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Old 12-01-2011, 13:15   #1
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Default Hungarian HD/ED results

Due to the fact that we receive more and more emails questioning the quality of the Hungarian HD results I decided to check the whole topic once again. I discovered that most of the results that were put into the database are results evaluated by private veterinarians. The Hungarian breeders claim that also such results can be considered as official by their kennel club. But at the same moment we are getting from them more and more "denunciations" about "suspicious" results of dogs from other Hungarian kennels...

Because of it I asked independent sources for true information and I get:
In Hungary there are actually two hip evaluation organizations or registries. The oldest is FDB (Független Diszplázia Bizottság – Independent Dysplasia Committee), the second is MKOE (Magyar Kisállat Ortopédiai Egyesület – Hungarian Small Animal Orthopedic Association).

I will clean up the database and leave there only results of dogs which are officially tested by these registries:
- FDB (http://www.fdb.hu/)
- MKOE (http://www.kisallatortopedia.hu/)
(results evaluated by private veterinarians will be removed).

I hope it will solve the problem and finally clean the mess.
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Old 12-01-2011, 22:25   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
(results evaluated by private veterinarians will be removed).

I hope it will solve the problem and finally clean the mess.
YES !!! I hope to

Good Work

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 14-01-2011, 18:12   #3
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I wonder how many Hungarian wolfdogs' HD/ED results will remain in the database after the modification...
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Old 14-01-2011, 22:34   #4
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Quote:
I wonder how many Hungarian wolfdogs' HD/ED results will remain in the database after the modification...
Non or at least the % of A/A result will bee very much less

Best regards / M
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Old 15-01-2011, 17:26   #5
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Egészséges Kutyákért Közhasznú Alapítvány
Független Diszplázia Bizottsága
FDB
Az FDB által regisztrált kutyák 1991-2008 A FDB 2008 augusztus 2-tól működését felfüggeszti és előre meg nem határozható ideig szünetelteti.
Indokolás:
A MEOE az FDB 17 éves működése alatt kiadott többezer FDB számot törölte az adatbázisából, illetve azokat HD:0 és HD:1 jelölésekké "konvertálta" át, mely módosítás lehetetlenné teszi a független szakbizottságunk által kiadott minősítések megkülönböztetését minden más úton szerzett diszplázia-eredménytől.
Tenyészadat-gyűjtést a hatályban levő állattenyésztési törvény alapján csak elismert tenyésztő szervezetek végezhetnek, illetve adhatnak rá megbízást. Az FDB vonatkozásában a törvény nem a Rtg.-felvételek bírálatát, hanem az internetes eredménylistánk vezetését tiltja a nem elismert MEOE származási lapjaival rendelkező kutyákról. A diszplázia minősítésekkel - beleértve az FDB-számokkal - való visszaélések visszaszorításában viszont pontosan az eredménylista nyilvánosságának lenne jelentősége.
Az FDB folytatná 17 éves jószolgálati munkáját amennyiben a tenyésztők igazodnak a jogszabályokhoz, vagy ha a jogszabályok módosulnak a tenyésztőkhöz, azaz törvényes lehetőség nyílna diszplázia-minősítések gyűjtésére és közzétételére, továbbá, ha azzal egyidejűleg a származási lapokon az FDB minősítések megkülönböztetők lennének az egyéni állatorvosi diszplázia igazolásoktól, illetve, ha a tenyésztőtársadalom igényt tartana állatorvosi bizottságunk országban egyedülálló és kiemelkedő 17 éves szakmai tapasztalatára, elfogulatlanságára, hitelességére.



Before you wrote something, would better to look after it . Translate the text. Shortly: FDB is not exist from 02.08.2008!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And I'm just wondering how could happen that a private site and their admins want to tell me what kind of rules shell I follow??? I'm just wondering how could this person question about the authentic of the official results???? Results what are accepted our klub, our kennelklub and FCI????????


It is not hurra Mikael....it is shame!!!!!


But as it a private site and lack of objectivity, you could do what you want ! But if you don't mind, as I breed in Hungary , I must follow the hungarian rules....and not yours.




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Old 16-01-2011, 02:23   #6
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Originally Posted by jasmine View Post
It is not hurra Mikael....it is shame!!!!!

But as it a private site and lack of objectivity, you could do what you want ! But if you don't mind, as I breed in Hungary , I must follow the hungarian rules....and not yours.

Edit
Sorry, but I only trust Official results ! Not results from private veterinarians...

Do you x-ray all your dogs at the same veterinarian ?
If yes... Way ? Is he good or are the result good ???

Example...

If he give you A/A. You will come back whit your next dog and he will make money... He give you A/A again and you will come back whit ALL your dogs + You recommend him to ALL your puppy buyer and friends... And he will make allot of money.

Do you see the problem and my point ???

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 15-01-2011, 17:26   #7
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Sorry to interrupt I'm just reading usually but I think for this subject I have to tell my opinion because of it's unfairness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
Because of it I asked independent sources for true information and I get:
In Hungary there are actually two hip evaluation organizations or registries. The oldest is FDB (Független Diszplázia Bizottság – Independent Dysplasia Committee), the second is MKOE (Magyar Kisállat Ortopédiai Egyesület – Hungarian Small Animal Orthopedic Association).

I will clean up the database and leave there only results of dogs which are officially tested by these registries:
- FDB (http://www.fdb.hu/)
- MKOE (http://www.kisallatortopedia.hu/)
(results evaluated by private veterinarians will be removed).
Well, the 'independent source'-s information is pretty outdated as you can see on their webpage the FDB has stopped its operation in 2008.. As far as I know both the MEOE and FCI accepts those 'private veterinarians' results. So I can't really understand this step of you. Honestly it doesn't really matter for me because I'm only an owner of a wolfdog and won't ever breed them I just love those dogs. But it seems to be really unfair to make this decision ex post facto. I think it would be much better to accept from now (for example 1st february 2011) only the associations results you trust. Noone will pay once more for the test and noone will stress their dogs once more because of someone's unproven suspicion. Or is there any evidence you didn't wrote about?
Quote:
I hope it will solve the problem and finally clean the mess.
I think such a step won't solve anything but will make unfriendliness which won't make any good for the breed we all love.

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Old 17-01-2011, 13:40   #8
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Originally Posted by Woockie View Post
As far as I know both the MEOE and FCI accepts those 'private veterinarians' results. So I can't really understand this step of you. Honestly it doesn't really matter for me because I'm only an owner of a wolfdog and won't ever breed them I just love those dogs. But it seems to be really unfair to make this decision ex post facto. I think it would be much better to accept from now (for example 1st february 2011) only the associations results you trust. Noone will pay once more for the test and noone will stress their dogs once more because of someone's unproven suspicion. Or is there any evidence you didn't wrote about?
In the fact all Hungarian results we get last time come from MKOE. At the moment only two breeders still make "private" x-rays - all other Hungarian owners and breeders check their dogs by MKOE. And exactly the Hungarian owners complained about it at most saying that some breeders in their country have their "own" vets who evaluate the x-rays of their dogs VERY MILD.

Also people from abroad complained exactly about the "private" x-rays - some of them "verified" them by their own official vets in their countries and the new results they get were worser or much worser than the "private" Hungarian result. At the same time NOBODY questioned the results given by MKOE.

And in Hungary the differences are also visible - threre were two dogs checked by the "private-official" vets and they get HD-A and HD-B. The dogs were checked again by MKOE and their results were: HD-C and HD-D.
I hope you see the problem.

I think the changes will be not bad for Hungarian owners and breeders. On the contrary - it will stop questioning the Hungarian results and stories that you can not take Hungarian results seriously.
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Old 17-01-2011, 14:06   #9
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As I know only two results were send from MKOE...it is funy , that you are talking breederS...as it is only one breeder, who has at that moment two young females (both from me) ...and she send the xrays to MKOE,because the vet in her region hasn't got right to give official certification!!!!

The problem you wrote is about ONE CASE with one female......this is the case what Woockie mensioned . So it is not about the validity of certifications!!!!!!

"I think the changes will be not bad for Hungarian owners and breeders. On the contrary - it will stop questioning the Hungarian results and stories that you can not take Hungarian results seriously."

Will you pay us the chages to check again the dogs?

So at last but not least : Our klub will you send the list of veterinars we could use.Many of them are the members of MKOE, like my vet...and he is everything but not mild......

And my question : what is about those czeh and german dogs which has got polish results (as they got worth result in their own country)
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Old 17-01-2011, 15:37   #10
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Default Hd results

Dear Admin!

I would like to make clear the problem! I am the breeder, who had got the problem with hd result of my dog which was bought a hungarian kennel....more precisely not the results but the behaviour of the breeder who was not ready to admit his responsibility in this situation. BUT THIS KENNEL IS NOT THE KENNEL CRYING WOLF!
In the last year I bought 3 dogs from kennel Crying Wolf...the breeder gave quaraty for the dogs and I always give me advices when I have problems. Two of them were checked, both have perfect Hd...the last is 3 month old now.
I use MKOE, because in my region there are no vet who could give official certification......so I have two choice...travel more than 100km or make xray at my vet and send the xray to the commity. For me the last is the easier and cheapest way.
So now I don't understant why do you want to gibbet those breeder who has nothing to do with my problem. (as at that moment just her kennel...Crying Wolf is in the database)

Best Regards

Aniko Molnar
vom Hause Norky kennel
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Old 17-01-2011, 19:14   #11
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Don´t care about czech dogs, it is not your problem. If you have some questions, you can ask leader of czech club, you know his email adress:
[email protected]

(Is best protection to attacking of others?)
Don´t answer me, I need not it.
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Old 18-01-2011, 13:32   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine View Post
As I know only two results were send from MKOE...it is funy , that you are talking breederS...as it is only one breeder, who has at that moment two young females (both from me) ...and she send the xrays to MKOE,because the vet in her region hasn't got right to give official certification!!!!
No, you are wrong. It is not about TWO results from MKOE. Really: at the moment all results we get come from the official laboratory. Only you make still the x-rays by private vets. Also the kennel from abroad (Romania) who make x-rays of their dogs in Hungary evaluate the dogs by MKOE - nobody else use the private veterinarians.


Look, it is really not about fighting against anyone. Or better said it can finish all the fights (in and outside Hungary). I wrote you before (long time ago) that your x-ray results are questioned. And YOU questioned the results made by other Hungarian breeder. The fight is lasting for over one year. The only result is that the Hungarian x-rays are no more taken seriously and seen as "nothing worth". You know that using MKOE as the laboratory which evaluates the x-rays will close the discussions. And it is what was also my goal.

It is not only the topic of discussions by Wolfdogs but I also know it is the same by other breeds (vizsla) - many foreign breed clubs to not take the "private" x-rays seriously and accept only the official. The reason for it is the same.

Sure - we can put in the database all Hungarian results. But it will change nothing - still people will say that "Hungarian HD-A is similar to HD-C in Germany, France or Italy". Or we decide to use only the official evaluations from MKOE and everything will be fine.

From my point of view: at the moment the Hungarian owners / breeders /future breeders suffer because some breeders still make the private results and don't want to change their way of testing dogs even if the results are questioned. Questioned since YEARS.

Don't you think that exactly you as breeder should be FOR the changes (and not against them). Because it would make the Hungarian breeding credible. And would stop other breeders from criticizing your dogs.
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Old 18-01-2011, 14:01   #13
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Strange that you give examples vizslas...........for hungarian vizslas the hd is just offered, and they could you also use some "private" vets.
Yes, you are right...not two but 4 results are from MKOE, 3 of them about my dogs.
And at that moment 3 kennel breed csw in Hungary, and one use MKOE ,as Anikó wrote you.
For me also would be interesting which dog had "A" result in Hungary and than worth in Germany?I think you are not talking about csw.....

And in private please send me who has questins about my hd?? Those who has excelent dogs from me...or the other breeder who send fake result to your database?
To avoid these kind of critics, I send not just the certifications but also the xrays to the wolfdog database.
And I think it would be quite irreal request to make xray to my all dogs......especial to see that they have offsprings all over the world and they check in many other countries.

About attacking....my kennel always attacts year by year....with new and new thing...some of this things are generated by you.
my datas not updated, hungarian results not is the show database, my litters are not advertised etc. etc. etc......
I'm realy tied of this.
You are talking about fairness....but I'm sorry to say with me you are always unfair ....
You are insinuating me that my results are not right.....though you got even the xrays from me....
No worth to talking about my results: all are sign in the pedigree, accepted by MEO,FCI.You organize a private page, this page is not an organization which could make breeding rules.
Next time my litter "F" will be deleted just because I'm not blond?

And at last but least : make bad reputatin and asperition are well know concepts even in the International Law.
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Old 17-01-2011, 14:08   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
In the fact all Hungarian results we get last time come from MKOE. At the moment only two breeders still make "private" x-rays - all other Hungarian owners and breeders check their dogs by MKOE. And exactly the Hungarian owners complained about it at most saying that some breeders in their country have their "own" vets who evaluate the x-rays of their dogs VERY MILD.

Also people from abroad complained exactly about the "private" x-rays - some of them "verified" them by their own official vets in their countries and the new results they get were worser or much worser than the "private" Hungarian result. At the same time NOBODY questioned the results given by MKOE.

And in Hungary the differences are also visible - threre were two dogs checked by the "private-official" vets and they get HD-A and HD-B. The dogs were checked again by MKOE and their results were: HD-C and HD-D.
I hope you see the problem.

I think the changes will be not bad for Hungarian owners and breeders. On the contrary - it will stop questioning the Hungarian results and stories that you can not take Hungarian results seriously.
That's much more correct answer than any of Mikaels, so thanks.
Can you send me the specific information about that story? Of course if this is not public then in private to wolfdog (at) wolfdog (dot) hu. The dogs which were checked again and was not the same which before, the results who you don't trust etcetc. I'd like to solve this problem without any "collateral damage". We (as the team of wolfdog.hu, but hopefully I can talk in the name of most hungarian czw owners) don't want to be in bad relation neither to wolfdog.org nor to all the breeders who are correct.
A technical solution to this problem: what about if you don't remove those results but on the page you show them like: "HD: A (not by accepted vet)" or something like this. It won't really hurt anyone, but all the visitors can see that and make their own decision to trust the result or not. Important that the text in parenthesis should be not offensive to the breeders because there's no evidence they did anything wrong. It would be easy to implement, only one column in the db and a simple if(...){...} to the display layer of the code.
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Old 16-01-2011, 23:35   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
Due to the fact that we receive more and more emails questioning the quality of the Hungarian HD results I decided to check the whole topic once again. I discovered that most of the results that were put into the database are results evaluated by private veterinarians.

(results evaluated by private veterinarians will be removed).
To jmvdwiel and Woockie...

I look´s like it is not only me that thinks that results from private veterinarians are not to be considered official

It might be OK in Hungary, but this is the rest of the world

Best regards / Mikael
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Last edited by Mikael; 16-01-2011 at 23:37.
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Old 17-01-2011, 09:02   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
That is the problem !!!

And to me that is not a official result.

Mikael....in this case I'm sorry to say, but doesn't matter what are you thinking about. As I wrote : in Hungary are some vets, who has got right to make official xrays and certifications. These results are accepted by Hungarian kennelklub, other klubs all over the world and FCI!
All are higher organizations than you...........

To your other points: NO comment..........


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Old 17-01-2011, 09:58   #17
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hej Woockie,

Please write it also that the hungarian breeder you mensioned is NOT ME !!!!!!
I send my certifications together with xrays to the database!

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Old 17-01-2011, 10:12   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine View Post
Please write it also that the hungarian breeder you mensioned is NOT ME !!!!!!
I send my certifications together with xrays to the database!
Yup, that breeder who I wrote about is really not Edit but I don't want to mention any concrete names because the lack of any evidence in my hands.

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Old 17-01-2011, 10:09   #19
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Quote:
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It might be OK in Hungary, but this is the rest of the world
For your information FCI is the rest of the world not you. You seem to be a small dustmote like me. The Admin didn't answer yet to any of our posing. Hopefully he/she's persuadable with arguments and will change his/her mind. I'm waiting the Admins attitude. I hope the Admin will punish only the gulity.

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