British Kennel Club Recognition

[pixie]

Originally Posted by hedeon

I think info about most of meetings you can find here, in this site.
Here is event calendar:
http://www.wolfdog.org/site/calendar

may be not very helpful as just realised names of events are written mostly in languages different than english.

can anyone translate

[Tazer]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

In the beginning of our club, we created a "Code of Ethics" and also a set of club bylaws. These can be used to oust people from the club (they were both finalized about a month ago, so we haven't had to enforce them yet). Although we haven't had the problem of mix-breeding here (well, maybe some Tamasken "variation" people, but they have no interest in our club or breed), we have had some other issues...but everyone is given a clean slate at this point, since there were no legally binding club documents prior to ours for the breed. If anyone messes up now, and we are aware of it, they will have their membership terminated...though unfortunately, this has no effect on their relationship with AKC.

At our core we have a board of 5 members who make decisions on voting people out, and takes on judicial duty if people violate the code of ethics or bylaws. We also have different types of membership - full voting rights are only given to adult CSV owners residing in the US, but non-owners as well as owners/non-owners can have non-voting membership and be fully involved with club activities. We plan to have a health testing scheme as part of our code of ethics, as well as a mandate on no cross-breeding. Maybe it is worth it for your club to look to other clubs (as we did!) - both CSV clubs in other countries, as well as "successful" (in terms of ethics and health) parent breed clubs within the UK. I would think the KC might be of some use also once they realize that there are serious people who are in things for the right reasons.

Here are links to our club documents, if they might be of some help:
http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/codeofethics.html
http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/...nstitution.pdf

Thanks for that info.

I know that the beauceron breeders/owners/enthusiasts in the uk have only had their breed club up and running a year or 2. Perhaps they would be good people to contact for more info/advice on the process?


Taz

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

In the beginning of our club, we created a "Code of Ethics" and also a set of club bylaws. These can be used to oust people from the club (they were both finalized about a month ago, so we haven't had to enforce them yet). Although we haven't had the problem of mix-breeding here (well, maybe some Tamasken "variation" people, but they have no interest in our club or breed), we have had some other issues...but everyone is given a clean slate at this point, since there were no legally binding club documents prior to ours for the breed. If anyone messes up now, and we are aware of it, they will have their membership terminated...though unfortunately, this has no effect on their relationship with AKC.

At our core we have a board of 5 members who make decisions on voting people out, and takes on judicial duty if people violate the code of ethics or bylaws. We also have different types of membership - full voting rights are only given to adult CSV owners residing in the US, but non-owners as well as owners/non-owners can have non-voting membership and be fully involved with club activities. We plan to have a health testing scheme as part of our code of ethics, as well as a mandate on no cross-breeding. Maybe it is worth it for your club to look to other clubs (as we did!) - both CSV clubs in other countries, as well as "successful" (in terms of ethics and health) parent breed clubs within the UK. I would think the KC might be of some use also once they realize that there are serious people who are in things for the right reasons.

Here are links to our club documents, if they might be of some help:
http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/codeofethics.html
http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/...nstitution.pdf

Thank you very much for your valuable advice. In fact, the club should have some internal rules. I also had a similar idea with five members constituting the core of the club, or "council". Definitely there is no reason reinvent the wheel again, the organization of the club can be ‘borrowed’ from others. In any case, we don’t need to hurry. I personally believe that if the CSV is to become a proper breed in the UK, it can happen only on the basis of new dogs from Europe, with FCI pedigrees. And we would have to wait a bit to appear more of them in this country. Then you have to wait even more if someone would start to breed. Like Rona said, a minimum of 2-3 years. And I also think this is a long term operation.

Regarding the club, in my opinion, such club's tasks would include close cooperation with breeders and clubs from Europe, as well as the community of this forum. We will not get very far without the cooperation with European breeders. We need to rebuild their trust. And I don’t know how we could regain that, if the club would promoted the further mating males and females from kennels before classified by them as "uncertain". I know that because of these words I will be very disliked by many of the owners / breeders in the UK, and I apologize for that, but just as I found it too risky to buy a puppy from one of the breeders in this country, same (if I would ever to be a breeder) I would consider risky mating my CSV with another SCV coming from one of these breeders. Many may simply be unaware of it, are sure their CSV is pure just because their breeder said so. For the same reasons I would hold back from breeding with the dogs in pedigree of which is Crying Wolf or de louba Tar. I do not know too much about the problems with these kennels, but such problems exist, so why unnecessarily risk, when this can be easily avoided. Perhaps there could be performed some sort of test (DNA?)in both cases? And dogs that would passed, could be considered "breedable" again. Then it would be possible to ask administrators of this forum to change a breeding status of such dog in database. Unfortunately, I think that rules should be very strict and rigorous, mainly because of the past, and I would think so on even if I was the owner of one of the dogs from British kennels.

Also, I do not know how the breeders from Europe could to "unban" UK, while in the British club forum would be the same man who was one of the reasons for banning UK in first place.

I would like to stress once again that these are just my personal thoughts based on my current understanding of the topic. Hope that I managed to explain myself clearly regardless of my poor english.
Now you can throw the stones

[tupacs2legs]

......club aside,

i have no reason to doubt my dog is a csv just because he doesnt have an fci piece of paper,as far as i am aware there is one dog of 'de loubar tar' in his pedigree and he has not been marked as a suspect(correct me if i am wrong )

i have met both my dogs parents,and even though my breeder breeds mixes she has always been open an honest about what she does and not been secretive about it in anyway,(and that is not meant to be an excuse for crossing ,just fact)in all the years she has owned/bred her csv's ,Tupac was from only her 2nd pure litter!(she has only had 4 i believe)i had known her from before(a few years) regarding a long story about a 'rescue' (not wolfdog)and the trust i have in her started then,as she was the only one that told the truth in the matter and actually helped!

i do feel it would be easier to use fresh fci imported stock....but i think its a little unfair to the pure dogs that are here....i do understand though

i love my dog no matter what,and love him no matter what he is........... but i do believe him to be a csv(albeit without papers)untill proven wrong.

now go on...throw the stones at me

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

...i do feel it would be easier to use fresh fci imported stock....but i think its a little unfair to the pure dogs that are here....i do understand though

i love my dog no matter what,and love him no matter what he is........... but i do believe him to be a csv(albeit without papers)untill proven wrong.

now go on...throw the stones at me

I wont. I know it is unfair. I feel really bad to even think the way I have described . I believe you are right. But no other way to separate CSV from crosses comes to my mind. And whoever will be trying to establish this breed in this country, and will have purity of breed in mind, will have to do it somehow. This is really tough... Maybe other people will have other ideas.

P.S. Rona was right, that really looks similar to situation in Poland when Solidarnosc took over communists.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by hedeon

P.S. Rona was right, that really looks similar to situation in Poland when Solidarnosc took over communists.

Especially, there were also some "good" communists and quite a few very corrupted anti-communists...

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by Rona

Especially, there were also some "good" communists and quite a few very corrupted anti-communists...

Exactly....

[GalomyOak]

It's a shame that the original dogs that were imported from mainland Europe were not DNA profiled (I think at least one has passed away?). In that way, you could collect DNA back to the original dogs. I have encouraged AKC to put a mandate on AKC profiling all CSVs that are bred. Currently, it must only be done for dogs that are imported, multiple-sire, or AI. I would like to see the same for all natural coverings of domestically bred dogs as well.

It has taken about 3 years to get to the stage that we are at in the US (26 club households, 3 registered litters on the ground, acceptance by AKC as an official club this past month). We had our first "meeting" (more of a meet-up) in 2008, but most of those owners weren't too interested in being very involved with a club, and are not currently involved with our club (one owner has passed away). I think you will find this as well - many owners are happy to be just that, and choose not to be actively involved with a club, for a variety of reasons. It seems to be the breeders (with varying motives) and the "die-hards" who are the driving (and shaping) forces. Dialogue is the key element initially - a strong set of leaders is great to build knowledge, redirect/resolve disagreements, and to help people find their niche in the club. We are hopeful that we will have an "official" meeting (as well as a breed specialty show perhaps!) in 2012.

[jefta]

In my opinion there is only one way to rebuild british population-start all over again but rationally.

One very important fact-none responsible breeder will use progeny of dogs with no dokumented orgin! If they will be use in so small populacion as british csv in few years after recognition they will be ubiquitous in population and hole UK population will be useless for FCI breeders for ever.
Moreover, if breeder have choose between owner from FCI country or disappearing his blood because of mixing with no dokumented dogs will sold more promising puppies to FCI. For UK owners stay only puppies that nobody else won`t buy. Do you want to start importing future breeding dogs from this worst position

[tupacs2legs]

ok i know im naive but.....

the kennel club accepted the breed originally then withdrew it because of defra's stance,so was it a problem with the dogs themselves? i would of thought if they had granted it the paperwork was there,so surely its about showing the kennel club that defra was wrong and have themselves changed their minds

[pixie]

I believe if we dont start something soon, then people will continue to breed mixes or buy dubious bloodlines to breed ,and this britain verses europe thing will continue, its possible to start the club then start importing breeding stock if that is what is required, with perhaps the club sponsoring imports, and i believe my dog is pure, but if proven otherwise she will still be special to me.

and dont throw stones at me they hurt

[Murph]

I think the term strike while the iron is hot is approrpriae here!

[Shadowlands]

Go for it - you'll be amazed at the support there is for getting this going (some people like to keep silent until the ball is rolling ). After all, you have everything to gain and not so much to lose

Once things are in motion, more and more different bloodlines will be available to you all, which has to be a good thing for what you want to achieve xx

Pixie, Murph - can't agree more
tupacs2legs - I remember reading the same thing...

[hedeon]

Ok, I wrote it before, but will quote it again. This is one of requirements for KC recognition:

Total number of dogs of the breed in the UK
[ideally at least 20, preferably unrelated]
Copies of pedigrees of UK dogs – at least 3 generations

Then how many British pure CSV actually has official pedigrees?

[Maddie]

with that in mind though the KC had as good as registered the CsV as a breed before defra stuck their boot in. so there must still be at least 20 dogs with pedigree's in the UK, unless people have exported?

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by hedeon

Ok, I wrote it before, but will quote it again. This is one of requirements for KC recognition:


Then how many British pure CSV actually has official pedigrees?

Pedigree means family tree not registration document I thought,
U can see my dogs on here,only he and his mother are 'not registered'

we are not asking for the kc to recognise fci, we are asking them to recognise the csv... no?

If it was granted once and taken away because of defra...the kc must of had what they required to grant it in the first place.

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by Maddie

with that in mind though the KC had as good as registered the CsV as a breed before defra stuck their boot in. so there must still be at least 20 dogs with pedigree's in the UK, unless people have exported?

Yes, but first thing, it was 9 years ago, many things could happened through that time. Second, if I am not wrong, most of these dogs belonged to Mr Winder and his friend, as they introduced the breed in UK. But someone told me he is not interested in getting this breed recognized again. I don't know.

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

Pedigree means family tree not registration document I thought,

Hmmm... I thought they mean by this copies of documents confirming pedigree of the dog...

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

we are not asking for the kc to recognise fci, we are asking them to recognise the csv... no?

We are asking KC to recognize breed already recognized by FCI...

APPLICATIONS FOR RECOGNITION OF BREEDS

The Committee will consider an application for recognition of a breed once
there are specimens of it resident in the UK and the dog(s) are imported
from a country either having a Kennel Club with which there is a reciprocal
agreement or which has full membership of the F.C.I. or where there is a
Breed Club maintaining a Stud Book and acceptable to the Kennel Club.
Application for recognition and subsequent registration should be made in
the first instance to the Breed Standards and Stud Book Sub-Committee.

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

If it was granted once and taken away because of defra...the kc must of had what they required to grant it in the first place.

Yes, it may be the point. However, not registered mating was happening during these last eight years. And there was no club associated with the KC to keep a Stud Books or something like that. I think, in KC perspective dogs born in the UK during that period of time are appearing simply out of nowhere. All Kennel Clubs are all about registering litters. But I'm not entirely sure about all of that, so this morning I wrote an email to the KC regarding re-recognition of CSV... Now I'm waiting for a response. Fingers crossed.

If any one has some ideas, or thoughts about it, please share it. It may help...

[tupacs2legs]

YEs hedeon I guess we will see....I feel its a slight vendetta against my dog....4 litters in all these years is not 'litters appearing out of nowhere'

Its funny how its a problem because they are british dogs,so many things equal 'farce' abroad about these dogs but if its britain included its guilty until proven innocent....that and mere snobbery!!

[hedeon]

??? Layla, this is no vendetta, I promise. Just wrote how I think things can be seen from KC perspective. But what I know? I would like to have discussion here, I now I am probably wrong. Just want someone to tell "no, you are wrong, we can do it 'that' way, or another way". This no way mean I against something, or some one. Really.

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Well, this person just contacted me again, shouting that he read this topic and he feels I am writting about him. He states the his male is neutered and he is in fact looking for a purebred female for purebred breeding.

Well, if it is who I think it may be - he lied His wife has just posted on FB that the male is going to be neutered (no indication of when), yet he stated that this had already been done.

Why can't people be honest and open in their dealings with breeders - it is no wonder that the suspicion lingers over enquiries from the UK