How can we stop our breed from collapsing under the push of fake CSW and pedigrees?

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes, I did send a looooong e-mail whit links + a list of dogs to the FCI in 2009,,, I did re send it in 2010 and did ask way there was no replay, but this far there is no replay on that e-mail neither

Hmmm,,, now it is 2011, so I think I will send it again

FCI only wants are money not are questions

Mikael, dont be a idealist . FCI is a big bussines and some parts of system like a mafia.
Sending any emails or letters are not sense. Our breed must defence only we self.

[Morian]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Sending any emails or letters are not sense

this is not true. i had to deal with fci 2 times... it helps, really. letters, petitions etc. we must not say "it's sensless", we must not sit idly by, we must act i wonder how many words were said, why are you all still here doing the same - words? the only questions are: who will make, what exactly and when/how. enough. who has tried to write a letter, to create a petition, finally to make promised so long ago dna tests? auu? we have not many csv at us, but even here people are interested in pure breeding, we offered financial help if somebody decides to make test, we also want to test some dogs from here coming from the "doubtful" lines. some people from here offered to test these dogs for red pigment (i don't know is there any sense, but i'm happy that our people are ready to do anything, not only to discuss this problem virtually)

[massimo]

I have to agree with Pavel...sending emails and letters is useless.
NOW is time for clubs to speak to each other and take UNITED action to protect the breed.
I am a lover of this breed for several years (at least 8...) , and I am SURE that I am not the only one who is slowly taking distance from all this mess..
disappointed that nobody is doing anything to stop it...
disappointed to see that major interest is money and finding short cuts to make "wolfish" dogs but not necessarily following the standard just to be able to sell dogs to ignorant buyers...

Funny enough, the Mutara experiment was the most "honest" one, compared to pretending your dogs are wolfish just because they come from some Crying Wolf line...so if there are some mix up situations in the DNAs..you can just blame Edit.
BULLSHIT!!
Red Saarlos looking dogs do not come from Edits lines...
These hyper wolfish french dogs do not come from these lines either, i would bet a finger on it.
AND these american wolf looking dogs who come STILL from Crying wolf lines or even from some honest Italian breeder (namely my friend Riccardo from near Rome!!) are clear and obvious fake.

When i read that people request DNA tests from Crying Wolf dogs to prove that Galiba or other of her dogs are really from their parents, I find people are really ridiculous because they refuse to see the obvious...

Sorry to state this but our breed is slowly dyeing...

[hanninadina]

Massimo, you have a lot of knowledge with the breed, you can talk and write excellent. You are one of a handful csw people who knows most of them and are respected from everyone. So from my point of view you would be the best person to start a petition to the FCI. I know you want to be friend with most of the people and do not open your pandora box, but if you are screaming here, the same is true for you, why do you do not start to fight against backyard mixing outcross breeding?Best example how breeders ruined their own reputation is Cory Keizer. When she starts with a handful dogs at the begining of the 2000s, all was nice. But then she starts mixing Saarloos with csw. And what did we get? Untypical dogs and ... they did not look nice!Same starts now from France. Lots of untypical wolfdogs. They even look like some mixed Huskys or Malamutes. I forgot, Cory did from France too the last years. First under her own name and now under a different name. Frankie follows in her foodsteps.But Massimo to be honest, Edit has best possibilities to do everything where she lives. And when you see the good cooperation with Frankie everyone can simply imagine, how the deals work. Someone wrote, I do not if in this thread or another, chaeting would not happen in Slovakia and other countries. But that is not true and the over years in csw involved people know that. I know for sure in a famous slovakian kennel was done refreshing blood. And if you see these animals from the begining of the 2000, everybody who has good contact to pure wolves, know that these animals are so amazingly well and nice in behaviour, because the wolf behaviour turns out of them. But I would say, the good thing is, that a carpathian wolf was taken.That from Finland F 1 csw came down to europe and only a few do know the true pedigree is a result from witch hunting after the Mutara project! I wrote some month ago in german forum. Although I know that there is in the moment no real need to cross in a carpathian wolf it would be good to do it, so it could be prevented that the illegal mixing goes on. And truely every breeder who refuses to make dna should come on a list which is clearly published here on wolfdog.org on first sight and of course on all clubs in each country. So newbys could see immediately, where you will not get true pure csw.Of course from a wolf/csw litter not all pups will be able to be csw. Only 1 or 2 will be who can use further for breeding. But clubs must lead the breeding and not fake pedigee producers.To the fake pedigree producers I only can say, if you think you did a good breeding in crossing. Take your dogs to register them. Be fair and do the bonitation, watch for the standard. And if your fresh blood new csws will pass everything, with Gods sake go on with your breeding. But then everybody would see and can decide by themselves, if they want a new mixed but official csw or a an old line csw. Chrisitan

[massimo]

Christian, i am NOBODY.
Clubs should take action, strong action.
Owners of the standard should do it.
I am just shouting my worries...but my life continues easily.
I am concerned for the breed..but my dogs are the only really important thing.
Clubs are natural connection with FCI, not me.

About Edit, I have visited her kennel many times, and genetically they all seem following her own breeding logic, to my eyes, so I would put my word that her dogs DNA and her pedigrees correspond exactly.
What others do with her dogs is not her responsibility.
m

[saschia]

Christian, I would be very interested to know in which kennel you think the CSV was "refreshed" by wolf blood.

The post regarding mixing/cheating in Slovakia was mine. I cannot of course tell about wolves, as there are plenty of those in Slovakia , I have my reserves but would not consider it impossible. And I don't say people in Slovakia would not cheat, although I would like to believe that. But my post which you mentioned was specifically about SWD inmixing, and I gave several reasons why I consider it very unlikely to happen in Slovakia, at least untill now http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...&postcount=116.

[saschia]

Massimo, you are right that the clubs should do something, so I hope we will be able to think about something and, most importantly, to get a good cooperation between the clubs.

But I must say, that although I find it hard to believe Edit would cheat intentionally, the red puppies were born after the parents from her kennel, and the paternity was proved by DNA tests, so that means something is wrong, and her saying nothing and not cooperating doesn't help. On the other hand, I don't like making judgement based on limited knowledge, so I am not judging myself until I know more.

Making the overall DNA testing would be the most revealing thing, but as Sonya posted elsewhere, the question remains who will pay for it? And if we find the money somehow, in what way will we decide, what/who to test first? The money is never unlimited, unlike the ways you can spend it.

[massimo]

Saschia
who sent dna samples to prove paternity?

Als I remember there was an issue with DMA results which were not logical, dna paternity proven as well...
why doesnt the SAME laboratory handle DNA paternity and DMA? this would be the only way of proving the results, or not?
I am really lost...
I dont trust anybody anymore.

[GalomyOak]

What is the typical cost in different countries associated with DNA parentage tests?

[saschia]

the paternity testing I believe was done by licenced laboratory, and concerned the red puppies and their parents. The DM testing with inconsistent results was in a different dogs and as far as I know the results of simultaneous DM and paternity testing were not published yet.

The mistakes in DM testing might easily come from DNA contamination or from mixing of samples, as it is mostly done not in licenced lab, and incoming samples are not taken by a strict protocol. That's why the results are only partly official, there is no certificate. So mistakes can happen and sometimes do. DM test are also done by licenced lab (in that case the results of parents and offspring should be consistent).

Highly off-topic paragraph: The only official results of DNA tests you can get with samples being taken and labeled by a licenced veterinarian (who puts a stamp and signature on it, so should carry consequences if it is shown later that the samples were mixed up before coming to the lab), so that there is no question of their being taken from declared animal (that means the vet should check the chip or tattoo number against the passport or the pedigree). Then the sample goes with the copy of pedigree (proving the identity of the dog in question, and having the same chip or tattoo number!) to the certified lab which has to at all times keep track of the sample with proper labeling of all extracts etc, so that the results can be unquestionably traced back to the original sample and from it to the animal in question.

You can get results on any DNA samples which you send to a testing lab, but it only proves that the results were obtained from that sample. If you have no way to prove that the sample was for sure taken from that animal, than you don't have official results of that animal!

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by massimo

What others do with her dogs is not her responsibility.
m

I disagree with this and hope that's not the same mind set all breeders have.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I disagree with this and hope that's not the same mind set all breeders have.

Please explain??
You mean somebody should check what all the puppy owners do with their dogs? if they change the puppy , if they fake data, if they mix with other breeds?

...

you are maybe far too utopistic...
One shoud look at the real responsible instead of always picking on the easy target.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by massimo

Please explain??
You mean somebody should check what all the puppy owners do with their dogs? if they change the puppy , if they fake data, if they mix with other breeds?

...

you are maybe far too utopistic...
One shoud look at the real responsible instead of always picking on the easy target.

Should I be sorry if I prefer breeders who attempt to place dogs and puppies responsibly? Nobody can be perfect and everyone makes mistakes but it's still their responsibility nonetheless. To me and other breeders I've known, a dog or puppy is 100% their responsibility for having caused them to be created in the first place. A puppy is not a one-way sales by which one can wash their hands clean of any responsibility once money has changed hands.

If a breeder knows their dogs are being used to create mixes (or other mistreatment), perhaps they should think again before sending any more dogs to the same person/kennel, or cohorts of the same person/kennel. And if it happens repeatedly, to start reviewing policies by which they place puppies.

[saschia]

I agree with both of you guys. While a breeder cannot 100% influence what happens to the pups from his/her kennel, the breeder should learn from previous mistakes in placement.

But, it is customers who pick the breeders as well. Unfortunately, most people do not research their breed of interest, do not look for quality (in different aspects), but instead take what is well-promoted or easily available. It is a great pity, that there are so many differences in breeding regulations between countries - and so the honest small-time breeders are in a disadvantage, just as in other commercial enterprises.

[Rachel86]

Greetings All!

My name is Rachel and I am new to wolfdog.org but I have been visiting the site for about a month now. My boyfriend and I are interested in getting a female puppy from a spring 2012 litter. I feel that after reading many threads it seems like many breeders are skeptical of new owners and furthermore - importing dogs to different countries. I will be posting an owner "resume" shortly on a thread, to which therein lies my question: Which thread would be ideal to post such a topic? I apologize for posting off topic on this thread but I did not want to start posting without getting insight as to which area would be appropriate (also this thread seemed most active).

Hope to hear from you all soon!
Rachel

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Rachel86

I will be posting an owner "resume" shortly on a thread, to which therein lies my question: Which thread would be ideal to post such a topic?

l

Hello and welcome;

I have seen multiple introductory posts at the Off-Topic section in the past.

Perhaps that's the correct place.

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Rachel86

Greetings All!

My name is Rachel and I am new to wolfdog.org but I have been visiting the site for about a month now. My boyfriend and I are interested in getting a female puppy from a spring 2012 litter. I feel that after reading many threads it seems like many breeders are skeptical of new owners and furthermore - importing dogs to different countries. I will be posting an owner "resume" shortly on a thread, to which therein lies my question: Which thread would be ideal to post such a topic? I apologize for posting off topic on this thread but I did not want to start posting without getting insight as to which area would be appropriate (also this thread seemed most active).

Hope to hear from you all soon!
Rachel

Welcome,

It's better to start this as another topic (or add to an old one). Your best bet is not to advertise that you are looking for a puppy on the forum...the breeders that will find you here are not always the ones you want to import from (but are rather trying to get rid of extra puppies, sometimes with temperament or other issues). It's better to research, find a breeding you like (many will be posted in the coming months as fall/winter approaches), and contact the breeder with your resume - or even better, if you plan to breed, get in touch with our small American group to see what our American breeding "plan" could use - or soak up a little of our collective experience. Don't be afraid of language barriers! I have a puppy (18 month old male) from my last litter that resides in Chicago. I'd be happy to put you in touch with his owner, if you like, so you can get a "taste" of the breed.

Marcy

[Rachel86]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I have a puppy (18 month old male) from my last litter that resides in Chicago. I'd be happy to put you in touch with his owner, if you like, so you can get a "taste" of the breed.

We would love to get in contact with the owner if they're willing! Let us know if a meet and greet is possible.