CzW breeding in France (work vs. show) - Page 3

Sherdor · 31-01-2007, 01:23

Hey all,

I have tryed to follow this post...

I am from France, and i want to give you some precision.

The most people in France, whom are working dog lovers, will respect standard and give CWs working activity, in the respect of law or in french breeding club decision.

Here in France, some breeders will never train CWs in defense...
But it doesn't concern all breeders !!!

The most of breeders here are convinced that we must increase socialization and training (obedience) for CWs living in France, in order to establish stable caracter.
French breeding commitee, recently officially validated, thought about since the first meetings.

French Breeding commitee would plan several actions :
- preparing an information document support to new CWs owner to explain them CWs caracteristic and a social needs,
- actions to make possible a better selection mixing good caracter and excellent morphology,
- actions to increase breeder information exchange to help them in their selection

But ALL this actions will reach their objectives rapidly with the support of breeders and expert in the native country of the CWs.

The other problem is the french law about "dangerous animals" which concerns in fact dog used as guard dog (like Rottweiler, Tosa, Pittbull).

In future, this law will be harder and harder...

So, because CWs is a recent breed in France, most a person in SCC and Breeding Club think that we must be very prudent before accepting CWs in defense activity.

Imagine can accident here in France with CWs trained as deffese dog. People will only see that accident as a "dog like wolf" accident, and media (press, television) will take the opportunity af making good audience...

For conclusion, the CWs risk to be classed as "dangerous like dog"... You imagine the disaster for the breed !

I have Rottweiler and i work in obedience and defense too.

I am sad of this situation for CWs, but i understand this reserved attitud for Cws as defense dog.
And for now, it's a intelligent decision !

For conclusion, please find some photos about my dog... Most of people thought at the beginning that it just be a show dog with wolf like behaviour...

They are wrong... as me, because, with a few working period (few days), not with me (i am not very good in this area...), we discovered a dog with a real working potential !

I want to inform that the INSTRUCTOR and CONDUCTOR of my dog, Ar'wan de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale, is M. Lionel MARTINEZ, well known french instructor for rottweilers.

M. Lionel MARTINEZ is part of the Mollynière de Lo'Scale TEAM BREEDING, and all the working stage was did in the breeding facility near Paris....

So this breed station, as others in France, are working with their CWs.

But for now, see photos above obedience and tracking !

Nebulosa · 31-01-2007, 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherdor

Imagine can accident here in France with CWs trained as deffese dog. People will only see that accident as a "dog like wolf" accident, and media (press, television) will take the opportunity af making good audience...

For conclusion, the CWs risk to be classed as "dangerous like dog"... You imagine the disaster for the breed !

I really not understand this...
Is ever more easy one dog without defence training attack one human as accident than one dog treined.
Defence dogs have do be very well sociabilised, contrary case they cannot do this work, will never pass one working test, one not well treined dog not bite correct and already show problems in this test, one not very well sociabilized will show a lot of problems in this training, one very well trained dog, with waek nerves already isn't able to pass these tests!!
Another thing, the defence training not finish when the training class end, prepare a ring dog need a lot of time and knowledge by the owner too.
IF happen an accidend with one defence treined dog, is very more easy stop the attack than with one who isn't trained.
Owners who training the defence with dogs are more responsible than owners who have only a "pet" ( normally, without generalisations, ok), know better the own dog as have one better connection with this dog.

Rona · 31-01-2007, 09:44

Thanks Sherdor, Ness and Paida99 for your most informative explanations. They clear up some aspects of the CSVs situation and standing in France, so dimmed by Frank's posts.

It's good that you don't wait and don't 'need more time' do help your wolfdogs develop their full potential as working dogs

Dogs breed very fast - by the time one learns how to breed CSVs on one’s own mistakes he might have “produced” hundreds of dogs with bad HD, wrong proportions, poor character, etc. Ina is absolutely right – every responsible breeder should start doing his/her best here and now, by gathering information, seeking advice, studying pedigrees, health results etc. BEFORE he/she starts breeding. I'm not a breeder myself, but I appreciate professionalism

I think I understand you doubts concerning defence training. Paula, I see your point, but from what I've learnt, CSVs should be trained slightly differently than other breeds (there was a topic about training methods some time ago on this forum). They require experienced trainers who know the specificity of the breed and do not just blindly imitate methods used for other dogs. Thus the help of Czech and Slovak specialists to offer trainer trainings would probably be priceless, but I guess this happens at CSV summer camps? It's probably wiser not to allow defence before a critical number of good CSV defence trainers is available than risk a sight of a CSV jumping to somebody's throat instead of a decoy's arm (as wolves do

)

Sherdor · 31-01-2007, 19:51

Thank you a lot RONA, i am glad to see you understand all i tryed to explain.

Nebulosa, i agree with you, and i know all you say. I just want to give you some precision, because i think some informations are missing you.

I repeat i have Rottweilers (5) and i have trained some of them in defense. My male alpha, our first one Rottweiler (it's 6 years old now) needed to be under control during 6 months before biting only one time ! (excitation phase without biting)

For the most people in France, Rottweiler are the worse dog, dangerous, etc...

What i wanted to tell you is, because of the context, of media power, we need to be very careful in France with CWs.

In the case of a CWs, trained as defense dog, would bite somebody, all the breed would have problem at the end...

Of course a good instructor will validate each step before following the defense training program...

But everybody know that some people, named themselves "instructor", are VERY BAD in fact and make mistake during training...

It's why support from instructor in native CWs countries is a very important point.

The real problem is that popular press and people wouldn't make the difference...
They only see in the NEWs :" A wolf like dog, traineg as defense dog, bite somebody"... and i already know the impact of these kind of news for the breed....

For now, we hope that more and more new owner of CWs will go to obedience club, or agility....anything to make the CWs working...

...because a working dog is UNDERCONTROL compared to no-education dog !

Nebulosa · 01-02-2007, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sherdor

But everybody know that some people, named themselves "instructor", are VERY BAD in fact and make mistake during training...

Now I really understand the principall problem of the defence training in France ( and not only)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

I think I understand you doubts concerning defence training. Paula, I see your point, but from what I've learnt, CSVs should be trained slightly differently than other breeds (there was a topic about training methods some time ago on this forum). They require experienced trainers who know the specificity of the breed and do not just blindly imitate methods used for other dogs. Thus the help of Czech and Slovak specialists to offer trainer trainings would probably be priceless, but I guess this happens at CSV summer camps? It's probably wiser not to allow defence before a critical number of good CSV defence trainers is available than risk a sight of a CSV jumping to somebody's throat instead of a decoy's arm (as wolves do

)

that is one thing that is better nor comment about in public, who knows that one sensationalist journalist will not read it and make one news " CzW - The neck cutter breed"

Who doubt is crazy, already have someone who say " Wolfdogs-the kid killers"

31-01-2007, 01:23	#41
Sherdor Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,023	Hey all, I have tryed to follow this post... I am from France, and i want to give you some precision. The most people in France, whom are working dog lovers, will respect standard and give CWs working activity, in the respect of law or in french breeding club decision. Here in France, some breeders will never train CWs in defense... But it doesn't concern all breeders !!! The most of breeders here are convinced that we must increase socialization and training (obedience) for CWs living in France, in order to establish stable caracter. French breeding commitee, recently officially validated, thought about since the first meetings. French Breeding commitee would plan several actions : - preparing an information document support to new CWs owner to explain them CWs caracteristic and a social needs, - actions to make possible a better selection mixing good caracter and excellent morphology, - actions to increase breeder information exchange to help them in their selection But ALL this actions will reach their objectives rapidly with the support of breeders and expert in the native country of the CWs. The other problem is the french law about "dangerous animals" which concerns in fact dog used as guard dog (like Rottweiler, Tosa, Pittbull). In future, this law will be harder and harder... So, because CWs is a recent breed in France, most a person in SCC and Breeding Club think that we must be very prudent before accepting CWs in defense activity. Imagine can accident here in France with CWs trained as deffese dog. People will only see that accident as a "dog like wolf" accident, and media (press, television) will take the opportunity af making good audience... For conclusion, the CWs risk to be classed as "dangerous like dog"... You imagine the disaster for the breed ! I have Rottweiler and i work in obedience and defense too. I am sad of this situation for CWs, but i understand this reserved attitud for Cws as defense dog. And for now, it's a intelligent decision ! For conclusion, please find some photos about my dog... Most of people thought at the beginning that it just be a show dog with wolf like behaviour... They are wrong... as me, because, with a few working period (few days), not with me (i am not very good in this area...), we discovered a dog with a real working potential ! I want to inform that the INSTRUCTOR and CONDUCTOR of my dog, Ar'wan de la Mollynière de Lo'Scale, is M. Lionel MARTINEZ, well known french instructor for rottweilers. M. Lionel MARTINEZ is part of the Mollynière de Lo'Scale TEAM BREEDING, and all the working stage was did in the breeding facility near Paris.... So this breed station, as others in France, are working with their CWs. But for now, see photos above obedience and tracking !

31-01-2007, 09:44	#43
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	Thanks Sherdor, Ness and Paida99 for your most informative explanations. They clear up some aspects of the CSVs situation and standing in France, so dimmed by Frank's posts. It's good that you don't wait and don't 'need more time' do help your wolfdogs develop their full potential as working dogs Dogs breed very fast - by the time one learns how to breed CSVs on one’s own mistakes he might have “produced” hundreds of dogs with bad HD, wrong proportions, poor character, etc. Ina is absolutely right – every responsible breeder should start doing his/her best here and now, by gathering information, seeking advice, studying pedigrees, health results etc. BEFORE he/she starts breeding. I'm not a breeder myself, but I appreciate professionalism I think I understand you doubts concerning defence training. Paula, I see your point, but from what I've learnt, CSVs should be trained slightly differently than other breeds (there was a topic about training methods some time ago on this forum). They require experienced trainers who know the specificity of the breed and do not just blindly imitate methods used for other dogs. Thus the help of Czech and Slovak specialists to offer trainer trainings would probably be priceless, but I guess this happens at CSV summer camps? It's probably wiser not to allow defence before a critical number of good CSV defence trainers is available than risk a sight of a CSV jumping to somebody's throat instead of a decoy's arm (as wolves do )

31-01-2007, 19:51	#44
Sherdor Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,023	Thank you a lot RONA, i am glad to see you understand all i tryed to explain. Nebulosa, i agree with you, and i know all you say. I just want to give you some precision, because i think some informations are missing you. I repeat i have Rottweilers (5) and i have trained some of them in defense. My male alpha, our first one Rottweiler (it's 6 years old now) needed to be under control during 6 months before biting only one time ! (excitation phase without biting) For the most people in France, Rottweiler are the worse dog, dangerous, etc... What i wanted to tell you is, because of the context, of media power, we need to be very careful in France with CWs. In the case of a CWs, trained as defense dog, would bite somebody, all the breed would have problem at the end... Of course a good instructor will validate each step before following the defense training program... But everybody know that some people, named themselves "instructor", are VERY BAD in fact and make mistake during training... It's why support from instructor in native CWs countries is a very important point. The real problem is that popular press and people wouldn't make the difference... They only see in the NEWs :" A wolf like dog, traineg as defense dog, bite somebody"... and i already know the impact of these kind of news for the breed.... For now, we hope that more and more new owner of CWs will go to obedience club, or agility....anything to make the CWs working... ...because a working dog is UNDERCONTROL compared to no-education dog !