Short coat defect

[Silvester]

I´m sorry again ,but the dog "Dacota" is looking on the "winter -picture" like the others in summer coat...

Originally poted by "Dacota":
"Maybe the photos doesn't show how it really is ..."

That might be - why you don´t make public here some more - and may be better - photos ?

[Dacota]

Well, I have not so much time to search in 6000 photos
I hope, you see this now,
here in winter coat:






and now with summer coat:





If you aren't agree, you must believe me or you have to come to visit me in wintertime

[Silvester]

Hey "Dacota"!

Thank`s for sending so quickly more photos first of all ! - You really have 6000 pictures of your dog ? Whaooo...I´m impressed!

Ok, on your new pictures difference can be seen better than in the first two ones, that´s right. It´s thick coat, but not very long.

Your dog has not so LONG winter coat like Emba or the dog of "GalomyOak" - and this might be caused by the reason you wrote in your first posting.( Not sleeping outside in winter time.)

But may be it´s caused also by genetics - just like what Margo has told before, it´s my experience too.
Some dogs get long AND thick hair in winter, others only thick but not long (or longER ). And some have completely lacked the ability to get a warm "winter-jacket"... but that´s more an exception for wolfdogs i think.

At last i want to tell you thank you for invitation and that of course i`d like to visit you in winter , if it´s not too far away from my place
- so where are you living exactly ? ( You can send me pm if you like .)

Bye- bye, see you

Silvester

[Dacota]

Originally Posted by Silvester

It´s thick coat, but not very long.

Yeah, that's right Well, I think I have maybe more than 6000 photos, because I make each year about 2000 photos from my dogs With a good camera, it makes very fun. (beside Dacota I have 2 other dogs )
So, it's not a secret where I live Exactly in the north from Berlin (part of Brandenburg). But - are you only talking English or maybe German, too?

[Silvester]

Good morning "Dakota"....

sure I´m speaking German also - I will send you pm in the afternoon, now i have to work.

See you , Silvester

[Vaiva]

Nice discussion
I am also interested, whan do your dogs shed the most?
Brukne lives inside and preferes sleeping in bed , but still has big difference between winter and summer coat. The strange thing is, that her coat usually looks best around... March. And she sheds hardest around August. At the moment she looks worse than these homeless dogs on the adds of animal shelters In August I was starting to think, whether I should keep vacum-cleaning the floor, or it is better to leave it as it is and wait for a natural felt carpet to form...

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I am also interested, whan do your dogs shed the most?
Brukne lives inside and preferes sleeping in bed , but still has big difference between winter and summer coat. The strange thing is, that her coat usually looks best around... March. And she sheds hardest around August. At the moment she looks worse than these homeless dogs on the adds of animal shelters In August I was starting to think, whether I should keep vacum-cleaning the floor, or it is better to leave it as it is and wait for a natural felt carpet to form...

This was exactly our experience with Tina and now with Lorka. She lives indoors, too. In January/February she was almost bald, had the thickest coat around April/May (with a nice collar) and is now finishing heavy shredding. I'm aware that by spending around 3 hrs per day in the cold weather she will never get as thick fur as dogs living outdoors.

But what matters more, in my opinion, is the the quality of the coat: she has hair of various length and quality, she never gets really wet in rain or snow (i.e. her undercoat is always dry and really dense in the 'winter edition'), I don't know how to call it technically, but the coat seems to clean itself. Unless she uses the "perfumes" we don't need to wash her at all, occassional brushing is enough to keep the fur in good condition.

Originally Posted by Rona

This was exactly our experience with Tina and now with Lorka. She lives indoors, too. In January/February she was almost bald, had the thickest coat around April/May (with a nice collar) and is now finishing heavy shredding. I'm aware that by spending around 3 hrs per day in the cold weather she will never get as thick fur as dogs living outdoors.

Do you and Vaiva possibly live in very climate controlled environments? If you keep it nice and toasty inside during winter and nice and cool inside during summer, that could account for the "backwards" coats. I know a few years back, we must have kept it really warm in our apartment, because Buddy (our husky) had SUCH a thin coat that winter that he became a huge baby about going out when it was super cold! haha The next year, we didn't keep it as warm and we made a point to take him on multiple long walks through the freezing winter. It only took a few times for him to build up his tolerance to the point where he could stand walking in -0F temperatures when we wouldn't even want to be out there! Now, if only I could get the same results some how for a summer coat.... His coat gets SO confused in the summer, between the hot, hot temperature outside and the nice, cool A/C, that he just continually sheds. I thought finally we were done with it for awhile, when he started blowing coat again! Hopefully this will be the last time until after winter...

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

But what matters more, in my opinion, is the the quality of the coat: she has hair of various length and quality, she never gets really wet in rain or snow

Also this coat makes it difficult to wash out all the smelly things out of it Because when you finally make it wet till the skin, the dog is too bored to stand any longer in the bath and tries to escape

O.T. The most terrible thing used as a perfume was a mushroom (don't know the scientific name, but it is called "wolf's mushroom" in simple language) - I washed her many times to take off the SMELL, but it came back every time Brukne got wet... for... about six months...

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Vicky

Do you and Vaiva possibly live in very climate controlled environments? If you keep it nice and toasty inside during winter and nice and cool inside during summer, that could account for the "backwards" coats.

Well... We live in a simple flat and we do not deside upon the temperature in winter It is just as it is I like it colder, but my orchids don't, so... we do not open the windows very often in winter And our home is not conditioned in summer
Having in mind, that last winter we had a temperature around 20 degrees celsium of cold for maybe two months (they say this winter will be even colder) and more than 30 degrees celsium of heat in summer (hate it, truly HATE)... Brukne should not be mixing it too much...

[hanninadina]

Hey Margo, I know what you mean. There are a few csw with long hair, like some people say, they look like Collie. These dogs I do not mean. There are of course a few who have "open" coat, but these you find in germany, poland, czech, slow, hungary, everywhere. I meant the csw in italy who have thick and long coat - not long like Collie, but like wolf. And there are more than in other countries!

For these good examples, you can not compare Dacota with Emba. Dacota has thick coat and I believe you can not even see the skin if you try to watch. This is like Myla has too. But Emba has wolfish coat, thick and long - I repeat, not Collie long. She got all the "wolf" genes, which are needed.

That Malamute and Siberian Huskys shed like wolves is very easy, because they have still wolf genes in them, like Prof. Dr. Robert Wayne from the University of California from Los Angles published this april. And that is for example why Basenji get only once a year in heat like wolves due, because they have wolf gene in them too, like Saluki and Chow Chow. One part of wolf genes is more for the coat (Mala, Husk) and the other for example the heat circle (Basenji, Saluki). Again, I do not talk about exceptions but about the average dogs from the mentioned breeds.

Christian

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Vicky

Do you and Vaiva possibly live in very climate controlled environments? If you keep it nice and toasty inside during winter and nice and cool inside during summer, that could account for the "backwards" coats. I know a few years back, we must have kept it really warm in our apartment, because Buddy (our husky) had SUCH a thin coat that winter that he became a huge baby about going out when it was super cold! haha

Well, we live in an old house and can control the temperature ourselves but I don't see much sense in suffering from the cold just to keep my dog beautiful What I found strange was that even though my csv was almost "naked" in January, she loved spending time outdoors in -25 C. She was running a lot and playing with other dogs (to keep warm?) but neither showed any signs of being cold nor wanted to go back home .

Also this coat makes it difficult to wash out all the smelly things out of it

Exactly!!!! A few weeks ago she gave herself a 'beauty bath' in something that looked like remains of wolves' feast. When she came running my husband joked that we could easily win a dogtrailing competition. Despite our efforts the echo of this smell still crops up from time to time

[Silvester]

Originally posted by "hanninadina":
"For these good examples, you can not compare Dacota with Emba. Dacota has thick coat and I believe you can not even see the skin if you try to watch. This is like Myla has too. But Emba has wolfish coat, thick and long - I repeat, not Collie long. She got all the "wolf" genes, which are needed."

Yeah,that´s right - and this was ONE reason why i choosed her as the mother and one puppy of her last litter ( kennel of Carlos Antonio - Lupus Ibericus )for becoming my new Csw !

Greetings from Silvester

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Second similar case is the "Husky" coat - some breeder selected dogs which have coat similar to the huskies - such dogs do not have long coat like "longhaired" Wolfdogs but thick and "standing" (the difference is mosty visible on the back legs). They look nice but also: such dogs do not shed properly and do not have typical "wolfish" coat...

As a breeder and owner of working Siberian Huskies (in Finland) I must say that there is a huge difference between the typical coat of a modern SHOW HUSKY and (original) working Husky. -The coat type you described above, belongs to the show type dogs. And is not (as my personal opinion) the correct coat type for a Northern Canine.
The working type Siberian Huskies (like all the other Northern Canines) have relatively rough and oily coats (rejecting water & dirt etc) and will develope very thick coats during the winter, when they grow the warm, "woolly" undercoats. In the spring they shed heavily (in another words; their coats "explode") when they "undress" the woolly undercoat, and they look half the size of the dog they were with the full coats. During the summer, they have (like wolves) only the rough (over*)coat.
*I'm sorry, I do not know if the term is correct, but I hope you understand what I mean

And the difference between the wintercoats of an indoor-living canine vs outdoor-living canine is obvious.
The animal will adabt to it's surroundings, and naturally: if kept inside, they would suffer if they'd had the same coats as the ones that live outside.
And vice versa.

Most CsV's and Saarloos wolfdog that I have met, has had shorter coat lengt than wolves have; -even during the winter in their full wintercoats.
Wolves actually have quite long coat length. If you mesure one full grown back hair of a wolf, it is almost the same length as the long haired GSD for example. -But the coat type is different form the LH GSD.

And one wolf trait that is missing from CsV's & SWH's is also the relatively long & thick hair inside the ears. If you look wolves ears (especially in wintercoat), they are small, round and very hairy inside and out!
Wolfdogs ears look similar to the East & West Siberian Laika or Swedish Jämthund; -bigger, sharper and less furry than wolves ears.

But what is interests me is that is is even the purpose/goal to get the CsV to look as wolfy as possible? I think that it is a beautiful breed just like it is, and has enough wolfy traits to be "wolffy", but also doggy traits to be reasonably considered as a breed of dog, -not a wolf.
Of course it is nice to have discussion about coat types too, but as my opinion, what is more important is to have serious discussion about the temperaments, and about ethical & responsible SELECTIVE breeding, and good ownership.

[Mikael]

I think this is intesresting to

"The summer coat is shorter and thinner, while the winter coat is longer and thicker. The coat consists of approximately 13000-16000 number of hair per 1cm2 depending on if its summer, winter or part of body. It’s coat can be compared to a German Shepherd’s, who onely has 1000-3360 per 1cm2 or a Siberian Husky who has around 1730-2160 per 1cm2"

Red fox 10800 hair / cm2

Does a Wolf have the same as a CsV 13´000-16´000 hair / cm2 ???

And way does Alaska-M and Husky has so vert few hair / cm2 ???

Artical obout dog hair >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/articles/103.html

Best regards / Mikael

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Does a Wolf have the same as a CsV 13´000-16´000 hair / cm2 ???

And way does Alaska-M and Husky has so vert few hair / cm2 ???

I read that article before and I was wondering the same thing..... if that's true, does that mean that CsV also shed about 6-7 times worse than Siberian Husky????

[Priska182]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I think this is intesresting to


Red fox 10800 hair / cm2

Does a Wolf have the same as a CsV 13´000-16´000 hair / cm2 ???

And way does Alaska-M and Husky has so vert few hair / cm2 ???

Artical obout dog hair >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/articles/103.html

Best regards / Mikael

It's really interesting because Karel Hartl and Jindrich Jedlicka wrote that wolf have 2 000 to 6 000 hair /cm2...

Takže jsou

vlci od váhy 25 kg do 80 kg, od 55 cm do 80 cm kohoutkové výšky, s protáhlou i krátkou hlavou, s hustotou srstí od 2 000 chlupu na 1 cm2 do 6 000 na 1 cm2, od bílé barvy srsti, až po cernou.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I read that article before and I was wondering the same thing..... if that's true, does that mean that CsV also shed about 6-7 times worse than Siberian Husky????

Wolfdogs shed very very very hard... I can not compare with huskies, but... Remember people near the dog playground, combing their huskies... It looked terrible, but... combing a wolfdog when one sheds seems like an endless work - no matter how long you comb, there are stil hair comming out

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by Mikael

I think this is intesresting to


Red fox 10800 hair / cm2

Does a Wolf have the same as a CsV 13´000-16´000 hair / cm2 ???

And way does Alaska-M and Husky has so vert few hair / cm2 ???

Artical obout dog hair >>> http://www.wolfdog.org/eng/articles/103.html

Best regards / Mikael

I find this very hard to believe. As a matter of fact I do not believe this is true. I would want to see some other studies on the same issue before I will take this seriously.
Why?
Because Chinchillas are known to have the highest fur density of any land animal with more than 20,000 hairs per square cm. Their fur is so dense that skin parasites (such as fleas) cannot live on one lest they suffocate. Whereas humans grow one hair from each follicle, a chinchilla has more than fifty hairs from a single follicle.

I hardly believe that wolfdogs (originating from German Shepherd & Wolf mixes) would suddenly develop remarkably larger hair density than it's ancestors have.
Unless someone can show me some serious studies that have been made on this issue, and maybe show that there have been some mutation or something, to make the hair density of a wolfdog so much bigger than any other canis lupus -sub species, I will not buy this.

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I read that article before and I was wondering the same thing..... if that's true, does that mean that CsV also shed about 6-7 times worse than Siberian Husky????

My Hronec shed like a GSD Maybe a bit more... But I think my female Rasty will shed like two GSD at least It´s just about 0-5´C here now and she looks like she is prepared for -20 ´C

Best regards / Mikael