Differences in bonitations...

Margo · 04-09-2008, 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Margo, I really don't understand.
Mirka's question was reasonnable.

Sorry Massimo - I should explain it to you (and all of you) before....

I answered this way because Mirka's only intention in this case was to attack me because Daimon is a dog from my kennel...

And I see other breeders which are happy because they have FINALLY the possiblity to attack...

At the moment we have huge disscusion about this topic on polish forum which Mirka can easily follow but you know... polish forum is not easy to understand for everyone so she started the same topic here to have more public...

But no problem - I can disscuss the same things on two forums simultaneously....

But now I leave personal attacks - if someone has any problem with me it is his/her private problem...

I go back to the facts - I will try to answer some questions but I don't think I will be able to answer all of them already today.... So next parts will follow later...

Gaga · 04-09-2008, 23:02

The question why the result is P1 not P14 is a question to the committee. Write an official letter to all c 3 persons of committee and ask for a response. The judge decides about the bonitations codes, not the organizer of the meeting

Mirkawolf · 04-09-2008, 23:44

I have asked this question here, because exactly the same question was asked on that very Polish forum, that Margo mentions, by Hanka Kaufmanova. And surprisingly

, her question was not only unanswered, but apparently also erased from the discussion - cause I did not find it again.

I suppose that Hanka, as a member of the Czech breeding committee is also interested only in personal attacks to Margo and her breeding?

What a paranoid thinking...

Margo · 05-09-2008, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

And surprisingly

, her question was not only unanswered, but apparently also erased from the discussion - cause I did not find it again.

I suppose that Hanka, as a member of the Czech breeding committee is also interested only in personal attacks to Margo and her breeding?

What a paranoid thinking...

Dear Mirka - before you write something please LOOK on the polish forum twice. NOBODY removed ANYTHING. Your words are EXACTLY "a paranoid thinking..."

Margo · 05-09-2008, 00:40

(Gaga made good suggestion what to do if someone is interested for Daimon. My answer will be in generally)

FIRST I want to make small introduction:
The whole thing is not only about the one dog (even if for some people it is good reason for personal attacks) but about the old story about the different type of judgements by the bonitations in Slovakia and Czech Republic...

It is the old war which Ina mentioned - who is right, who makes the bonitations better...
But it is also an answer for Ina's words "together with a lot of cases where visible mistakes that don´t get meassured like not correct ears, bad mask, bad back line ore angulation that didn´t get mentioned in the code of some dogs out of whatever reason."
Why the faults are not written in the code? What are the reasons? Exactly because of the different way of judging...

HOW should look the bonitation...?
On the bonitation card the judge should write the size of the dog, judge its character and make the measurements. If a dog has any faults it should be written to the bonitation code (if the fault is good visible) or into the "notes" (if the fault is there but it is small (slight)). After it there should be judgement based on the indexes (proportions), and number and "size" of faults. That's the theory...

...BUT...

On the Slovak bonitation the jugde base the bonitation code end note on all the parts... (bonitation code + weight of the faults + their number + character test + indexes).

For example he can give a very bad note to a dog which has no other faults than the wrong indexes. So dog which bonitation code is sometimes PERFECT (As Of) can get note only "very good" or even "disqualification" only for the wrong proportions. On the other hand a dog which for example character test was not so good can still be even 'excellent' if during the bonitation it was good visible the dog has much better character than the bonitation shows... It is the same with all other faults... They are judged regarding to their number and weight...

In Czech Republic counts ONLY what has been written in the bonitation code (faults and character test). And there are many things which will disqualify a dog. On the other hand it doesn't matter if the dog has wrong indexes and it doesn't count what has beeen written in the "notes".... (see the case I already mentioned)

How it works...?
Let's take the serious fault which according to the Hartl's words disqualify a dog and makes him P14 - I mean "open lips" - code D12. And an theoretical example...

In Slovakia dog with open lips will be judged like this:
1) The fault is small so it has been written only to the "notes". The dog has no other faults... So the bonitation code will be As Of P3 (bonitation code 'excellent' but because of the 'open lips' written in the notes the dog has the end note "very good").
2) The fault is good visible and it has been written to the bonitation code. The dog has no other faults... So the bonitation will be As D12 Of P5 (bonitation code "good" because of the serious fault).
So the dog can be P3 (very good) or P5 (good).

Let see the same case in Czech Republic.
1) The fault is small so it has been written only to the "notes". The dog has no other faults... Here the bonitation will be much better than in Slovakia As Of P1 (bonitation code 'excellent' and also the end note "excellent" because nobody cares for this what is written in the notes).
2) The fault is good visible and it has been written to the bonitation code. The dog has no other faults... The bonitation SHOULD be As D12 Of P14 (bonitation code "disqualification" because it is so there). So what the breeding comittee will make? The SERIOUS fault will be NOT written to the code because nobody want to throw away this dog from breeding - breeding comittee will write it in to the notes and forget it... Such dog with REALLY SERIOUS problem will have the bonitation code As Of P1.
The same dog will be here P1 (excellent).

Ina, you asked why SERIOUS faults like you mentioned are not in the bonitation code. Exactly because of this: every of these fault will result with P5 (note "good") or P14 ("disqualification"). And because the Czech breeding comittee must keep to their own rules they will do everything in order "not to break dogs career" and hide the faults so they have no influence on the end note. They will hide everything in the "notes" or forget the faults exist...

The same is with size of the dogs... If the dog is a little bit smaller but perfect at all the slovak judge can still give the good note. So you can see some dogs which are 64 cm but still P3 or P5.
But the Czech comittee must follow their rules and give P14 to such dog. What they do in such case? They will ADD an 1 cm and write A65.... or even 66cm because it looks better... (everybody knows such cases).
The result? Dog with 64 cm in Slovakia has breeding rights but "only" the note "very good". In Czech Republic the same dog will appear with the 65-66cm and note EXCELLENT....
So which bonitation is more strict?

Now the question is what is better?
When the bonitation comittee writes all found faults into the bonitation code (like it is in Slovakia) because good dog will still have the right to be stud dog.
Or it is better that the bonitation comittee hides more serious faults because if they appear in the bonitation code the dog MUST get P14...?

Vaiva · 05-09-2008, 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo

For example he can give a very bad note to a dog which has no other faults than the wrong indexes. So dog which bonitation code is sometimes PERFECT (As Of) can get note only "very good" or even "disqualification" only for the wrong proportions. On the other hand a dog which for example character test was not so good can still be even 'excellent' if during the bonitation it was good visible the dog has much better character than the bonitation shows... It is the same with all other faults... They are judged regarding to their number and weight...

And maybe it would be a good idea to announce the notes, written in the bonitation card, but not in the code? Let's say here, on wolfdog.org?

Margo · 05-09-2008, 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaiva

And maybe it would be a good idea to announce the notes, written in the bonitation card, but not in the code? Let's say here, on wolfdog.org?

We plan to do it but many notes are gone because nobody published them (Czech club started to publish it first since few years).

There is other problem - you can not compare the notes in the slovak bonitation cards where you have listed really SMALL faults and the czech bonitation cards where you have listed even SERIOUS faults which were not put in the bonitation code because of the danger the dogs can get P14 because of it...

Pavel · 05-09-2008, 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaga

Write an official letter to all c 3 persons of committee and ask for a response. The judge decides about the bonitations codes, not the organizer of the meeting

Sure, it will be a thema by next common meeting of CZ and SK club. Here is discussion because some people defend this praxis and trying to evidence, that dogs under standard minimum high are OK and can be using normally in breed (code P1-5).

Margo · 05-09-2008, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pavel

Sure, it will be a thema by next common meeting of CZ and SK club. Here is discussion because some people defend this praxis and trying to evidence, that dogs under standard minimum high are OK and can be using normally in breed (code P1-5).

I think we should speak about something else...

So far we have situation like this:
Slovak bonitation include ALL faults but for Czech people it looks that dogs which shoult be P14 get better notes (P1, P3, P5).
Czech bonitation is hiding many serious faults because of the problem that if it is on the code the dog must be P14.

You know what is the REAL problem? It is the code "Px"

Remove it as many people suggest... After such step there will be no fight about the Slovak bonitation and the czech comittee will have no more any reason to hide the faults...

And the MAIN GOAL will be fullfiled - in the bonitation you will REALLY have all BIG faults and SMALL FAULTS will be written into the notes... They will write it because NOBODY will have any OFFICIAL reasons to hide them....

Dharkwolf · 05-09-2008, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo

Sorry Massimo - I should explain it to you (and all of you) before....

I answered this way because Mirka's only intention in this case was to attack me because Daimon is a dog from my kennel...

And I see other breeders which are happy because they have FINALLY the possiblity to attack...

Margo this assumption is unsubstantiated and obviously not what was intended.

1) Neither the name of the dog nor of the kennel were mentioned (which would obviously would have been the case if the intention was to attack your kennel.

2) Anyone who knows Mirka knows she never holds her tongue. If she had intended to attack a kennel and the breeding practices it would have been very clearly stated as such.

It is sad to see that the level of paranoia on these forums stops people from talking about the dogs, the bonitations and the problems which arise from them.

Margo you have still not formally withdrawn the accusation which you have levelled against the kennel Vlci Sen. I will ask again - either withdraw or substantiate your accusation.

04-09-2008, 23:02	#2
Gaga VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Dientitos Posts: 6,856	The question why the result is P1 not P14 is a question to the committee. Write an official letter to all c 3 persons of committee and ask for a response. The judge decides about the bonitations codes, not the organizer of the meeting __________________ Hodowca psów to nie funkcja, to nie zawód i nie nazwa hobby - to tytuł i godność. Trzeba na nią zasłużyć i dobrze piastować. チェイタン。

04-09-2008, 23:44	#3
Mirkawolf Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Brussels Posts: 556	I have asked this question here, because exactly the same question was asked on that very Polish forum, that Margo mentions, by Hanka Kaufmanova. And surprisingly , her question was not only unanswered, but apparently also erased from the discussion - cause I did not find it again. I suppose that Hanka, as a member of the Czech breeding committee is also interested only in personal attacks to Margo and her breeding? What a paranoid thinking... __________________ :: :: :: Cira & Ali & Tulip :: :: :: http://vlcisen.mirkawolf.com

05-09-2008, 00:40	#5
Margo Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Późna Posts: 1,281	(Gaga made good suggestion what to do if someone is interested for Daimon. My answer will be in generally) FIRST I want to make small introduction: The whole thing is not only about the one dog (even if for some people it is good reason for personal attacks) but about the old story about the different type of judgements by the bonitations in Slovakia and Czech Republic... It is the old war which Ina mentioned - who is right, who makes the bonitations better... But it is also an answer for Ina's words "together with a lot of cases where visible mistakes that don´t get meassured like not correct ears, bad mask, bad back line ore angulation that didn´t get mentioned in the code of some dogs out of whatever reason." Why the faults are not written in the code? What are the reasons? Exactly because of the different way of judging... HOW should look the bonitation...? On the bonitation card the judge should write the size of the dog, judge its character and make the measurements. If a dog has any faults it should be written to the bonitation code (if the fault is good visible) or into the "notes" (if the fault is there but it is small (slight)). After it there should be judgement based on the indexes (proportions), and number and "size" of faults. That's the theory... ...BUT... On the Slovak bonitation the jugde base the bonitation code end note on all the parts... (bonitation code + weight of the faults + their number + character test + indexes). For example he can give a very bad note to a dog which has no other faults than the wrong indexes. So dog which bonitation code is sometimes PERFECT (As Of) can get note only "very good" or even "disqualification" only for the wrong proportions. On the other hand a dog which for example character test was not so good can still be even 'excellent' if during the bonitation it was good visible the dog has much better character than the bonitation shows... It is the same with all other faults... They are judged regarding to their number and weight... In Czech Republic counts ONLY what has been written in the bonitation code (faults and character test). And there are many things which will disqualify a dog. On the other hand it doesn't matter if the dog has wrong indexes and it doesn't count what has beeen written in the "notes".... (see the case I already mentioned) How it works...? Let's take the serious fault which according to the Hartl's words disqualify a dog and makes him P14 - I mean "open lips" - code D12. And an theoretical example... In Slovakia dog with open lips will be judged like this: 1) The fault is small so it has been written only to the "notes". The dog has no other faults... So the bonitation code will be As Of P3 (bonitation code 'excellent' but because of the 'open lips' written in the notes the dog has the end note "very good"). 2) The fault is good visible and it has been written to the bonitation code. The dog has no other faults... So the bonitation will be As D12 Of P5 (bonitation code "good" because of the serious fault). So the dog can be P3 (very good) or P5 (good). Let see the same case in Czech Republic. 1) The fault is small so it has been written only to the "notes". The dog has no other faults... Here the bonitation will be much better than in Slovakia As Of P1 (bonitation code 'excellent' and also the end note "excellent" because nobody cares for this what is written in the notes). 2) The fault is good visible and it has been written to the bonitation code. The dog has no other faults... The bonitation SHOULD be As D12 Of P14 (bonitation code "disqualification" because it is so there). So what the breeding comittee will make? The SERIOUS fault will be NOT written to the code because nobody want to throw away this dog from breeding - breeding comittee will write it in to the notes and forget it... Such dog with REALLY SERIOUS problem will have the bonitation code As Of P1. The same dog will be here P1 (excellent). Ina, you asked why SERIOUS faults like you mentioned are not in the bonitation code. Exactly because of this: every of these fault will result with P5 (note "good") or P14 ("disqualification"). And because the Czech breeding comittee must keep to their own rules they will do everything in order "not to break dogs career" and hide the faults so they have no influence on the end note. They will hide everything in the "notes" or forget the faults exist... The same is with size of the dogs... If the dog is a little bit smaller but perfect at all the slovak judge can still give the good note. So you can see some dogs which are 64 cm but still P3 or P5. But the Czech comittee must follow their rules and give P14 to such dog. What they do in such case? They will ADD an 1 cm and write A65.... or even 66cm because it looks better... (everybody knows such cases). The result? Dog with 64 cm in Slovakia has breeding rights but "only" the note "very good". In Czech Republic the same dog will appear with the 65-66cm and note EXCELLENT.... So which bonitation is more strict? Now the question is what is better? When the bonitation comittee writes all found faults into the bonitation code (like it is in Slovakia) because good dog will still have the right to be stud dog. Or it is better that the bonitation comittee hides more serious faults because if they appear in the bonitation code the dog MUST get P14...?