Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
1)
Strano...io conosco 2 cani Italiani (non so se ce ne sono altri) usati da due allevatori "stranieri" ed entrambi i cani erano "italian stlye" perchè venivano dallo stesso allevamento e uno addirittura fratello della femmina "collie" della foto ed entrambi gli allevatori di "punta" nel panorama CLC (non il primo cretino con una femmina che capita...Z molu es e Zlata Palz) quindi mi sento di dire che l'affermazione sopra non la ritengo proprio corretta.
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Massimo - you don't understand me... It is not about NOT USING the Italian dogs. But it is about the risk....
I'm not talking nobody will use Italian dogs from "Collie lines". I'm saying nobody will PROMOTE such "version" of CLC...nobody will call them nice and typical...
You mentioned two cases but there were more...
One try to import Italian champion blood to CZ finished with the result HD-D /the female was sold to nowere after it
/
I heard about another try - the dog did'n reached the minimum of the size. Was not bonitated and is also gone...
In one case you mentioned I heard pretty bad opinions about the mating in this country because mother of the litter is a female which has good character and also gave puppies with great character . But in this one litter with Italian male she gave one dog with the coat on the "border" between CLC coat and longhaired. And all the puppiest with only ONE exception have pretty shy character... And not the owners are responsible for it because the puppies are in good hands... So they have again a good argument against some italian lines...
About Zlata Palz... Masimo, Michael is one of the breeders which breed dogs 100% according the Slovak lines... Dogs with Slovakian wolfish look. And IT MAKE his kennel so well known...
He knows about the problem with the coat as it was already discussed on the German forum...
No, he didn't change his mind and didn't started to tell "CzW must be a dog collie like"
There is something else - his dogs have very strong genes which have the power to "kill" the "colliness" of the stud dog.... You will see the puppies will be no more "Italian style"... So what Zlata Palz can reach? Michael can introduce new blood but
without the negative aspects like narrow heads... You do not believe? ASK HIM
You know we have similar case - for Jolly we can use even Dachshund and the puppies will still have great indexes. So I can use the worstest Italian Collie with very short legs without being affraid the puppies will look like the father...
Risky but possible...
And the same you see already in Italy... Some people have the Italian Collies dogs but thanks to nice imports, nice matings they reached very nice results... Puppies which are no more "Italian style" but very TYPICAL CLCs...
So again - it is not about what you HAVE. But what you GET. I know very beautifull females which were covered without thinking over and the puppies are HORRIBLE. But I also know not so nice females which owners planned everything and the puppies they get are simple BEAUTIFUL.
I don't want to criticize the DOGS but the BREEDERS which sometime show even the basic lack of knowledge about genetics, dogs, standard and heredity...Or for money, fame pr any other stupid realy want to force their own "style" even if it is not compatible with the bree standard...
I'm telling you again - I'm not again Italian breeders. Even the Colie breeders. And for me the Italian Collie are not the worstest CzW types I know... I think the old Czech types with their heavy German Shepherd heads and bodies are MUCH worser because there is NOTHING nice on them. Also the week French CzW with Saarloos alike character are worser too. In Poland we have even both in one: dogs which look like Old Czech Shepherd Dogs but are so shy like Saarloos....
But in all four cases we still are talking about UNTYPICAL types... The Italian Collie is still not the right type - not wolfish in look, not typical in the exterier...
Quote:
Originally Posted by massimo
2)Anche qui sorrido:
Sempre la femmina italiana "collie" della foto è stata giudicata positivamente da giudici esperti SLOVACCHI...(e per positivamente intendo PRIMA Ecc della sua classe in un europeo giudicata da Oscar Dora) forse perchè la concorrenza era scarsa? forse perchè il giudice era scarso? boh...
ad ogni modo prima di istruire gli ALTRI giudici dovrebbero istruirsi loro...oppure quello che dice Margo è semplicemente la SUA opinione che io rispetto anche se spesso non condivido.
Ripeto non difendo nessuno perchè non ho nulla da spartire con queste persone solo che quando leggo "inesattezze" che possono essere fraintese per verità ci tengo a sottolineare le cose con cui non sono d'accordo.
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Massimo, please do not use Oskar Dora as argument because it were Italian owners which called him 'nationalist' because he do not hide he don't like the Italian Collies...
He is one of the judges which will give on the bonitation "very good" note to a dog which has no other faults beside not proper body format... So please do not try to say he loves the Dachhunds...
He bred dogs like Gaius Dor so please do not try to write he preffers narrow weak heads...
And he starts bredding again... No, he don't bought italian champion blood
but took female which is 100% Slovak type... The type which is something TOTALLY different then Italian Collies...
Next time talk to him - he will explain you what is important for CLC... You will see you will mention points I listed...
I think he will even add some more for sure...
I also never wrote the italian female is ugly or something like this... No, she is nice showing and alway very good prepared and showed only very good condition... And I can assure you I will also let the female to win on some dog shows... She is sometimes really the best in the competition... BUT forget I will agree with you and say for me it is the best female I saw... She is still very far away from the look of a REAL WOLF... Sorry...
If you try to say Italian Collies are
wolfish - no problem... Please show me some Wolves (Canis Lupus Lupus) which have very long bodies, short legs, very narrow and weak heads... And long coat (one and the same lenght over whole body). Because so far every photo of European Wolves made in Italy, France, Germany, Czech Republic, Slovakian or Poland only confirm what I'm writing...
Maybe it is the reason why I never met a Slovak breeder saying: I would like to breed dogs like the dogs from kennel XXX (Italian Collie style)...
Sure you can say it is not true and it is only my opinion... My word against your...
But the solution is simple - you can ask directly the judges you mentioned. Also the breeders in the origin country... So far from the whole big group I know only one who will be for 100% "Italian Collies are the best"...
Yes, this person hates the Slovak dogs more than evething else on the world...
Ooops... sorry. I forgot the second person - Czech judge which was so blind to give "excellent" EVEN to dog like Sangria....
And again: don't be angry.... Nobody says "Italian dogs are horrible"... Every time we meet us in Slovakia, Germany or Czech Republic I hear "I saw on Internet / On the dog show / nice Italian dog. What do you think about it...".... Sometimes I add the photos and I say to Przemek "Look what a great dog". In many cases the reality is even better and the dogs is even better that on the photo... People from abroad really look on the Italian dogs... But you know... You will be surprised which dog names are mendioned...
Now in the end no more theory but practise...
Why do you think there are so many Sarka's dogs in every European country and almost none from the "Best Extra Super Italian kennels"? Maybe it is exactly the point? That people like her dogs because of different matings, variety of the blood, interesting pedigrees and keeping the international "standards" like HD-results and paying attention to reach dogs which look according the standard? Maybe it is exactly because she DO NOT want to create her OWN "Sarka's Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs" but breeds dogs the same way the breeders do in Czech Republic and Slovakia?
If you say I wrote before only MY OWN opinion so explain me why people hadle like it? Why the dogs from Sarka's kennel has bee taken even to Czech Republic and nobody wants to import the Italian Style dogs /exceptions make the rule/? Maybe exactly because the Collie Style is no welcome?