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Old 30-01-2010, 15:36   #21
Mikael
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It's not an error in the database?
That is what I´m trying to ask in post # 10

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Old 30-01-2010, 15:52   #22
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Tikkani,
Since there are some unclear issues, could you please sort them out ? It would be great if you wrote how old the parents were, if they were X-rayed and what HD results they obtained.

Don't be surprised that after all the wolfdog.org discussions on unethical CSV breeding in the UK people are a bit distrustful...

I somehow took for granted that you were the kind of person who wanted to do things right, i.e. breed CSV according to certain standards, like reliable breeders in Europe do. I hope I was not mistaken?
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Old 30-01-2010, 15:55   #23
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hi
i believe the kc/bva do score csv's now..altough i do not intend to breed i am going to have my boy scored just for the information.

i do not see why the hurry to breed these two dogs
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Old 30-01-2010, 16:28   #24
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hi
I am going to have my boy scored just for the information...
Hello Layla, if you do a HD or ED x-ray please do it after your dog is 24 month old.

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:06   #25
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Tikkani,
Since there are some unclear issues, could you please sort them out ? It would be great if you wrote how old the parents were, if they were X-rayed and what HD results they obtained.

Don't be surprised that after all the wolfdog.org discussions on unethical CSV breeding in the UK people are a bit distrustful...

I somehow took for granted that you were the kind of person who wanted to do things right, i.e. breed CSV according to certain standards, like reliable breeders in Europe do. I hope I was not mistaken?
here we go again UK BREEDERS it is very obvious people on this site take great pleasure in slagging off uk breeders, and dont start all the usual bull about the health of the dogs routine, we have heard it all before, not long ago anyone who has not got dogs tested can not put there litters on the breeders listings, this was because lots of litters born in EUROPE by EUROPEAN BREEDERS did not have health tests done, and it still remains the same, in fact as you are all so clever can you let us all know the exact % of the CWS population over the age of 16 mths that has been tested, and the number of litters born where either both parents where not tested or where only 1 parent was tested, now in the uk up to date there has been 6 litters born, 5 of these litters has had both parents health tested and Lees litter has had one parent tested so in % the uk breeders are well ahead of Europe with tested dogs. i will have two litters born in 2010 and i am sure Andre will have 1 all the dogs being used are health tested, the litters that Andre has had the adults are all health tested as are mine only difference is i dont send anything to wolfdog.org or any info on what i breed, Why, because of people like you and the others who do every thing so correct, now as for the age of Lees bitch she is two yrs old so about 18mths when she was mated, so no breeders in Europe breed before 18mths ???? in uk the kennel club allow any bitch over the age of 1 to be bred from, i therefor take it that the FCI has different rules??? please let us know... as for the age of the dog, i was not aware that there was any age limit for useing a dog at stud??? as for the comment that Lee made about his dog was a bit shy, he had only got the dog from Europe when he made the comment, i know Gus and he is very out going dog with fantastic temperament, I also own imported dogs from the same kennels and they are all out going dogs with fantastic temperament. Now Lee is rushing to get his dog hip scored after all the comments here, but i am advising him to leave the dog till he is 16 mths old, and not to be doing anything in hurry because of the remarks made on this forum, i have explained there are lots of litters born all over Europe where the tests have not been carried out, Lee has bred a litter of pups from a tested 2 yr old bitch, and a young male dog not tested, if when tested the dog is clear then no harm has been done if it is bad result then Lee will be reasponsable for what he has done, but to jump on the band wagon and slagg off other breeders in uk is reckless and uncalled for especially now you all realise the % of non tested dog breedings take place in Europe, and i dont see you lot slagging them off........ the breeding of non tested animals will continue untill the FCI and Kennel club of uk make it compuslory for all breeding stock to be tested and that any dog failing a test will not be eligable to be used for breeding. so untill that day comes breedings of untested animals will continue, do you think the FCI or Kennel club will do this or do you think they just want the MONEY FROM PUPPY REGISTRATIONS????????? In the uk at present dogs that have affect eye results or extreanly high hip scores that have been tested under the BVA and the results are written onto the dogs pedigree and noted by the kennel club, yet if any of these affected dogs are used in breeding the uk kennel club still REGISTER THE PUPPIES,,,,,MONEY MONEY MONEY they show they care nothing of the wealfare of the dogs they allow to be used in breeding or the puppies produced from these breedings they only want registration fee.... and on a more serious note, my mother has bad eyes and my father has had hip replacement, that means im F....d
this post should get your fingers busy good night
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:14   #26
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Kaya couldnt of been mated when she was 18months,she is from the previous litter to my lad..she must be nearer to 2 1/2
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:31   #27
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hi
i believe the kc/bva do score csv's now..altough i do not intend to breed i am going to have my boy scored just for the information.

i do not see why the hurry to breed these two dogs
hi,it is good all dogs are tested, but i see Mikael gives advise on waiting till 24 mths, i would ignore this, you are vet nurse yourself and will know the majority of dogs are tested in uk at 14-16 mths old, the CWS is fast growing dog and tests can be done at 14-16 mths.
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:43   #28
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Kaya couldnt of been mated when she was 18months,she is from the previous litter to my lad..she must be nearer to 2 1/2
we know what age she is but on this site only has uk as having 28 CWS, there are 48 cws in uk, sorry 49 i arrived home from Europe today with another male.......so total cws population in uk is today 49.
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Old 01-02-2010, 01:54   #29
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Only my perspective...

I think most people consider it ethical breeding practice to see how a dog will develop in temperament and health before breeding it - 11 months on the male obviously won't hurt him - but, it's hard to see what he is really like at that age, since personalities (as well as structure) develop so much during adolescence. I don't think people responding to this thread pin the UK as the only culprit, we are all 100% aware this happens in other places - but since the topic was started, I believe it opened it up to discussion and critique. As a new breeder myself, I am certainly open to that with my own litters - and hope other new breeders are as well. I think it would be great if everyone took the time, effort, and yes, money to breed as responsibly as possible. While Lee (or other breeders in the same situation) will have the aftermath to deal with if there are bad results on the male, it is the puppies who will have to suffer the potential effects of breeding with 2 dysplastic dogs. I certainly hope it's not the case, and the puppies (and Gus) turn out happy, brilliant, and healthy...

I think Kaya is a perfectly acceptable age to breed (I don't think there was ever any question about that), and commend Lee for having her hips tested and allowing them to be public, if those are indeed her results on the OFA page. With C hips, it becomes so very important to be certain you are breeding to a healthy dog from a healthy line - I think people really worry for the pups since Argo (father of Gus), though healthy himself, has produced some puppies with HD. If not breeding to improve the breed, with only the best probabilities for a stable, correct and healthy litter being matched together, then why breed? If I were Lee, I would probably wait until 18 months (or maybe 24) before I tested Gus; since there is nothing to be done at this point, and the results are much more reliable at an older age.

I know you and Rona definitely do not see eye to eye...but I think in previous posts she has been very supportive of Tikaani in his ventures, as I recall, even if she was not in agreement with other practices in the UK. I really think it was probably a shock and disbelief to her to see the details of the breeding.

Whatever the outcome, there are nine new pups in the world, and again, I hope only the best for them.
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Old 01-02-2010, 02:02   #30
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hi,it is good all dogs are tested, but i see Mikael gives advise on waiting till 24 mths, i would ignore this, you are vet nurse yourself and will know the majority of dogs are tested in uk at 14-16 mths old, the CWS is fast growing dog and tests can be done at 14-16 mths.
Just as an example - my male tested HD free at 18 months, I saw the films myself, there was nothing there. I retested at 27 months, and he had gone from perfect to C in one hip...I had already bred him at this point. Mikael owns the full brother to that male - I think he errs on the side of caution after that instance. Official results can only be given at 24 months in the US...I think the reliability of the test at 18 months is around 80 - 90%, but late-onset HD has a better chance of being caught later on.
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Old 01-02-2010, 22:12   #31
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Hello Solowolf

I think you did ask Nebulosa some HD questions when she had her first litter in Brazil... now was that an attack on Brazilian breeders ???

And many many many people has had to answer questions online here on the English forum like for example Wilczy Omen, Wolfsirius, Taabernakkelin, Da louba tar, Crying Wolf, Dancing Cloud, z Peronowki, Zlata Palz, Monika, you and more... and very soon ME !!!

Some of this breeders at least did answer are questions

Remember there are also 9 more Wolfdog forums on this site, many questions are asked to breeders there to...

I think if you plan to breed CsW and start kennel topics here, you will have to answer some questions...
Especially if it say "data not available" on the HD info and you breed whit a dog that is under 12 month, and this goes for ALL Breeders not just the ones in the UK...

My veterinarian recommends that male dogs of this size are to be at least 24 month to do a HD x-ray, and Just for the record I think I will x-ray Hronec at 36 month As I do not plan to breed him this spring neither ...

Very best regards / Mikael
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:07   #32
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...there are also 9 more Wolfdog forums on this site..., l
Eleven, if you want to be exact, Mikael. You haven't counted the Spanish and Portuguese ones.
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Old 02-02-2010, 18:47   #33
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Eleven, if you want to be exact, Mikael. You haven't counted the Spanish and Portuguese ones.
hmmmmm, there is ???

But how do I find them ???

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 02-02-2010, 18:51   #34
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hmmmmm, there is ???
But how do I find them ???
Spanish:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11
Portuguese:
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=153
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Old 02-02-2010, 20:38   #35
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Gracias !!!

Best regards / Mikael
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Old 03-02-2010, 00:46   #36
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Originally Posted by GalomyOak View Post
Only my perspective...

I think most people consider it ethical breeding practice to see how a dog will develop in temperament and health before breeding it - 11 months on the male obviously won't hurt him - but, it's hard to see what he is really like at that age, since personalities (as well as structure) develop so much during adolescence. I don't think people responding to this thread pin the UK as the only culprit, we are all 100% aware this happens in other places - but since the topic was started, I believe it opened it up to discussion and critique. As a new breeder myself, I am certainly open to that with my own litters - and hope other new breeders are as well. I think it would be great if everyone took the time, effort, and yes, money to breed as responsibly as possible. While Lee (or other breeders in the same situation) will have the aftermath to deal with if there are bad results on the male, it is the puppies who will have to suffer the potential effects of breeding with 2 dysplastic dogs. I certainly hope it's not the case, and the puppies (and Gus) turn out happy, brilliant, and healthy...

I think Kaya is a perfectly acceptable age to breed (I don't think there was ever any question about that), and commend Lee for having her hips tested and allowing them to be public, if those are indeed her results on the OFA page. With C hips, it becomes so very important to be certain you are breeding to a healthy dog from a healthy line - I think people really worry for the pups since Argo (father of Gus), though healthy himself, has produced some puppies with HD. If not breeding to improve the breed, with only the best probabilities for a stable, correct and healthy litter being matched together, then why breed? If I were Lee, I would probably wait until 18 months (or maybe 24) before I tested Gus; since there is nothing to be done at this point, and the results are much more reliable at an older age.

I know you and Rona definitely do not see eye to eye...but I think in previous posts she has been very supportive of Tikaani in his ventures, as I recall, even if she was not in agreement with other practices in the UK. I really think it was probably a shock and disbelief to her to see the details of the breeding.

Whatever the outcome, there are nine new pups in the world, and again, I hope only the best for them.
i get all my dogs tested at 14-16 mths aand i have looked into hips for a long time, now my wolfdogs are very active, and i mean very, they live in large pens and they get out into a field every day, the run about and play, so if my friends dog lives in the house and goes for a walk every day and get to run in a small garden, you will agree that my dogs will get a lot more running about, so in your oppinion would this have any affect on a hip score? i have had 2 dogs hip scored 3 times at different ages to compair results with age and both dogs lived in different types of homes one was pet one was working and very active, both dogs where from same parents and had very similar results at first test, at 3rd test there was a significant difference in the results, my dogs are active 24.7 so they get done at 14mths some 16mths, inherited hd we can test for and do our best to improve in breeding stock, but lots of other factors contribute to hd results as well, some bone disorders like HODS disease which is similar to OCD can be caused by in one case i know of by an Akita puppy being fed on Hills Sience plan dog food, if puppies can damage the Patella by going up and down stairs then it can also affect the hip joints, so lots of things can affect the hips before any test is done,with the Czech wolfdogs in last 10 yrs has become an unslought of health problems, every time i visit is new topic for something else, it becomes more like an inbred show dogs health case every day,look at the breeds that suffer from people breeding, i love my czech wolfdogs very much but now you know why i have only bred 3 litters in 10 yrs and why i keep my other type of wolfdogs as well.
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Old 03-02-2010, 04:46   #37
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i get all my dogs tested at 14-16 mths aand i have looked into hips for a long time, now my wolfdogs are very active, and i mean very, they live in large pens and they get out into a field every day, the run about and play, so if my friends dog lives in the house and goes for a walk every day and get to run in a small garden, you will agree that my dogs will get a lot more running about, so in your oppinion would this have any affect on a hip score? i have had 2 dogs hip scored 3 times at different ages to compair results with age and both dogs lived in different types of homes one was pet one was working and very active, both dogs where from same parents and had very similar results at first test, at 3rd test there was a significant difference in the results, my dogs are active 24.7 so they get done at 14mths some 16mths, inherited hd we can test for and do our best to improve in breeding stock, but lots of other factors contribute to hd results as well, some bone disorders like HODS disease which is similar to OCD can be caused by in one case i know of by an Akita puppy being fed on Hills Sience plan dog food, if puppies can damage the Patella by going up and down stairs then it can also affect the hip joints, so lots of things can affect the hips before any test is done,with the Czech wolfdogs in last 10 yrs has become an unslought of health problems, every time i visit is new topic for something else, it becomes more like an inbred show dogs health case every day,look at the breeds that suffer from people breeding, i love my czech wolfdogs very much but now you know why i have only bred 3 litters in 10 yrs and why i keep my other type of wolfdogs as well.
Paul, I answered this in a new thread.

Marcy
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Old 14-02-2010, 15:54   #38
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i know Gus and he is very out going dog with fantastic temperament, I also own imported dogs from the same kennels and they are all out going dogs with fantastic temperament. Now Lee is rushing to get his dog hip scored after all the comments here, but i am advising him to leave the dog till he is 16 mths old, and not to be doing anything in hurry because of the remarks made on this forum
You see to be not very experienced CLC breeder because i see you not have enough knowledge of CLC. Gus is son of Argo Pøízrak Karpat. And he is dog with many puppies with 50% with strong displasia and only amateur breeder will breed with such dog without testing his hips for dysplasia. To make litter with this dog is unresponsible.

I see in database you import from crying wolf another problematic puppie coming from displasia line. Your female is Histeria Crying wolf and you say you have experiences in breeding but you import female for breeding which is inbreed on Feherlofia - a dysplatic dog and have many many dog with bad results in pedigree.

you write many things about health of CLC and criticize other but you do very bad work in you contry because you say it is good to breed with dog from dysplasia line without knowing his hip results. And you import dogs inbreeded on dysplasia. You make really bad for health of CLC in UK.
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Old 14-02-2010, 17:04   #39
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Dear Lupis ,

I'm always happy when I read your nice words....would you be so kind to answer my question I made a mounth ago to you.....such as: what is your experienses with CSWolfdogs? your breeding experiences? etc......
Because as I see you are always just critisizes everybody but couldn't show anything by yourself!

Please write me the names of the"many many wrong Hd resulted dogs of Histeria's pedigree"
And please don't forget that Argo's pups have mothers as well.....

Paul doesn't need to worry about the health of the dogs: I give breeding and health quarantee for EVERY of our pups!

Else : of course I don't agree that Lee used Fergus. He is young , he hasn't got breeding license and no HB results.


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Old 14-02-2010, 23:13   #40
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You see to be not very experienced CLC breeder because i see you not have enough knowledge of CLC. Gus is son of Argo Pøízrak Karpat. And he is dog with many puppies with 50% with strong displasia and only amateur breeder will breed with such dog without testing his hips for dysplasia. To make litter with this dog is unresponsible.

I see in database you import from crying wolf another problematic puppie coming from displasia line. Your female is Histeria Crying wolf and you say you have experiences in breeding but you import female for breeding which is inbreed on Feherlofia - a dysplatic dog and have many many dog with bad results in pedigree.

you write many things about health of CLC and criticize other but you do very bad work in you contry because you say it is good to breed with dog from dysplasia line without knowing his hip results. And you import dogs inbreeded on dysplasia. You make really bad for health of CLC in UK.
i spoke up for LEE as he is a friend and avery good friend and he has bred from dog that is not tested, but i can not tell Lee what to do nor i am responsable for what he may do,my anger with this site is there are hundreds of cws puppies born where one or both parents are not tested but because it happen with uk breeder it starts big slagging match, as for breeding dogs i have bred dogs for 35 years and i have studied and passed my exams in dog genetics, i have worked with a vet for 12 years in my spare time, i have owned wolves, f1,f2,f3 and many different types of wolfdogs, i have owned cws wolfdogs for nearly 10 yrs, even though i have worked with wolves and wolfdogs for many years before i purchased a cws i lived in europe so i could work and learn before i got one, ALL MY ANIMALS ARE HEALTH CHECKED, as for the dogs i imported from crying wolf kennels,, you say they have hip displacia in the lines, can you give me lines without??? i await your reply,, as for displacia being carried and passed on is why i studied genetics, so dont you go getting all worried about what i do in uk, some dogs are inbred more than others that is why experienced breeders like me can buy them because i know what i am doing with the dogs and why i want them to breed of, as does crying wolf kennel who has been breeding for long time and producess very beautiful and good dogs, but you may not know that even experienced breeders like myself get it wrong sometimes but i dont hide things i share it with my friends as they do with me, and as for knowing it all, i do not, only last week i had problem with male dog i had never had before so i phoned 3 of my friends for advise.......Histeria will have her health checks carried out very soon and if all is o.k. then when she becomes 3 yrs old and she has blood test and health check done i will breed her to a male that i have bred for this bitch. how long have you been breeding dogs? what lines do you breed from? regards pacino
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