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Breed standard & bonitations How typical CzW should look like, measurements and commentaries to the breed standard, information about bonitations and youth presentations....

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Old 24-11-2010, 22:40   #101
woland77
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It 'difficult to talk about behavior without an appropriate terminology in english, but i try.

Working dog must have a good hardening, not so strong, and not low.This hardness makes it possible to address the difficulties and maintain balance during stress. This feature is not synonymous with dominance.

Dog with good hardening, and high temperament (like a CZW) is not a simple dog to keep. Many time is a competitive dog, with other dog, but if well balanced is dog under controle; but if trained this dog can work (research work, not sport) free with other dog of the same sex (i have seen this on Czw too), because when he work, thinking only to work. This is strong dog. Not all handable, with good socialization dog have good hardening to be a work dog. For me is good if a CZW have good socialization, open caracter, handable...but is not sufficient. I want good hardening, and active temperament (fast reaction) too...work dog need this.


The great value of Utility & Defense discipline is not the test, ia not the sport, the score at day of competition. Training to IPO sequence (on cooperativity style) is most complete system to seen all natural features of caracter, he ability to overcome and develop into a situational stress, all related to the degree of cooperativity to the man. CZW never will be a god dog for IPO competion, i don't want this, but Utility & Denfense is a precious instrument for make real caracter selection, to workdog caracter.

Last edited by woland77; 24-11-2010 at 22:58.
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Old 24-11-2010, 22:48   #102
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Originally Posted by wolfin View Post
i think this are.... old GSD not malinois
yes this is Roland Starkenburg but he looks like malinois optimal bodybuild in my own opinion
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Old 24-11-2010, 22:49   #103
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yes this is Roland Starkenburg but he looks like malinois optimal bodybuild in my own opinion
real normal very nice dog i love this old type.
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Old 24-11-2010, 23:13   #104
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Originally Posted by jefta View Post
yes this is Roland Starkenburg but he looks like malinois optimal bodybuild in my own opinion
No, jefta, it is wrong direction..
Old GSD do not look like malinois.
Malinois look like old GSD.

It is why malinois are at the moment the best working dogs. And GSD are the best dogs guaranting work... for veterinarians.

Take a look on the "best GSD ever" - Horand:





Look on the Siegers ("World Winners")

1902


1903


1904


1905


1906 &1907


....



You can call them "malinois" but exactly this body made them so famous. And exctly because they were changed later to be a "parody" of the original they also lost their abilities to work as they were working before...
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Old 24-11-2010, 23:16   #105
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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
No, jefta, it is wrong direction..
Old GSD do not look like malinois.
Malinois look like old GSD.

It is why malinois are at the moment the best working dogs. And GSD are the best dogs guaranting work... for veterinarians.
.
I like judge from FCI I mas know standart and ... malinois now have moore similar standart to ours CSW, and GSD have very funny standart to read, when later You see whe this GSD are in reality
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Old 24-11-2010, 23:25   #106
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http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard...eed_Types.html

A nice pictorial run through of GSD and GSD crosses (including our CsV).

PS: But the information is weird. Says about old type GSD: "breeders have developed better dogs than this, and there is no good reason to return to the past."...

Last edited by yukidomari; 24-11-2010 at 23:27.
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Old 24-11-2010, 23:25   #107
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Originally Posted by wolfin View Post
I like judge from FCI I mas know standart and ... malinois now have moore similar standart to ours CSW, and GSD have very funny standart to read, when later You see whe this GSD are in reality
Daiva, as a judge you are very polite.... I will say it directly - todays GSDs are parody of their standard and parody of the idea of Stephanitz:

Valid GSD breed standard from 23.03.1991:
BACK: The upper line runs, without any visible break, from the set-on of the neck over the well defined withers and over the back very slightly sloping to the horizontal line.

Dogs:


(I have nothing against dogs looking like this one but they should be not called GSD but registred under another name... "New German Non-Shepherd Dog" or something like it...
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Old 24-11-2010, 23:28   #108
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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
Daiva, as a judge you are very polite.... I will say it directly - todays GSDs are parody of their standard and parody of the idea of Stephanitz:

GSD breed standard:
BACK: The upper line runs, without any visible break, from the set-on of the neck over the well defined withers and over the back very slightly sloping to the horizontal line.
Hmm.. You mas know with this we have a little problem - when speak with owners and breeders GSD now ALL ( about 95 %) say - this who are in photo are Stephanitz dreams this want and make Stephanitz
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Old 24-11-2010, 23:44   #109
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Originally Posted by yukidomari View Post
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard...eed_Types.html

A nice pictorial run through of GSD and GSD crosses (including our CsV).

PS: But the information is weird. Says about old type GSD: "breeders have developed better dogs than this, and there is no good reason to return to the past."...
Yes I like that link, I posted it here about two years ago
Now Utonagan is added to... Mostly I like the opporturnety to see all the photos on them all at the same time

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 24-11-2010, 23:50   #110
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p.s. and OFF - from 2011 years can go in dog show and breed longhair GSD too like a normal GSD. - now we have nice big bear in this breed
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Old 25-11-2010, 00:20   #111
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Originally Posted by woland77 View Post
Working dog must have a good hardening, not so strong, and not low.This hardness makes it possible to address the difficulties and maintain balance during stress. This feature is not synonymous with dominance.
I think it is the main point. It doesn't matter if the dog is well trained and socialized. Or it is not-socialized and seems to be shy. If you have a dog which can deal with stress you have a good CzW. The problem is to "evaluate" the ability of a dog to deal with stress.

For a long time CzW were trained in the army like GSDs - and they were also tested like GSDs (and similar test you have by bonitation - attacked wolfdog must "strike back").
But not trained Wolfdogs...not trained wolfdogs THINK... They think like wolves....

And wolves are clever animals which always know what has sence...
When they attack small animals - they attack them also alone, from the top. Bigger animals - they do not make "frontal" attack but they always pay attention not to be hurt. They jump, bite and jump away. First when the prey is weak they start to be more "brave". Huge animals...? Lonely wolves do not attack them. They run away or attack them in packs...

Now let's take a not trained wolfdog attacked by huge "Schwarzenerger"-decoy. According the bonitation rules our Wolfdog should change to "kamikaze" dog and attack although the dogs knows EXACTLY that he has no chance to win. A dumb dog will do this. Clever dog will avoid confrontation... In the best possible way...

The problem is such dogs are judged according the pattern and called "weak" or even "shy". EVEN if they can be trained into a very good "strong" dogs (if a dog is trained to "win" with Schwarzeneger-decoys such dog will believe very fast in his "power" and will start to attack also frontal. But it must be trained/teached).

What I want to say that in many cases - when we do not take into consideration the real character of this breed we do not select for good Wolfdogs but we made selection to have "not-thinking" "kamikaze dogs"... To have less inteligent dogs as we have at the moment...
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Old 25-11-2010, 00:30   #112
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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
You can call them "malinois" but exactly this body made them so famous. And exctly because they were changed later to be a "parody" of the original they also lost their abilities to work as they were working before...
not only body make them famous. First of all behavior. Strong selection without evasion: extremly shy because of bad socialisation, no drive becuse..., no good results in working test because, ...
lakenois, tervueren, groenendael have identical build and often common close ancestors but they are not so good. the are selected for nice coat not behavior
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Old 25-11-2010, 00:35   #113
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Now let's take a not trained wolfdog attacked by huge "Schwarzenerger"-decoy. According the bonitation rules our Wolfdog should change to "kamikaze" dog and attack although the dogs knows EXACTLY that he has no chance to win.
New breed: Czechoslovakian Wolf-Terrier.
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Old 25-11-2010, 00:37   #114
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not only body make them famous. First of all behavior. Strong selection without evasion: extremly shy because of bad socialisation, no drive becuse..., no good results in working test because, ...
lakenois, tervueren, groenendael have identical build and often common close ancestors but they are not so good. the are selected for nice coat not behavior
Yes, I agree... But if you put malinois into the "coat" of neapolitan mastiff then not even the great character will help them. They will never be good working dogs...
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Old 25-11-2010, 00:53   #115
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...it all looks like some people try to turn serious faults into specialities
dog can be dominant, can be calm, can be active etc., but never must be shy or agressive. and this difference exists, sorry. dog must be handable and obidient. maybe some people lazy to train their dogs want to say that their dogs are just typical we all are different too with different temperaments, but we all are normal (i hope ). so there is a difference between individual characteristic and pathology and this is big mistake to mix it.
Yes, it is true. The problem is to "evaluate" the real character of a dog. Which is shy? Which is just not socialized? Or just has submisive character?
Agressive? Or trained? Or scared and attacking?

I will call you two examples. There was a nice dog with GREAT character. Very good stable dog which didn't wanted to attack just for fun. But his owner decided that he want to pass some IPO exams. The dog was beaten so long that he started to attack people. Not only decoy but also "normal" people. I knew this dog before his "training". And I know that later he was described as "extremly agressive" wolfdog".
Another example: there was a dog which had the tendency to attack people without any reason. Really agressive. His owner used electric collar and made this dog a "nice, calm dog" - the dog was too affraid to bite anybody. Now he is know as a dog with nice, friendly and calm character....

You can change the dog, you can change his "publicity" - but what you can not change is the genetic.

People called first dogs "agressive" but exactly puppies of the second one can "inheritate" the "genes of agression"...


The problem is that what you can read in internet, what the owners are writing on their pages, what is told about some dogs is sometimes very far from the reality... You saw here that some dogs were called "shy", some described as "nice" and "friendly", some as "calm" and some as "hyperactive", some "agressive" and some "stable". You need really a lot to do to find out what is true.... because in many cases what you hear are just ..fairy-tales...
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Old 25-11-2010, 01:08   #116
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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
Yes, it is true. The problem is to "evaluate" the real character of a dog. Which is shy? Which is just not socialized? Or just has submisive character?
Agressive? Or trained? Or scared and attacking?
as long as breeders believe that every shy dog is great character but not socialized this situation which I saw in Trusalova and on dog shows will never change
It's easy to verify is dog scared and attacking.
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Old 25-11-2010, 01:25   #117
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as long as breeders believe that every shy dog is great character but not socialized this situation which I saw in Trusalova and on dog shows will never change
It's easy to verify is dog scared and attacking.
can say moore- I not was in Trusalova and not understand who situation You saw.
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Old 25-11-2010, 08:22   #118
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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
Yes, it is true. The problem is to "evaluate" the real character of a dog. Which is shy? Which is just not socialized? Or just has submisive character?
Agressive? Or trained? Or scared and attacking?

. You saw here that some dogs were called "shy", some described as "nice" and "friendly", some as "calm" and some as "hyperactive", some "agressive" and some "stable". You need really a lot to do to find out what is true.... because in many cases what you hear are just ..fairy-tales...
Quote:
Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
Now let's take a not trained wolfdog attacked by huge "Schwarzenerger"-decoy. According the bonitation rules our Wolfdog should change to "kamikaze" dog and attack although the dogs knows EXACTLY that he has no chance to win. A dumb dog will do this. Clever dog will avoid confrontation... In the best possible way...

The problem is such dogs are judged according the pattern and called "weak" or even "shy". EVEN if they can be trained into a very good "strong" dogs (if a dog is trained to "win" with Schwarzeneger-decoys such dog will believe very fast in his "power" and will start to attack also frontal. But it must be trained/teached).

What I want to say that in many cases - when we do not take into consideration the real character of this breed we do not select for good Wolfdogs but we made selection to have "not-thinking" "kamikaze dogs"... To have less inteligent dogs as we have at the moment...
I knew we had the same opinion, I totally agree. And that is exactly why I don´t like the Czech bonitation and prefer the Slovakian one. I have seen fear aggressive dogs getting an Of because they attacked in a trained situation they could not escape.

It also is a point of view according to argumentation for defense training. It very often is said that it makes a dog safer because it will only attack the arm. I was defended by my not trained and very thoughtfull dog, she grabbed the butt. Very safe for the dog, very effective and not causing severe damage to the attacker but can be hold for a long time. She defended without hesitation in a situation where I would not have been able to defend myself but would have got bad marks in character test.

Ina

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Old 25-11-2010, 11:15   #119
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When talking with breeders and owners of pups (or reading some posts on WD ) I sometimes hear that "my dog" or "this litter" has great character/s. Sorry, but it alwyas makes me smile. At what age, in your opinion, guys, should the character of a dog be assessed, so that the evaluation would make sense - say something about a particular dog, and not of its potential? Within my limited experience I'd say - when the dog is at least 2,5 - to three years, but maybe some of you have other views?

I'm not talking about the character as assessed by the "prepared" Czech bonitation character test, because just like Ina - I don't think much of it. , but of the general character of the dog as displayed in everyday life - in the streets, among crowds of people, with visitors, among other dogs at trainings etc. etc.
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Old 25-11-2010, 13:10   #120
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Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
You can change the dog, you can change his "publicity" - but what you can not change is the genetic.
but then how to be sure that it is genetic? does this "shy" (or "agressive") gene exist? for example - my second dog. i don't know is it genetic or he just wasn't socialized or or or... (and there iare no doubts if we try to evaluate his behavior... ) one more example. shy parent and its pup - will we ever find out was he genetically shy or he just copied his parent's behavior? etc etc etc. it's too unclear. we can only trust when it's impossible to check cause we can not know for sure why is some dog shy or agressive etc. we can only listen its story from its breeder or owner. and yes, there the legends start
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