A bit about breed selection

Nebulosa · 20-01-2011, 00:56

After read the French forum, after read some comments at Facebook and also after hear somethings about breeding, I decided to open this topic.
After the topic about the french atipical dogs, probably mixed animals, I've read several times that we're criticizing the french breeding, we all know it's not truth at all.
I noted that most of people have no idea about what is select a breed, what is the meaning of be a breeder, according what I could read, most of people thinks it's only make pups according to what they imagine is right and is fine, win at dogshows is only a proof that everything is fine and that the world is colorfull and perfect.
The most sad is that people are being deceived by these "wanna be breeders" and helping them to keep people wrongly informed.

Then I want to show what is REALLY a breed selection, and for shut up the mouths of those who said that "we're criticizing the french breeding" using a French breeder as exemple, I hope it will also help people to give value to real breeders, which help to evolve our breed and which are missing at CzW and which are being forgoten.

This is the first dog, the start of what i'm talking about, I will not point here detailes about standard but who can understand it will see her good features also as the bad ones.

We will soon see that the breeder had plain notion about it, contrary to some people who are blind with the word "my dog is perfect, he is the best, he won dogshows" and keep falling ever in the same mistakes for generations.

Well, this is the daughter of the first dog I posted here, a bit different isn't it?
She is quite wolfish comparing to her mother, but its only the first generation, normaly is when the work is only starting, you cant expect much, right? Well, I would say wrong, soon you will see.

Now, here we go with the second generation selected by this breeder, daughter and son of the second dog I posted.

Wow! When I saw them I couldn't believe, but let's see other photos

Well, you dont need be an expert to see such a huge difference, difference for good, the magic of what selection can do if be done properly.

But I've wrote before that we commonly can't expect much of a first generation, right? principally when we mate very different dogs, but sometimes genetic brings us some surprise and can pop dogs like this one.

yes, its a pup from the first dog I posted here.

There are more breeders which do it in other countries as well, of course, but here I used specifically a French breeder, to people see that everywhere there will be bad and good breeders, we only need to know for chose and give value to the ones which are helping our breed.
I would like to congrats this breeder, his work and hope he will keep working like that, because I can imagine how hard should be for him.

yukidomari · 20-01-2011, 01:55

Great pictorial!

You are right - breeding is about improving the next generation. Each male should be selected to fit each female, hopefully an area where one is weak, the other is strong.

There is no such thing as a "Perfect" dog, so everyone should do their best to keep improving!

michaelundinaeichhorn · 20-01-2011, 12:06

Hi,

as I understand, the topic in the other thread was not about "bad French breeding" at all but about a few breeders mixing CSW's with wolf and Saarloos hybrids selling them with FCI pedigrees.
And it happened again just recently in France. This time two wolf mixes with FCI papers.
The puppies being sold as CSW's with FCI pedigrees.
It has nothing to do with the standard or breed selection.
Or French breeding...

Michael

elf · 20-01-2011, 15:08

Which dogs ? Which proves ?

To see more pictures, the evolution Paula shows is from Tyrane

martiou07 · 20-01-2011, 16:25

yes indeed this breeder does a work very interesting for evolution of the race in France.

I am not admiror of Tyrane, dog and blood, but the selection made with given very good performances.

Unfortunately in our country the main issue is that the majority of the breeders and futur owner stop just with titles exposures, personally, I grant to them only very little value in our country ..... in any case, a great cheer with breeding to produce these dogs interesting for genetic diversity in our country…

martiou07 · 20-01-2011, 16:46

I come to have breeder in question, he thanks that its breeding and its production is example.

Also he asks me to answer you.

However, before to hear remarks, he wants well that the things are clear, he does not act there a publicity…. but indeed just an example given by Paula.
Moreover, it specifies it is not the only one in France to make selection for genetic diversity.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 20-01-2011, 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by martiou07

Moreover, it specifies it is not the only one in France to make selection for genetic diversity.

Exactly, I know that not only Martine and Gerard do very good and ambitioned work in France.
And I know we share the same opinion about the wolf crosses registered as CSW's.
And that was what the topic was about.
We're not talking about breed selection and atypical dogs.
Mind you, these mixes are the most typical dogs ( I'm not talking about the Mutaras).

Michael

yukidomari · 20-01-2011, 18:04

-Never mind!-

Nebulosa · 20-01-2011, 21:06

Yes, the dogs are from the kennel Du Clos des Guerriers, I didnt asked the breeder as I didnt warned him that I opened this topic, I opened it by myself soon after I confirm that he had no litter announced in this webpage (to avoid discussion).

Often when we talk about a problem which is happening with a breeder in one specific country I can find comments that we're criticizing the country itself, when we were criticizing Mutaras by Passo del Lupo I've heard that we was criticizing Italian breeders, when we criticized Louve Blanche for do mixes, I also heard we're criticizing the french breeding. We all know it's not truth, no one would be unfair enough to criticize whole breeding of a country which have a huge number of breeders only because of a small group of rotten apples.

We are very clear and quite open to show and discuss and even fight because of wrong things which is happening in our breed on this forum, why not also show good exemples?

Nebulosa · 20-01-2011, 21:09

About the mixes, try to comment about it in the right topic.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 21-01-2011, 11:50

Your above mentioned topic was opened in the French forum and never meant to blame all French breeders as well as breeders from other countries

Metal · 04-02-2011, 18:06

What is cost of puppy?

Rona · 05-02-2011, 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal

What is cost of puppy?

Which puppy?

mijke · 07-02-2011, 01:41

20-01-2011, 00:56	#1
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	A bit about breed selection After read the French forum, after read some comments at Facebook and also after hear somethings about breeding, I decided to open this topic. After the topic about the french atipical dogs, probably mixed animals, I've read several times that we're criticizing the french breeding, we all know it's not truth at all. I noted that most of people have no idea about what is select a breed, what is the meaning of be a breeder, according what I could read, most of people thinks it's only make pups according to what they imagine is right and is fine, win at dogshows is only a proof that everything is fine and that the world is colorfull and perfect. The most sad is that people are being deceived by these "wanna be breeders" and helping them to keep people wrongly informed. Then I want to show what is REALLY a breed selection, and for shut up the mouths of those who said that "we're criticizing the french breeding" using a French breeder as exemple, I hope it will also help people to give value to real breeders, which help to evolve our breed and which are missing at CzW and which are being forgoten. This is the first dog, the start of what i'm talking about, I will not point here detailes about standard but who can understand it will see her good features also as the bad ones. We will soon see that the breeder had plain notion about it, contrary to some people who are blind with the word "my dog is perfect, he is the best, he won dogshows" and keep falling ever in the same mistakes for generations. Well, this is the daughter of the first dog I posted here, a bit different isn't it? She is quite wolfish comparing to her mother, but its only the first generation, normaly is when the work is only starting, you cant expect much, right? Well, I would say wrong, soon you will see. Now, here we go with the second generation selected by this breeder, daughter and son of the second dog I posted. Wow! When I saw them I couldn't believe, but let's see other photos Well, you dont need be an expert to see such a huge difference, difference for good, the magic of what selection can do if be done properly. But I've wrote before that we commonly can't expect much of a first generation, right? principally when we mate very different dogs, but sometimes genetic brings us some surprise and can pop dogs like this one. yes, its a pup from the first dog I posted here. There are more breeders which do it in other countries as well, of course, but here I used specifically a French breeder, to people see that everywhere there will be bad and good breeders, we only need to know for chose and give value to the ones which are helping our breed. I would like to congrats this breeder, his work and hope he will keep working like that, because I can imagine how hard should be for him. __________________ Last edited by Nebulosa; 20-01-2011 at 02:37.

20-01-2011, 15:08	#4
elf Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 766	Which dogs ? Which proves ? To see more pictures, the evolution Paula shows is from Tyrane __________________ http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...m/csvstat.html

20-01-2011, 16:25	#5
martiou07 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,986	yes indeed this breeder does a work very interesting for evolution of the race in France. I am not admiror of Tyrane, dog and blood, but the selection made with given very good performances. Unfortunately in our country the main issue is that the majority of the breeders and futur owner stop just with titles exposures, personally, I grant to them only very little value in our country ..... in any case, a great cheer with breeding to produce these dogs interesting for genetic diversity in our country… __________________ Last edited by martiou07; 20-01-2011 at 16:35.

20-01-2011, 16:46	#6
martiou07 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,986	I come to have breeder in question, he thanks that its breeding and its production is example. Also he asks me to answer you. However, before to hear remarks, he wants well that the things are clear, he does not act there a publicity…. but indeed just an example given by Paula. Moreover, it specifies it is not the only one in France to make selection for genetic diversity. __________________

20-01-2011, 18:04	#8
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	-Never mind!- Last edited by yukidomari; 20-01-2011 at 19:02.

20-01-2011, 01:55	#2
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Great pictorial! You are right - breeding is about improving the next generation. Each male should be selected to fit each female, hopefully an area where one is weak, the other is strong. There is no such thing as a "Perfect" dog, so everyone should do their best to keep improving!

20-01-2011, 12:06	#3
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Hi, as I understand, the topic in the other thread was not about "bad French breeding" at all but about a few breeders mixing CSW's with wolf and Saarloos hybrids selling them with FCI pedigrees. And it happened again just recently in France. This time two wolf mixes with FCI papers. The puppies being sold as CSW's with FCI pedigrees. It has nothing to do with the standard or breed selection. Or French breeding... Michael

20-01-2011, 21:06	#9
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Yes, the dogs are from the kennel Du Clos des Guerriers, I didnt asked the breeder as I didnt warned him that I opened this topic, I opened it by myself soon after I confirm that he had no litter announced in this webpage (to avoid discussion). Often when we talk about a problem which is happening with a breeder in one specific country I can find comments that we're criticizing the country itself, when we were criticizing Mutaras by Passo del Lupo I've heard that we was criticizing Italian breeders, when we criticized Louve Blanche for do mixes, I also heard we're criticizing the french breeding. We all know it's not truth, no one would be unfair enough to criticize whole breeding of a country which have a huge number of breeders only because of a small group of rotten apples. We are very clear and quite open to show and discuss and even fight because of wrong things which is happening in our breed on this forum, why not also show good exemples? __________________

20-01-2011, 21:09	#10
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	About the mixes, try to comment about it in the right topic. __________________

21-01-2011, 11:50	#11
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Your above mentioned topic was opened in the French forum and never meant to blame all French breeders as well as breeders from other countries

04-02-2011, 18:06	#12
Metal Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3	What is cost of puppy? What is cost of puppy?

07-02-2011, 01:41	#14
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	__________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!