Differences in bonitations...

[Margo]

Zitat von Pavel

Sure, it will be a thema by next common meeting of CZ and SK club. Here is discussion because some people defend this praxis and trying to evidence, that dogs under standard minimum high are OK and can be using normally in breed (code P1-5).

I think we should speak about something else...

So far we have situation like this:
Slovak bonitation include ALL faults but for Czech people it looks that dogs which shoult be P14 get better notes (P1, P3, P5).
Czech bonitation is hiding many serious faults because of the problem that if it is on the code the dog must be P14.

You know what is the REAL problem? It is the code "Px" Remove it as many people suggest... After such step there will be no fight about the Slovak bonitation and the czech comittee will have no more any reason to hide the faults... And the MAIN GOAL will be fullfiled - in the bonitation you will REALLY have all BIG faults and SMALL FAULTS will be written into the notes... They will write it because NOBODY will have any OFFICIAL reasons to hide them....

[Hanka]

Massimo, my english is not so perfect, so I don´t understand what you mean.....If was bonitation in Pavia "under" czech club? Or?.....

[jasmine]

Zitat von Margo

Let's stop play the game "Quest which dog I mean" It makes more things easier.... and make the air more clear...
Let say it open and ask Michael questions about the bonitation of Gorbi Zlata Palz directly... We were there, we know why the results was as it is... It has no sence to make something top secret because there is really nothing to hide...

ahhh Margo! I don't remember that I would write name of dogs/ breeders. And I haven't thinking about Gorbi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The problem is with his owner and not with the dogs!
And I could write about other dogs...but I won't do it in an open forum.....and I won't do it becase not this is the topic : how could we write a lot of bad things about others.
So please go back to the bonitacion beside takeing personality. Nobody was writing about kennels.breeders, dogs just you.

We want to discuss about bonitacio and not fighting with each other. So please mixing the shit!


Edit

[Margo]

Zitat von Vaiva

And maybe it would be a good idea to announce the notes, written in the bonitation card, but not in the code? Let's say here, on wolfdog.org?

We plan to do it but many notes are gone because nobody published them (Czech club started to publish it first since few years).

There is other problem - you can not compare the notes in the slovak bonitation cards where you have listed really SMALL faults and the czech bonitation cards where you have listed even SERIOUS faults which were not put in the bonitation code because of the danger the dogs can get P14 because of it...

[massimo]

Zitat von Margo

Let's stop play the game "Quest which dog I mean" It makes more things easier.... and make the air more clear...
Let say it open and ask Michael questions about the bonitation of Gorbi Zlata Palz directly... We were there, we know why the results was as it is... It has no sence to make something top secret because there is really nothing to hide...

No need to ask Michael, I was there and can tell anybody, it's no secret.
And please do NOT imagine things as they are not.
Two bonitations were made to quite nervous and untouchable dogs.
Geryon z Peronowki and Gorbi Zlata Palz.
Geryon z Peronowki had Muzzle and needed 2 people (owner and breeder) to hold him and distract him during measurements.
The owner alone (in this case Daiva) was not able to make him be measured.

Gorbi Zlata Palz same thing...the owner wasn't even able to PUT the muzzle on him.
But the breeder (Micheal) took the dog, went away and returned after a few minutes with a brand new dog. No muzzle was anymore necessary.
It was like a statue and Sona could do ANYTHING she wanted.
No violence was done to the dog, it was just shown to the dog that he is NOT the boss and he CANNOT do anything he wants.
In fact Gorbi didn't have his tail under his belly, he wasn't in terror as dogs are when they are hit.
I do the same to Oliver so I know very well. And I would NEVER be violent to one of my dogs, I prefer if you cut my hands off.
If anybody on this site had a puppy (i wonder...) they know very well what it means to show the puppy who is the boss.
Gorbi's behaviour was not his real nature.
I suppose also Geryon's behaviour is NOT his real nature, but both are somehow caused by their owners.
Massimo

[*Satu]

Zitat von wolfin

Judge can not judge dogs which he is owner. For bonitate his own dogs he must leave the comittee and someone else must be in the breeding comittee. But judge can judge dogs which he bred but which belong to other persons...

On, Skandinavian judges can´t do that for own breeded dogs (dogs from their kennel)

FCI judges have 6 month rules... I think?

Rules have same in all FCI countries.

and results looks little bit reliadle if rules can be different.....

[massimo]

Zitat von Hanka

Massimo, my english is not so perfect, so I don´t understand what you mean.....If was bonitation in Pavia "under" czech club? Or?.....

Nono, that I know for sure, it was not an Italian bonitation but czech one.
I am speaking about the "X files" bonitations!!
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/141.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/136.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/122.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/119.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/111.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/102.html
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/bonitations/97.html

Do you know if these bonitations are considered NOT VALID by czech club?
massimo

[Hanka]

Margo, please don´t forget, before 2003 was here "old club goverment" and we have not documents from this time.....Now is new club goverment and all members of club can see all what they want.
And stop with writting about dogs with disqualification defects in czech breeding. It is not right . I am in breedcomission and I don´t remember time, when we put some bad dog (with P14 defects) to breeding......And I don´t remember case, when small dog have more cm in code. I think, nobody does it here....

[Margo]

Zitat von Mirkawolf

Despite the fact, and thanks to all the hydrotherapy we did, Sona could not find problems in her movement when presented in movement - which she said publicly and therefore gave her the code she gave her. If you are envious about a perfect code given to unbreedable dog, then I pity you.

No Mirka - bonitation of Mery is only one part of the bigger problems we have at the moment... And she is the best example... I didn't saw her for a long time... but I read on your pages she has problems to move propertly because her back legs 'tangle' when she move. So I wondered how she can be P1 with such kind of movement problems...
And you must understand my worries about the breed because she is not the only example when dog with problems (not exactly HD but with slack ligaments) get nice note during the bonitation... Just see the famous case in Czech Republic about the bonitation in Prague I mentioned... ASK someone from CZ - they will tell you the story....

Zitat von Mirkawolf

Your hypothesis of "if I had a female" and "then it would be disqualifying fault" have no basis on real actions or facts. You have accused me and my kennel publicly and have absolutely no ground for it, except for your hatred and paranoia that everything is about you.

Mirka, before you write about paranoia please ask finally somebody from the Czech breeding comittee about the problems I mentioned - about dogs which pass bonitations without any problems even if they have DISQUALIFYING FAULTS I listed...

[wolfin]

Zitat von *Satu

On, Skandinavian judges can´t do that for own breeded dogs (dogs from their kennel)

FCI judges have 6 month rules... I think?

Rules have same in all FCI countries.

and results looks little bit reliadle if rules can be different.....

yes, be 6 monts termin.

[Margo]

Zitat von Hanka

Margo, please don´t forget, before 2003 was here "old club goverment" and we have not documents from this time.....Now is new club goverment and all members of club can see all what they want.

I know the problems with the old "GOVERMENT" Nobody can blame your for it and I can really make HUGE list of thinks which the new board of the club makes much better as it was before... Don't worry - I have also many positive thigs which I can write about the Czech style of leading the breed but not we are not wroting about good sides...

Zitat von Hanka

And stop with writting about dogs with disqualification defects in czech breeding. It is not right . I am in breedcomission and I don´t remember time, when we put some bad dog (with P14 defects) to breeding......And I don´t remember case, when small dog have more cm in code. I think, nobody does it here....

You not.... it was made by the board and breeding comitteee which was before you.. But still please look on the way the dogs are judged in Czech Republic and see that the problem with hiding faults exists.... Not because you WANT to hide them but because to follow the Czech rules you MUST hide them...
The open lips are really the best example and someone must do something with it - just look on the males and say it openly: it is almost not possible to find A dog in CZ which has TYPICAL lips... They have all little open or VERY open lips what make their had looking totally different...

[massimo]

now...returning to the initial reason of discussion, there is still an open question nobody has really answered to.
1) in slovak and czech officially recognized bonitations.
Is the lower height limit of 65cm a STRICT limit under which a dog will SURELY get P14?
I know for sure because I asked Sona Bognarova the lower limit of 60cm is NOT strict for females and they can get a P5 code if 1cm less and everything else is ok.
Is this the same for males in SK? in CZ?
As Oskar Dora is one of the most titled specialized living CSW judges, either the reply is YES for Slovakia or the reply is NO for slovakia and it was an ecception for Poland Bonitation. I suppose there was no special Polish bonitation and it is allowed in Slovakia. Anybody can reply from CZ?

my personal opinion (so it means nothing ) is that they should get P14 but P14 should be allowed to breed in special conditions monitored by the club.
Otherwise 73cm dogs risk the chance not to be born from 64,5cm ones...

I will add just another comment for those who have never seen a bonitation: Height on Bonitation is just the height measured by the judge during the bonitation.
It is NOT NECESSARILY correct, 1 or even 2 cm sometimes are "lost" because the dog is not in correct position and bending down.
The opposite can also happen: If you have a 58-59cm female, it is quite easy to make her become 61cm... I've seen it with my own eyes. It is not correct too, but it saves the dog from being disqualified from breeding (and It is a pity)
I agree with Margo, Px factor is sometimes not good.
Just make a list of defects, disqualifying and light, and result should be OK for breeding or NOT ok for breeding.
Massimo

[Margo]

Zitat von massimo

I have no time to make official request but anyway it is not SO important for me.
Somebody asked me a question and for some reason I'm not sure if I can reply.
Are the recent bonitations mad in Italy:
Recognized or not from Czech and Slovak club?
Does anybody in contact with the club know this reply?

The bonitation in Pavia was made as official bonitation of the Czech club accoring to the Czech Club rules... Because of it it is fully recognized...

[wolfin]

Zitat von massimo

No need to ask Michael, I was there and can tell anybody, it's no secret.
And please do NOT imagine things as they are not.
Two bonitations were made to quite nervous and untouchable dogs.
Geryon z Peronowki and Gorbi Zlata Palz.
Geryon z Peronowki had Muzzle and needed 2 people (owner and breeder) to hold him and distract him during measurements.
The owner alone (in this case Daiva) was not able to make him be measured.

Gorbi Zlata Palz same thing...the owner wasn't even able to PUT the muzzle on him.
But the breeder (Micheal) took the dog, went away and returned after a few minutes with a brand new dog. No muzzle was anymore necessary.
It was like a statue and Sona could do ANYTHING she wanted.
No violence was done to the dog, it was just shown to the dog that he is NOT the boss and he CANNOT do anything he wants.

Massimo do not lie. No VIOLENCE!?! Many people was there and see it.
Margo helped me to show Geryon but I not bit him. But Gorbi? Michael must punish he during measurement really and everybody see it in Hronec. He must strangle Gorbi and it not worked. Michael took dog and go away. When he come back Gorbi was so punished, his tongue was BLUE. He was in shock and for me it is no wonder Sona could do ANYTHING with him.
Remember there was many people who see it. Letty from Holland. Satu and many many more - Massimo not tell lies now

[Margo]

Zitat von *Satu

Hanka, take your time and check all bonitation results.

I think WE need INTERNATIONAL CSV CLUB and all breedclubs haves same orgin bonitation and test rules.
if some club/country whant´s strict rules than orgin they can make it.

Also we need more bonitationjudges and that International Club can teach all botitationjudges.

I know very many breeds and they have that kind of INT CLUB.
They have meetings every second year.

As Pavel wrote it will be hard to make such kind of club on the official way. But Slovak Club (together with Czech Club) try to organize word-wide community of judges and breeders (and owners of course) which cooperate together and follow the same rules... It is just starting - the data are being collected and we try to prepare everything.... So give us some time and meetings like Hronec (with exchanging of infromation) can transform to official meetings with a very good formulated goals...

[Margo]

Zitat von Hanka

But: what is a little funny- maybe are some eruptions on the Sun, much people write attacking articles on Poland, Czech, English forums, bad words about other people...... Or is bad position of planets....maybe

No - there are no more spots on the sun in the moment. For sure it is the problem....

[Vaiva]

Zitat von Hanka

To Vaiva:
(In note you can read open lips, but in real it is not Really open lips, but only very little. It is just like: "danger-children of this dogs can have open lips when somebody will combinate two dogs with this small mistake".

Yes, that is why we need to know these notes. If I have to go to a male for thousands kilometres, I would like to know, what he has in "notes" first

Do it Vaiva, make oficial club in your country (for wolfdogs), keep conditions for breeding and "our" breed will be better.

As wolfin allready mentioned, we do have an official breed club in Lithuania and in fact it is so easy to know everything about any dog here, because only 17 wolfdogs live in Lithuania

[Margo]

Zitat von jasmine

Margo, My question was not against you or your dog(s)! I was just wondering..............

Edith - if something has four legs, is barking like a dog and looking like a dog it IS a DOG....

I hope you understand if I will not believe you it is not personal... I really will not believe that person which bred so many dogs and is insider in this breed for a long time never checked the list of OWN dogs and didn't saw that Falco passed bonitation although he is 64 cm... I do not believe you never checked the list of Slovak stud dogs where since YEARS you can see Iran which is 64 cm and already had puppies by such famous Slovak kennels like Radov dvor or spod Ďumbiera....
So I'm really astonished that you "discovered" the problem first right now...

Zitat von jasmine

PS: I looked through the studdog list and I couldn't find dogs under the standard with P1 and/or P3 code. But maybe it is my fault.........

Please read the words of Martine:

Zitat von loco

I have seen more dogs under the breed standard in the database .
And do have bonitation and claimed that they are breedable, and the bonitation was not in Poland .

The list is long but few example just for you:
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/3588
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1360
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/745
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/2851
http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/2822

[Margo]

Zitat von massimo

I will add just another comment for those who have never seen a bonitation: Height on Bonitation is just the height measured by the judge during the bonitation.
It is NOT NECESSARILY correct, 1 or even 2 cm sometimes are "lost" because the dog is not in correct position and bending down.
The opposite can also happen: If you have a 58-59cm female, it is quite easy to make her become 61cm... I've seen it with my own eyes. It is not correct too, but it saves the dog from being disqualified from breeding (and It is a pity)

Sure - but if it is right? Was it really better to make the same in Pozna and ask Oskar "Please write Daimon A65 or A66 because it will look NICER and nobody will make any problems beause of it"? Of course Oskar would not make it for us but as you wrote - in MANY cases it is made like this expacially in Czech Republic in order to "save the dog from being disqualified from breeding".
But when we will hide the size you know what will happen? An owner with the STANDARD male (65 cm on the papers but 64 in reality) will cover a STANDARD female (61 in papers and 58 in reality) and the new puppy owners will be SHOCKED how it is possible their puppy is only 55 cm....

It is REALLY better to write the real data to the bonitation cards because when the data is faulsed (f.e. small dogs has been added some cm of height or very small dogs (much under minimum) are hidden by their owners so nobody can see they are much too small but people breed with them) than you have no improvement by the whole breed and sometimes breeders which really want to do their best and use only good dogs are cheated and unconscious use dogs with SERIOUS DISQUALIFYING FAULTS (because in many cases they have NO idea they use dog or buy a puppy from CzW which do not have for example the typical height).

[massimo]

For stat lovers (it took me long time...i don't have access to Database like Margo! )
Below standard males and females on WD
Males

Name Code Place County Date Judge Don od Parákov A61,5 E1 Oh R1 P5 Senica SK 23/5/98 Dora Flint Ju¾ná èast' A62,5 E1 Og R1 P14 Suchy vrch SK 13/7/96 F. Rosik Leonardo Eden severu A64 C8 S2 Ob P14 Jevisovice CZ 26/4/08 Dora Iran Zemplínska oblast' A64 E1 Oc R1 P5 Senica SK 17/5/03 Bursus Zelený paprsek A64 Od R1 P14 Jevisovice CZ 6/10/07 Dora Celt Fonèorda A64 Of R1 P5 Horný Hrièov SK 28/11/98 Bognarova Fredy Kysucká hviezda A64,5 E1 Of R1 P5 Horný Hrièov SK 12/11/00 Dora
Females

Name Code Place County Date Judge Falin zo Sennej A58 C2 I2 Og R1 P5 Oravská Lesná SK 14/8/99 F. Rosik Céza Kysucká hviezda A58 E1 K1 Od R1 P5 Suchy vrch SK 13/7/96 F. Rosik Gyra z Braunsteinova dvora CS A58 E3 K1 Oh P14 Hostivice CZ 18/10/97 Aska Namor A58 E3 Og R1 P5 ®ilina - Strá¾ova CZ 23/11/96 Dora Grácia Dór A58,5 E1 Og R1 P5 Dolny Kubin SK 15/8/98 F. Rosik Antea z Dubnièanky CS A59 C3 Oc R3 P3 Hostivice SK 29/10/94 Elys spod Ïumbiera A59 Og R1 P3 Senica SK 19/4/08 Dora

CZ dogs below standard, both males and females, were ALWAYS P14 (except for once, but judge was Dora...)
So, I suppose I already have a reply: CZ are strict to the cm, slovaks not.