Go Back   Wolfdog.org forum > English > Breeding

Breeding Information about breeding, selection, litters....

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 15-06-2011, 15:13   #1
Martab
Distinguished Member
 
Martab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Verona
Posts: 4,419
Default Wolfdogs with fake FCI pedigrees in Italy

Quote:
Originally Posted by lupis View Post
my friends asked ENCI how we can check if dogs are real czech wolfdog but ENCI told we must use italian club. and we can not use italian club because main officials in our club have or breed mixes too and will not help
This is not true, the Italian Club's intention is to take serious actions together with ENCI to control possible "fake pedigrees". Who are you to tell the contrary of what is happening?
__________________

Marta & GlockArian
Martab jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-06-2011, 17:10   #2
Martab
Distinguished Member
 
Martab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Verona
Posts: 4,419
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martab View Post
This is not true, the Italian Club's intention is to take serious actions together with ENCI to control possible "fake pedigrees". Who are you to tell the contrary of what is happening?
uuuups...sorry Lupis you wrote almost three years ago!
__________________

Marta & GlockArian
Martab jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2011, 13:39   #3
admin
Moderator
 
admin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martab View Post
This is not true, the Italian Club's intention is to take serious actions together with ENCI to control possible "fake pedigrees". Who are you to tell the contrary of what is happening?
Good to know. As you for sure know one of the hybrids with false pedigree is already imported to Italy. Do you plan to do something with it?
admin jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2011, 17:31   #4
Navarre
VIP Member
 
Navarre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Roma
Posts: 5,998
Send a message via Skype™ to Navarre
Default

Two members of the technical Board of italian club breed with Mutaras, one of them even with fake pedigree!
You may expect a huge help from Italian club !
__________________
Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana
Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau
Navarre jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2011, 18:23   #5
Mikael
Scandinavian Member
 
Mikael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 1,089
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navarre View Post
Two members of the technical Board of italian club breed with Mutaras, one of them even with fake pedigree!
You may expect a huge help from Italian club !
And what are FCI doing about it ???
FCI working against mixbreeding Lolll... " $$$$$£££££... Zzzzzz.... "

Best regards / Mikael
__________________
_________________________________________________
*Hronec, Rasty, Zilja * Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html
Mikael jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2011, 23:17   #6
draggar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 370
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
And what are FCI doing about it ???
FCI working against mixbreeding Lolll... " $$$$$£££££... Zzzzzz.... "

Best regards / Mikael
If the FCI is anything like AKC then they will only intervene with mixed breeds when the majority of people in that breed find it beneficial to themselves (COUGHCOUGHDALMATIONSCOUGHCOUGH),

Even puppy mills are allowed to register dogs in the AKC and join breed clubs (COUGHCOUGHHUNTECOUGHCOUGH).
draggar jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-06-2011, 23:31   #7
Mikael
Scandinavian Member
 
Mikael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 1,089
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by draggar View Post
If the FCI is anything like AKC then they will only intervene with mixed breeds when the majority of people in that breed find it beneficial to themselves (COUGHCOUGHDALMATIONSCOUGHCOUGH),

Even puppy mills are allowed to register dogs in the AKC and join breed clubs (COUGHCOUGHHUNTECOUGHCOUGH).
Nice they got there own Mixbreed dog name for all mixes
But very very hard to spell

Maybe we can ask FCI to have a breed called " Pure Mix Breed Dog "

Best regards / Mikael
__________________
_________________________________________________
*Hronec, Rasty, Zilja * Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html
Mikael jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 00:02   #8
yukidomari
Moderator
 
yukidomari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Los Angeles CA
Posts: 846
Send a message via Skype™ to yukidomari
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
Maybe we can ask FCI to have a breed called " Pure Mix Breed Dog "

Best regards / Mikael
Which country would 'own' this breed? I predict a fight
yukidomari jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 11:08   #9
Martab
Distinguished Member
 
Martab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Verona
Posts: 4,419
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
Good to know. As you for sure know one of the hybrids with false pedigree is already imported to Italy. Do you plan to do something with it?
I know that dogs suspected to have fake pedigrees came in. Some of them are well known because of Wolfdog, some others are not "openly attacked" by people writing here but nevertheless may exist.
What I want to say is that we need rules contrasting every "fake pedigree" matter

The problem is: how to prove that/if these pedigrees are fake,and what to to in case there is evidence they are.

I believe it firstly have to be checked which remedies are allowed to verify these "not clear" matters.
As you probably already know, in Italy ENCI decides everything and the Club has not any power on pedigrees.
Nevertheless, the club can propose ENCI to try to take some remedies
First of all, it has to be checked if any "control" and "measure" can be carried out:
(1) from a practical point of view (for instance: DNA test, how does it work? which entity is able to do it? can it reveal what we are looking for?), and
(2) from a legal point of view (people cannot be obliged to do this DNA test, but one thing that may be done by ENCI againts these "fake foreign pedigrees) may be to "block" the release of export pedigrees in Italy until this test is done)
This is the first and more important step to do, and the Club is keeping information on the above points
__________________

Marta & GlockArian

Last edited by Martab; 17-06-2011 at 11:12.
Martab jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 11:10   #10
Martab
Distinguished Member
 
Martab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Verona
Posts: 4,419
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navarre View Post
Two members of the technical Board of italian club breed with Mutaras, one of them even with fake pedigree!
You may expect a huge help from Italian club !
... laughing behind a computer and not doing anything concrete is unfortunately the typical Italian way of solving problems... but I don't believe it's the most efficient
__________________

Marta & GlockArian
Martab jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 11:21   #11
Navarre
VIP Member
 
Navarre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Roma
Posts: 5,998
Send a message via Skype™ to Navarre
Default

The italian club has no power on pedigree, but can have power on his members; if you can, join with member of council that think like you (there are? I think one or two but...) and take action at first against the members of breeding committee that breed with Mutaras with faked pedigree.

After that the club may have the legitimacy to ask something to their members or to ENCI.
__________________
Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana
Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau
Navarre jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 12:08   #12
Martab
Distinguished Member
 
Martab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Verona
Posts: 4,419
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navarre View Post
members of breeding committee that breed with Mutaras with faked pedigree.
After that the club may have the legitimacy to ask something to their members or to ENCI.
This is your point of view, but I don't agree with it
What I know is that they have normal LIR (RSR), and not fake pedigrees...but you were in the Club when this Mutara thing happened, not me...we already had this discussion in Italian forum and I don't believe it's of any use repeating it here

I can only answer for myself and for what I know NOW is happening in the Italian Club. Not more than that.
The Club IS activating for this problem. This is a matter of fact and is written in the boards of directors meetings minutes.
This is what I said. Simple.
You believe that the Club MUST take actions according to a certain sequence of steps you decided? Ok, that's your point of view.
But this doesn't mean that the Club is not doing what I said and hereby confirm. Fact. Not opinions.
__________________

Marta & GlockArian
Martab jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 12:31   #13
Navarre
VIP Member
 
Navarre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Roma
Posts: 5,998
Send a message via Skype™ to Navarre
Default

Ok, so stranger faked pedigree is BAD and italian faked pedigree is GOOD ?
Stranger MIX are bad and italian MIX are good ?


I don't know anything of DNA tests, but If breeders agree, I think should be easy to establish a relationship between official Mutaras offspring like Fenrir and so called "RSR pedigree" csw (Alaska) used by Passo del Lupo...

p.s.
as I said to you in ita forum, Susanna leaved the board of cclc many months before the Mutaras came to Italy.
__________________
Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana
Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau
Navarre jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 13:11   #14
Jal
Nagi e Ishta e Panuhsè
 
Jal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Grosseto, Maremma...Mainland incognita
Posts: 3,276
Send a message via MSN to Jal
Default

Facts? ... Want to talk about facts?
So I would like a little clarification. and take a step back.
we are talking about legal or illegal market? (Easily traceable thanks to the squawking of Facebook....)
Everything becomes easier once clarified this detail.
because then the words CITES and Authority recover their true meaning...
__________________
Ciao! Andrea Loredana Jacopo e Nagi & Ishta & Panuhsè

"... io sono un principe libero e ho altrettanta autorità di fare guerra al mondo intero
quanto colui che ha cento navi in mare..." Black Samuel Bellamy, Pirata

Last edited by Jal; 17-06-2011 at 13:31.
Jal jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 13:34   #15
admin
Moderator
 
admin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jal View Post
Facts? ... Want to talk about facts?
So I would like a little clarification. and take a step back.
we are talking about legal or illegal market? (Easily traceable thanks to the squawking of Facebook....)
Everything becomes easier once clarified this detail.
because then the words CITES and Authority recover their true meaning...
I not very familiar with the Italian case but I think:

a- none of the Mutara breeders should be part of the breeding commission by the CsW Club.
REASON: breeding Mutaras with CsW pedigrees shows that that people have no BASIC knowledge about this breed. As they have no knowledge about CsW they should not have ANY influence on the breeding in Italy. Because all they can teach other breeders is: HOW TO DESTROY OUR BREED.

b- I checked and it seems all Italian Mutaras are kept illegal - with violation of the European Union law. So if ENCI or Italian Club do not want to clarify this case maybe the Italian officials responsible to keeping to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora will be willing to help?
admin jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 13:39   #16
Martab
Distinguished Member
 
Martab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Verona
Posts: 4,419
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
No, it is something totally different. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the Mutaras were registered in Italy on the official way. Maybe it is moral not correct ...
This is also what I knew! And as far as I heard the LIR/RSR has been given by Czech Republic judges at first, not Italian judges. But this doesn't make much difference. It can be criticized, but it's done 2according to the rules"
That's why I don't understand why Navarre or others talk about fake pedigrees with Mutaras
Then, in hypothesis, also these "suspected" dogs from La Louvre Blanche or others (even if the pedigree will be "annulled") could take LIR/RSR pedigree, but it's different, as people which would want to use them, would know that they are using "CsW type kind of dog" without having any certainty about their genealogy. As it is for any LIR/RSR dog.
But this is permitted by the rules. They cannot be considered "fake pedigrees"
Completely different is believing that a dog has a certain genealogy, when it's not the case
__________________

Marta & GlockArian
Martab jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-06-2011, 13:48   #17
Navarre
VIP Member
 
Navarre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Roma
Posts: 5,998
Send a message via Skype™ to Navarre
Default

As far we know Alaska was this dog:http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/dbase/d5570.html
In this photo she partecipated to an expo' (we were there) and she wins CAC, i think she had a pedigree (or not?)

After that she disappear and a very strange female, named Alaska, was registered in Italy with (new?) RSR pedigree.

I call it a "fake pedigree", rules (broken) or not.
__________________
Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana
Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau
Navarre jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-06-2011, 13:17   #18
admin
Moderator
 
admin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martab View Post
But this is permitted by the rules. They cannot be considered "fake pedigrees"
Completely different is believing that a dog has a certain genealogy, when it's not the case
But you have already a dog with fake pedigree in Italy:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/11911

It is the illegal F1 cross with fake FCI pedigree from Finland.
admin jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-06-2011, 13:26   #19
admin
Moderator
 
admin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Navarre View Post
I call it a "fake pedigree", rules (broken) or not.
It is a pity but it seems you are right - I think we start to have problems also with Italian breeders. Yesterday and today I received two emails from different sources with information about very suspicious "Italian" dog which lives in France right now. The dog is a AWD and is totally different than the rest of the litter. "Funny" - it was sold from Italy to "de la Louve blanche" kennel. (all suspicios cases lead ALWAYS to the same source and the same persons are involved)

It seems that this Wolfdog was replaced by a American Wolfdog. The question is if it was done with the knowlegde of the breeder (if he chated the pedigree) or the dog was replaced with AWD already in France (without knowledge of the Italian breeder).

It is about this dog:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/11123

I spoke with some breeders and they confirmed that the puppy on the first photo (which I received from the breeder directly) DO NOT MATCH with the dog which photos are put later by the French breeder.

And when I look on the photos of the puppies of Blood's Lykan - they are 100% Saarloos alike (they are not purebreed). I must come to the same conclusion that we have another case of pedigree cheating in France (Italy?).
admin jest offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-06-2011, 19:49   #20
Ricky's Wolf
Distinguished Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin View Post
It is a pity but it seems you are right - I think we start to have problems also with Italian breeders. Yesterday and today I received two emails from different sources with information about very suspicious "Italian" dog which lives in France right now. The dog is a AWD and is totally different than the rest of the litter. "Funny" - it was sold from Italy to "de la Louve blanche" kennel. (all suspicios cases lead ALWAYS to the same source and the same persons are involved)

It seems that this Wolfdog was replaced by a American Wolfdog. The question is if it was done with the knowlegde of the breeder (if he chated the pedigree) or the dog was replaced with AWD already in France (without knowledge of the Italian breeder).

It is about this dog:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/11123

I spoke with some breeders and they confirmed that the puppy on the first photo (which I received from the breeder directly) DO NOT MATCH with the dog which photos are put later by the French breeder.

And when I look on the photos of the puppies of Blood's Lykan - they are 100% Saarloos alike (they are not purebreed). I must come to the same conclusion that we have another case of pedigree cheating in France (Italy?).
Good evening,
I feel duty-bound at this point to clarify my position on this matter, especially for the respect I have and that I receive from many people who are part of our race, by the owners to breeders or enthusiasts

Admin: before you write on the forum, was not a problem to write to me on my email asking for explanations.
I would have responded and informed of my position without any problems since I have always worked with the site wolfdog.org and as I have shown forever.
I have no secrets of nothing people for my work.

I give the dog to Frank Capiez to 60 days, with all the necessary documentation as I have always done with all my puppies.
The dog is given a sweet and beautiful female puppy that you see in the picture:


The regular pedigree puppy in question came to my house after several months, because in Italy in the past to make a Pedigree ENCI we put 8 / 10 months, and I personally sent it to Frank who later I confirmed that it received.
In website of ENCI www.enci.it if you search "libro genealogico" you can find all dogs whit pedigree, also Bloond's of pedigree.

Seeing the pictures and seeing the dog in January I can not say that's Bloond resembles his brothers and sisters because it is different in appearance.
I am also thinking of why a person trip from Paris to Rome, pay the dog and incurs expenditure and change it?

IF something happened or if there was, as you say, some exchange is important that everyone knows that I do not know anything. The puppy that I have given to Frank is the photo.

I regret a little 'we have been, even if indirectly, any doubts about my work and that is why I am here writing in respect to knowledge of all.

Many people know who I am and how I work and I hope that many other people in the future will have the chance to know me and my way of working.
I hope to have been clear in making you understand my position in aswert at your post.

Greetings all

Last edited by Ricky's Wolf; 28-06-2011 at 19:54.
Ricky's Wolf jest offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Wolfdog.org