreed

This is one of my favorite CsV at the moment and I do not think he looks like a wolf neither but still he is a nice looking dog !!!



Best regards / Mikael
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Old 24-01-2010, 23:27   #14
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Default dog with bitch type head

hey maybe you should go to speck savers?????? the first photo in this thread of the CWS looks very very like a bitch, not an ugly dog by any means but come on have a look at photos of males on this site then look at this dog, maybe people dont want to speak against sender of the post?///// I have bred dogs for 35yrs and before i get all the usual feedback from all the usual people on the site i do know that a male dogs head should look like a male this dogs head definately does not. He is also fine of bone,,,,,
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Old 24-01-2010, 23:39   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post

This is one of my favorite CsV at the moment and I do not think he looks like a wolf neither but still he is a nice looking dog !!!


Hi, me too , i like this dog !!!!!
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Old 25-01-2010, 07:36   #16
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Who knows how old was Bux on fotos? I think it is important to know it if we want write some our view.
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Old 25-01-2010, 09:05   #17
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this is the question an expert will ask. As far as I know still younger than 4 what means for a Slovakian male not fully developed.
As everybody knowing the breed out of this times will remember, did the dogs out of this kennel live under incredible circumstances only a very healthy and a very lucky dog could survive, they are somehow a good example that imbreeding isn´t such a big problem for a short period when the dogs you breed with are healthy and the selection is very hard. Some of the low imbreeding dogs out of this time on the other side show that a low imbreeding factor isn´t the garantee for healthy dogs if this is the only factor you care for.
As far as I remember some of the dogs from this breeder had to be rescued in the Czech republic out of the ground of a friend of the breeder, living all of them together in a big house, dead dogs lying amongst the living. I am not 100% sure if this have been Krotkovsky´s dogs, Pavel was the one who published the story of those dogs. But for sure many dogs of this breeder of this time simply disappeared and they didn´t simply dye of normal health problems.

No dog out of such circumstances will present himself well on occasions like an exhibition.
If we simply take a look on the first link we will find as the winners of this show those dogs
best male: http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d81.html

I never saw a European Wolf looking like that and being that heavy.
We know from other breeds that selecting on a heavy type will automatically bring health problems, like everything leaving the wolf model.

But even if we leave all of this out of mind it is a good example because breeding is not just mating the best of shows or the best dogs of this year. Even if the dog may have been too light (still in my opinion better for the dog than too heavy) it would have been a perfect match for a bitch with not so long legs, a bit too heavy bones, a broad chest, long ears etc. And in such cases an "outcross" on a highly inbred but healthy male may give great benefit to a line.
And a good breeder and expert is able to see the potential of a dog even if it doesn´t present him well on occasions like exhibitions and knows that you can not really judge from photos.

But anyway, it is a dog not a wolf and all real experts that have seen him I know say without doubt that it was one of the best males they ever saw if not the best.

Ina

Last edited by michaelundinaeichhorn; 25-01-2010 at 09:39. Reason: difficulties in writing English
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Old 25-01-2010, 12:48   #18
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Originally posted by Ina:

"best male: http://www.wolfdog.org/ces/dbase/d81.html

I never saw a European Wolf looking like that and being that heavy.
We know from other breeds that selecting on a heavy type will automatically bring health problems, like everything leaving the wolf model.

But even if we leave all of this out of mind it is a good example because breeding is not just mating the best of shows or the best dogs of this year. Even if the dog may have been too light (still in my opinion better for the dog than too heavy) it would have been a perfect match for a bitch with not so long legs, a bit too heavy bones, a broad chest, long ears etc. And in such cases an "outcross" on a highly inbred but healthy male may give great benefit to a line.
And a good breeder and expert is able to see the potential of a dog even if it doesn´t present him well on occasions like exhibitions and knows that you can not really judge from photos."

I completely have the same meaning to this, especially to the sentence of Ina what i have put in fat letters above !

This is very correct.
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Old 25-01-2010, 13:43   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solowolf View Post
the first photo in this thread of the CWS looks very very like a bitch, not an ugly dog by any means but come on have a look at photos of males on this site then look at this dog, maybe people dont want to speak against sender of the post?/////
It depend on "what is a CzW MALE for you". What is a STANDARD - "0" pooint on the scala.
If it is a male dog described int he standard as TYPICAL or a male which has heavy untypical head with wrinkles, hanging lips and eyelids and wrong proportions of the head.

YES, I agree with you that compared to some CzW males Bux is lookong like a female.
NO, "VERY MASCULINE" males are for sure not untypical representants for this breed. For me BUX is a nice Wolfdog, the heavy "VERY MASCULINE" males are just untypical. If you do not believe - compare theit look with the breed standard...
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Old 25-01-2010, 16:22   #20
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Question Hmmmmmmmm

I think the problem is that people really do not read the standard at all or they interpret it the wrong way…This is a part of what the FCI standard say under GENERAL APPEARANCE :
"Movement, coat texture, colour of coat and mask, similar to the wolf."

As I read, it say "SIMILAR" and similar do not mean, has Exactly to look like a wolf !!!

And this is a part of what it say under Coat:
"COLOUR: Yellowish-gray to silver-gray with a charateristic light mask. Light hair also on the underside of the neck and the forechest. Dark gray colour with light mask is permissible."

Yes it say ".Dark gray colour with light mask is permissible."

Now I’m no expert on the standard nor the breed, but I have a feeling owners and breeders are over interpret how much CsV must be light in colour and look like a wolf !!!

Please add more info or correct me if i´m wrong…

But if they are to look exactly like a wolf, I have a feeling they are to look like the Carpatian Wolf


 
 
Very best regards / Mikael
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