Differences in bonitations...

[Mirkawolf]

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland?

[loco]

I have seen more dogs under the breed standard in the database .
And do have bonitation and claimed that they are breedable, and the bonitation was not in Poland .

Groette Martine.

[rocco]

Zitat von Mirkawolf

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland?

In Slovak 64 is OK for male.....sad but true.

[jasmine]

Zitat von rocco

In Slovak 64 is OK for male.....sad but true.

NO....in Slovakia...if the dogs under the standard couldn't be P1 or P3!
64 cm tall male is not a breeding male!! He is under the standard!

[Margo]

Zitat von jasmine

NO....in Slovakia...if the dogs under the standard couldn't be P1 or P3!
64 cm tall male is not a breeding male!! He is under the standard!

Edith, if you think you are right why you never asked why dog from your kennel (Crying Wolf Falco) is still P5 (note "good") even if he has two disqualification faults (size under minimum - 64 cm) and character (shy - Ob)? It was EXACTLY the same case.... He is very nice dog which is under minimum size. The note was lower only because of his character... When he would have perfect character like Daimon have also Falco would be A64 Of R1 P3....
So why you wonder first right now...

Zitat von Mirkawolf

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland?

Dear Mirka, as a breeder and experienced owner of CzW you should know it is not the only case. Please do not sneer at "different standard for CSW in Poland" because EVERYBODY who has a little bit more to do with bonitations in Slovakia and Czech Republic know such cases... You will find over 20 dogs which were 64 cm and get the notes "P1" (excellent), P3 ("very good") or P5 ("good").
NO, the bonitations were not in Poland. They were in Slovakia and Czech Republic...
Why such notes were and are possible? I wrote it already in the last post...

[jasmine]

Zitat von Margo

Edith, if you think you are right why you never asked why dog from your kennel (Crying Wolf Falco) is still P5 (note "good") even if he has two disqualification faults (size under minimum - 64 cm) and character (shy - Ob)? It was EXACTLY the same case.... He is very nice dog which is under minimum size. The note was lower only because of his character... When he would have perfect character like Daimon have also Falco would be A64 Of R1 P3....
So why you wonder first right now...

Margo, My question was not against you or your dog(s)! I was just wondering.............if we have the same bonitacions...how could be big differences ??????....an in this case how could be happened that some bonitacions in some countries are not accepted.........

about HD: yes...it would be good if we could see the hd results in bonitacion code....or...the dogs could be bonitated and bred just if they have got official hd results (like in Hungary and some other countries)....

Edit


PS: I looked through the studdog list and I couldn't find dogs under the standard with P1 and/or P3 code. But maybe it is my fault.........

[Hanka]

To Vaiva:
In bonitation codes are only defects. If czech breed comission (or bonitation comission) see some small exterier defects what have not character of defects, we write it to note only. Is not right, dogs with diskvalification defects have it in note, but no in codes. (In note you can read open lips, but in real it is not Really open lips, but only very little. It is just like: "danger-children of this dogs can have open lips when somebody will combinate two dogs with this small mistake". Or in note can be some mistake or defect what has not letter in bonitation code.....
And: all members of Czech club can see full bonitation codes + NOTES on clubpage. We have it!!!! already.
So everybody in Czech can know all about dog, what somebody wants know....On foto can be perfect dog, he can have perfect code, But in note you can read something more....
In other countries it does not exist, I think......
Do it Vaiva, make oficial club in your country (for wolfdogs), keep conditions for breeding and "our" breed will be better.

[Margo]

Zitat von jasmine

Margo, My question was not against you or your dog(s)! I was just wondering..............

Edith - if something has four legs, is barking like a dog and looking like a dog it IS a DOG....

I hope you understand if I will not believe you it is not personal... I really will not believe that person which bred so many dogs and is insider in this breed for a long time never checked the list of OWN dogs and didn't saw that Falco passed bonitation although he is 64 cm... I do not believe you never checked the list of Slovak stud dogs where since YEARS you can see Iran which is 64 cm and already had puppies by such famous Slovak kennels like Radov dvor or spod Ďumbiera....
So I'm really astonished that you "discovered" the problem first right now...

Zitat von jasmine

PS: I looked through the studdog list and I couldn't find dogs under the standard with P1 and/or P3 code. But maybe it is my fault.........

Please read the words of Martine:

Zitat von loco

I have seen more dogs under the breed standard in the database .
And do have bonitation and claimed that they are breedable, and the bonitation was not in Poland .

The list is long but few example just for you:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/3588
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1360
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/745
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/2851
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/2822

[Margo]

Zitat von Mirkawolf

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland?

Mirka - let it be.... Or should we start topic about Czech bonitations... And number of Czech breeders which breed with dogs with serious disqalification faults... EVEN YOU....

Don't forget one of the last bonitations in Prague made by 2 famous CzW judges and 2 Czech breeding comittee members where there were 10 males and ALL of them get descritpion "wrong indexes", one get "open lips" and one "untypical movement". ALL THESE are dysqualification faults for Czw. Untypical movement is additionaly VERY serious one .. but... ALL of these dogs get from CZECH breeding comittee notes "EXCELLENT" or "VERY GOOD". Not even one was P14...
Is there a different standard for CSW in Czech Republic?

[massimo]

Zitat von Margo

Mirka - let it be.... Or should we start topic about Czech bonitations... And number of Czech breeders which breed with dogs with serious disqalification faults... EVEN YOU....

Don't forget one of the last bonitations in Prague made by 2 famous CzW judges and 2 Czech breeding comittee members where there were 10 males and ALL of them get descritpion "wrong indexes", one get "open lips" and one "untypical movement". ALL THESE are dysqualification faults for Czw. Untypical movement is additionaly VERY serious one .. but... ALL of these dogs get from CZECH breeding comittee notes "EXCELLENT" or "VERY GOOD". Not even one was P14...
Is there a different standard for CSW in Czech Republic?

Margo, I really don't understand.
Mirka's question was reasonnable.
To reply by commenting the wrong czech bonitations is not a reply, it's an attach.
Please open a new thread with Czech bonitation faults if necessary, but can you reply to the question? is 64cm allowed in Slovakia? it's important for our breed to know, don't you think? I don't care the name of the dog, really, he could be my own personal dog as it counts to me, but to know if 1cm tolerance is accepted during bonitation is important.
Is it possible, maybe, that this bonitation was not done according to slovak standards (JUST LIKE IN ITALY) so it gets a nice X like italian ones?
I see no index format on the Bonitation codes as was done in Hronec.
Either the dogs all had perfect codes or the new slovak bonitation rules were not applied in poland.
Another question to answer. Sorry we ask you Margo because you organized the event.
Great pics by the way, it's clear you all had fun (damn me, why couldn't I come... I miss Zubrowka!)
massimo

[Mikael]

Way do we have bonitation at all if we dont follow the same rules ???

and now to me it seams that a show resalt would say more...

on a show a dog whit "Untypical movement" or "Open libs" would not get a god spot, I hope !!!

But I do realy think 64cm is not the bigest question, to me it is more important that the dogs that we breed on are healthy.

Regards / Mikael

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

As far as I know sometimes dogs with 1 cm (!) under standart high are bonitated - if they don´t have other faults - and allowed to breed once under special control of the offsprings. The reason is that many small dogs have offspring of normal high (and the other way round).
Something that I find quite sensible, as Mikael I think there are more important things than 1cm of heigh and I think bad movements for example are of much higher importance for the breed itself.
Another questions is if the dog should get a P3 or P5 then.

And I personally think it is more than time to stop the very stupid discussion if the Czech Club is doing things better or the Slovakian one. The same started in the health topic, the Slovakian Club has a breeding comission like the Czech has and the wonderful Czech breeding comission has made some decisions I only can wonder about. Both countries have their problems and have made their faults. I am really fed up with this, it is of absolutly no benefit for the breed.
And there was a Czech member in the breeding comission as far as I can see.

Ina

[Vaiva]

In fact I do not see such a big problem in that 1 cm If a male has a good character, is brave, nice with people, moves good and is a typical CsV, that 1 cm is nothing

[Pavel]

Zitat von michaelundinaeichhorn

As far as I know sometimes dogs with 1 cm (!) under standart high are bonitated - if they don´t have other faults - and allowed to breed once under special control of the offsprings. The reason is that many small dogs have offspring of normal high (and the other way round).

Its the basic problem. Breding commision have roghts to let breeding on ANY dog, if is necessary. ANY means e.g. dog with heavy HD or P14 in code. But in this cases is using such dog limited abd the offsprings are under control. But if dog with disqualified fault get code P1-5, then nobody have rights limited the breeder such dog using without control. Little other situation is in CZ or SK, where any pair must have agreement from breeding commision and nobody can registrate puppies without sign of club. But in the countries, where is breed absolutelly free, is it very danger praxis.

[Margo]

Zitat von massimo

Margo, I really don't understand.
Mirka's question was reasonnable.

Sorry Massimo - I should explain it to you (and all of you) before.... I answered this way because Mirka's only intention in this case was to attack me because Daimon is a dog from my kennel... And I see other breeders which are happy because they have FINALLY the possiblity to attack...

At the moment we have huge disscusion about this topic on polish forum which Mirka can easily follow but you know... polish forum is not easy to understand for everyone so she started the same topic here to have more public... But no problem - I can disscuss the same things on two forums simultaneously....

But now I leave personal attacks - if someone has any problem with me it is his/her private problem... I go back to the facts - I will try to answer some questions but I don't think I will be able to answer all of them already today.... So next parts will follow later...

[Gaga]

The question why the result is P1 not P14 is a question to the committee. Write an official letter to all c 3 persons of committee and ask for a response. The judge decides about the bonitations codes, not the organizer of the meeting

[Mirkawolf]

I have asked this question here, because exactly the same question was asked on that very Polish forum, that Margo mentions, by Hanka Kaufmanova. And surprisingly , her question was not only unanswered, but apparently also erased from the discussion - cause I did not find it again.
I suppose that Hanka, as a member of the Czech breeding committee is also interested only in personal attacks to Margo and her breeding? What a paranoid thinking...

[Pavel]

Zitat von Gaga

Write an official letter to all c 3 persons of committee and ask for a response. The judge decides about the bonitations codes, not the organizer of the meeting

Sure, it will be a thema by next common meeting of CZ and SK club. Here is discussion because some people defend this praxis and trying to evidence, that dogs under standard minimum high are OK and can be using normally in breed (code P1-5).

[Dharkwolf]

Zitat von Margo

Sorry Massimo - I should explain it to you (and all of you) before.... I answered this way because Mirka's only intention in this case was to attack me because Daimon is a dog from my kennel... And I see other breeders which are happy because they have FINALLY the possiblity to attack...

Margo this assumption is unsubstantiated and obviously not what was intended.

1) Neither the name of the dog nor of the kennel were mentioned (which would obviously would have been the case if the intention was to attack your kennel.

2) Anyone who knows Mirka knows she never holds her tongue. If she had intended to attack a kennel and the breeding practices it would have been very clearly stated as such.

It is sad to see that the level of paranoia on these forums stops people from talking about the dogs, the bonitations and the problems which arise from them.

Margo you have still not formally withdrawn the accusation which you have levelled against the kennel Vlci Sen. I will ask again - either withdraw or substantiate your accusation.

[Mirkawolf]

Zitat von Margo

Mirka - let it be.... Or should we start topic about Czech bonitations... And number of Czech breeders which breed with dogs with serious disqalification faults... EVEN YOU....

Lol, can you tell me, which dogs with disqualifying faults I breed? I have one female 10 years old and spayed and other one P1 but with heavy dysplasia
I am not insane to breed on dogs with disqualifying faults!
The only thing I am breeding at home are mice, you can come and check them out