Can of Worms: Update on Mutara dogs? - Page 2

Gypsy Wolf · 01-06-2010, 02:05

Well here in the United States there are more registries than just the AKC (American Kennel Club) - for instance, there is "APRI" (American Pet Registry Incorporated) they would register mutts - they don't care, as long as there is money involved. But real dog people know that APRI is ridiculous.
APRI would not be a registry recognized or respected by any other kennel club.
Is ENCI a respected kennel club? Are the dogs able to be registered in countries other than Italy? If it all just stays in Italy then it's not a big deal...

GalomyOak · 01-06-2010, 02:43

My understanding...

The FCI is different from the US in the fact that it represents so many countries. Each country is represented by it's own kennel club (in Italy's case, the ENCI - my Bongo is registered through this), with it's own governance, but affiliated with the FCI. Each breed within the FCI has a national "parent" club (our breed's parent club is Slovakia) that steers development of the breed.

Loopholes within each registry can cause problems for breeds, especially when it comes to reciprocity. AKC also has the loophole where, as a parent breed club, we could allow dogs with no registration papers into the studbook - after 3 generations, these mutts could have full registration (which could/would (?) have to be recognized by the FCI - I think - this is where I get confused). It has a place in some breeds - for instance, breeds originating in parts of remote Africa, where breeds really are bred for work and type - but might not have registration papers. Or in the case of rare breeds such as the Chinook which needed to expand it's genepool - but it was a monitored, well-planned club effort. This new blood can then be added into existing/smaller populations. But clearly, our breed has a closed genepool for the time being - any ethical national parent club should adhere to this unless the Slovakian breed club decides otherwise.

Gypsy Wolf · 01-06-2010, 19:58

Well if FCI adheres to parent country clubs, and mutaras are not allowed according to CZ and SK, than FCI should reject the ENCI pedigrees, right?
I know there is a huge issue occurring in American Dalmatians - they started a "back-cross" project 35 years ago, bringing in an English Pointer to correct the genes that make 100% of "purebred" Dals have high uric acid. Now, so many generations later, the backcross offspring are 99.99% Dalmatian, but the Dal "ourists" would rather have the high uric acid defect, rather than allowing the backcross Dals full registration as they are "mutts" according to purists.
In the Dal situation, they at least used an English Pointer that was well-bred, papered and closest to the Dal phenotype so as not to bring in any "unknowns"... where as the Mutara dogs brought in a GSD mix with no known parentage as well as a Canadian wolf which is not even close to the carpathian wolf subspecies...
So here in the U.S. I would propose that we make sure AKC does not register mutaras, per our parent club's rules, adhering to what the parent countries suggest.
My fear are those loopholes that potentially can muddy the waters...

Hanka · 01-06-2010, 20:03

Hi Lunas mom. After czech club conferention (14 days later) I will write more info about breeding of Mutaras and all their offsprings here in Czech republic. I hope, they will not in Czech for ever. I hope candidats on conferention will vote good thing. Cross fingers

.

AMERICANI · 10-06-2010, 17:22

The key word in....."Responsible Breeder" is..... "responsible". Europe has always done things differently than we have... ENCI is Italy's AKC. 4 of 5 of my dogs are ENCI registered. All 5 are FCI listed. You have to do your homework with this or any other "breed" to keep what you believe to be good and true as such. Being that Italy has the most breeders of the Vlcak (not exactly a good thing---more like arrogance if you ask me) I don't think knocking them is the answer, but developing ours (as Americans) to our specs and reqs. Every day I see a "border patrol issue" which makes me all the more stoked, because that is what these guys are for! They are not exactly the Disney promoted "family pet" which we have engraved into our imaginations, but they ARE loyal, loving, and DETERMINED to do things (trained or not). I strongly feel the need to jackhammer this into the heads of all the @#$^&s who keep e-mailing me. My first dog was a Beagle (we bred Beagles)... Aggression was an issue with ours. My second, a half Doberman-half Lab. (the best dog ever). I love my pack (and will do anything for their well-being), but I WILL NOT recommend them to just anyone.

massimo · 11-06-2010, 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMERICANI

Being that Italy has the most breeders of the Vlcak (not exactly a good thing---more like arrogance if you ask me) I don't think knocking them is the answer, but developing ours (as Americans) to our specs and reqs.

Have you ever spoken to any Italian Breeder??
Do you know , honestly, what the hell you are talking about??
Italy has the most breeders, they are in fact MANY.
Does this mean they are ALL bad??
good lord...I feel like in a nursery sometimes.

Pavel · 13-06-2010, 15:13

Short bad information for "Mutara lovers" :
Yesterday CZ conference of Club decided to put a new important regulation. All dogs, they want to have CZ CsW pedigree must have minimally since year 1999 all ancestors clear CsW with FCI recognised pedigree (not register, but normally pedigree). Its mean, that is somebody will try to import an CsW with e.g. italian pedigree, in which will be 3 generation CsW, bud by check 6 generation in database will be found, that in 2008 is there some dog with italian register, dont get in CZ the registration as CsW. Such dog have chance get in CZ register pedigree like a hybrid only, but about it must decided CZ Club (register pedigree is not obligatory). Same searching in database will be done by every using the stud or bitch in breed from abroad.

hanninadina · 13-06-2010, 15:26

Pavel, Hanka, your problem is that you are fighting a private war and you are looking to much through the breeders glaces. Don´t you think that their are a lot of people who don´t care what your breeding comittee does? Come down to earth. You have no chance there are more other wolfdogs than Mutaras way inside the csw breed. If you do not be open, you will never get information. I forget the name, but she wrote it here, it is best, when you know everything about these "other" wolfdogs who are brought into the breed, than to hide it or they will be forbidden. These wolfdogs have so many fans that they do not care what you are doing. Work together and than everyone cna decide by himself what he likes more.

The world is turning around and around and no one can stop it! And of course not the czech breeding comittee.

Christian

PS: I am absolute against mixing csw with other wolfdogs! But live and let live.

Pavel · 13-06-2010, 15:35

Christian, first must say, that its not a private war. We are genetical source of breed. Like a country of origin we must care about genetical variability and purity of breed. Through fact, that e.g. Italy is in number of puppies born yearly on top and higher, than CZ, interest about buing puppy from CZ from abroad is not lower.
In other countries you can doing, whats you want, but we in CZ guarantee from now more or less, that you buy here with CsW pedigree really CsW only.

koboldine · 13-06-2010, 16:04

@ Christian:
to some extend you are right. But only to some.
The CsW is a recognised breed, bred on purpose according to a standard which had to be approved as well as the dogs themselves.
This standard and the actions of the breeding comitee were supposed to insure that this breed was started (an later continued) within 4 registred wolf crossings. Even those animals were considered and brought in intentionally according to the needs AND in agreement with the majority of representatives for this breed.

ANY other way to cross breed with any wolf cannot be acceptable as it would open the breed to a mixture due to the thoughts of this or that breeder, only. But then the csw cannot be called FCI recognised breed anylonger.

IF one wants a dog according to a certain breed standard they should be able to recognise this particular breed by the accompanying documents.
IF one does not care which breed their (future) dog belongs to they also should be made aware that they just have decided to buy a mix - which certainly restricts some perspectives like becoming a breeder themselves of the breed they actually wanted but decided otherwise. But they will most certainly get a dog they will hopefully love...

There is nothing wrong with people who want ANY wolf look-alike, and this is what Mutara seems to be, another wolf-look-alike mixture bred in a csw kennel - nothing less.

IF some people like these dogs - allright. But there is no need that the officials recognise them as csw - which now has been made clear by the comitee. Nothing is worse than not knowing what you deal with, now everyone knows and may act accordingly.

You say live and let live: allright.
But to keep the acknowledgement as a breed the CsW needs to be distanced from any other wolf look-alike...

I am glad that the comitee now has decided, even if this decission might come hard on some of the owners.

regards
koboldine

PS: Nevertheless, you and the other who said you need to know what they are doing and not hide them... are right. Therefore I think the comitee has planned to mark them in data bases - if I understood correctly

Hanka · 13-06-2010, 20:17

Hi Christian. I think you have some bad information. I have private war with nobody. I fight with nobody. If somebody tell you something other.............
I only don´t want Mutara hybrids and something similar in czech breeding. But I am not alone. Yesterday we had czech club conferention and there was full room of people which think the same. I think, you don´t know situation in czech club. Here nobody wants to have some "dirty breeding". All czech dogs must have 100% clear pedigree. It is right, isn´t it?
You could visit our conferention and you could to see real situation here.

Gypsy Wolf · 13-06-2010, 20:20

One important question: How are we going to make sure Italian mutaras stay out of the gene pool if a clever breeder falsifies pedigrees? Are they going to be genetically recorded so we know the pedigrees are accurate to the CsV? Here in the U.S. AKC and UKC do DNA Printing to confirm parentage. Will CZ/SK and FCI do this to keep mutaras out of the gene pool?

AMERICANI · 13-06-2010, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Have you ever spoken to any Italian Breeder??
Do you know , honestly, what the hell you are talking about??
Italy has the most breeders, they are in fact MANY.
Does this mean they are ALL bad??
good lord...I feel like in a nursery sometimes.

I have only on occasion spoken to breeders who weren't Italian. 90% of the breeders I know are Italian. I was just highlighting the fact that more does not mean better! And I think you are a bit confused also as to the fact that I was saying not all Italian breeders are bad!

Mikael · 13-06-2010, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Here in the U.S. AKC and UKC do DNA Printing to confirm parentage.

This is done in Sweden to...

What is needed is that FCI ban this dogs and not just SL and CZ.

Very best regards / Mikael

hanninadina · 14-06-2010, 17:58

I understand the problem and what you want. But the thing is, that the italians breed as much csw than any other country. If I am informed right about 500 csw puppies a year. In czech republic about 100, Slovakia much less, germany less, Poland maybe more.... But the fact is that the ENCI is under the control of FCI and if czech republic and slovakia do not get the FCI in the same boat, you can do nothing.

And sorry to say, I doubt that you will make it possible because the italians are a strong club in the FCI.

Luna´s mom, the italian do for their champion dogs DNA-Test.

In not so long time there will be much more csw from italy than of the countries of origin. That is one point. But what did me shocked was that in the last worlddogshow in Bratislava one csw won his class which was not pure breed csw! And it was not a Mutara and not csw saarloos mix! That it is what I mean, if you try to forbid everything you will never know what happen behind the scene. People around Mutara were open and did not hide. That is why we all know where the F generations are. Now the people who are starting with mixed csw wolfdogs (like in worlddogshow) hide and you will never know where there are pure bred csw or not. That is from my point of view the result because putting the Mutara and their offspring with a bann.

I wrote already I am like you total against mixing. I had no problem if a csw breeder will introduce new carpathian wolf with csw into the breed. But other things are not good. I do not have a solution, it is difficult.

People who are new to the breed will not know what is Mutara. Old people know and most of the people do not care.

Christian

Mikael · 14-06-2010, 18:28

I understand the reason for mixing breeds, what I do not understand is way they wont them to have a pure CsW pedigree if they are a F1, F2 or F3 mix

It´s just as stupid as register CsW as GSD

BTW, in what country in EU can you own a F1, F2 or F3 wolfdog ???

In Sweden we have the F5 law, and therefor the "Mutara" lined are banned by law, even if they have a FCI pedigree.

Best regards / Mikael

Gypsy Wolf · 14-06-2010, 18:43

But what about a falsified pedigree? That would go through in Sweden, correct?
Also, what about when these mutara lines ARE F5, down the line? I don't want even the slightest bit of mutara blood...

hanninadina · 14-06-2010, 18:45

What are you talking about? What do you think was Rep? A hybrid from your point of view? He was F 2!

In Great Britain and the netherlands from F 3 the wolfdogs are dogs.

In germany there are new enforcement information vom 13.03.2009 where it is said that "Hybrides" who are mixed under each other are not under the species conservation law, only pure wild animals mixed with domestic animal. This means only F 1! This enforcement information are from the envorinment ministrys in germany. The have a working group who made this enforcement information.

And in EG-VO 318/2008 from europaen union it is written that "Hybrids" must have a stable population in nature if their offspring shall be under the protection of this EU-"law". But as everybody knows in germany we do not have "stable" populations of wolfdog hybrids, we even do not have hybrids in nature. And only for that the law was made. Concrete other laws do not exists for hybrids in germany. In italy and france "hybrids" are forbidden but I think it is the same way like in germany. If someone would go to judge people would see that this "Law" is not made for forbidden "hybrids" in private ownership, but only for protection the nature. And this are two different things.

Christian

hanninadina · 14-06-2010, 18:54

When you are talking about false papers who will know when the papers are wrong? That is what I mean, if you be open, you will know it. If you will not be, you never know. That is a wolfdog breed. Best example is F1 Mutara, white wolving with gsd without papers, and one pup was grey wolfdog! Because every wolf subspecies are from grey wolf canis lupus lupus even the arctic ones and of course canis lupus occidentalis too, like Lupina was.

From the F 2 generation Mutara was always bred with a csw dog! There are F2 and F 3 Mutaras where you do not see the differnce between pure csw and mutt. Even the best special judges on the breed even did not see the wolfdog-mix in the worlddogshow last year...., not mut children as I wrote, different wolfdogs. That is the point.

Christian

Gypsy Wolf · 14-06-2010, 19:07

Yes, different wolfdogs, and I love wolfdogs, but if the point is maintaining the purity of the bloodlines and the goal/foundation of the breed - Carpathian wolves and GSDs with papers that can be traced all the way back to Horand. That was done so that the founders of the breed had a good idea of the phenotype and genotype they had to work with, at least in regards to the GSD genetics.
Bringing in a North American wolf is NOT what was intended - otherwise t would've been done from the beginning. And to add in an unpapered GSD is also an abomination to me - you have NO IDEA of what is behind him - good, bad, ugly or great.
Breeding is already like gambling... selective breeding will sometimes load the dice in your favor - that's where research comes in - but to bring in 2 total wildcards throws a monkey wrench into the system and perhaps many unwanted (all of it certainly unknown) genes.
I would have had no issue at all if a Carpathian wolf and a Pohranicni Straze line GSD had been brought in to widen the gene pool - heck, I probably would look into importing one of the offspring myself for hybrid vigor! At least they are what the initial foundation stock was and at least the GSD would be a "known risk" with all the detailed information collected on GSDs.
But I look at the mutara project and heck, it's no different to me than if they had brought in a mutt from the pound and a jackal. NOT a CSV. Not even close enough to be moderately acceptable to me.
And with Italy being the largest breeding population of CSVs, and without their commitment to keep mutaras out of the breed, I don't see how we will be able to keep them out of the bloodlines... eventually somewhere down the line there will be mutara blood in the rest of the breed...

01-06-2010, 02:43	#22
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	My understanding... The FCI is different from the US in the fact that it represents so many countries. Each country is represented by it's own kennel club (in Italy's case, the ENCI - my Bongo is registered through this), with it's own governance, but affiliated with the FCI. Each breed within the FCI has a national "parent" club (our breed's parent club is Slovakia) that steers development of the breed. Loopholes within each registry can cause problems for breeds, especially when it comes to reciprocity. AKC also has the loophole where, as a parent breed club, we could allow dogs with no registration papers into the studbook - after 3 generations, these mutts could have full registration (which could/would (?) have to be recognized by the FCI - I think - this is where I get confused). It has a place in some breeds - for instance, breeds originating in parts of remote Africa, where breeds really are bred for work and type - but might not have registration papers. Or in the case of rare breeds such as the Chinook which needed to expand it's genepool - but it was a monitored, well-planned club effort. This new blood can then be added into existing/smaller populations. But clearly, our breed has a closed genepool for the time being - any ethical national parent club should adhere to this unless the Slovakian breed club decides otherwise. __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

10-06-2010, 17:22	#25
AMERICANI Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 111	Responsibility The key word in....."Responsible Breeder" is..... "responsible". Europe has always done things differently than we have... ENCI is Italy's AKC. 4 of 5 of my dogs are ENCI registered. All 5 are FCI listed. You have to do your homework with this or any other "breed" to keep what you believe to be good and true as such. Being that Italy has the most breeders of the Vlcak (not exactly a good thing---more like arrogance if you ask me) I don't think knocking them is the answer, but developing ours (as Americans) to our specs and reqs. Every day I see a "border patrol issue" which makes me all the more stoked, because that is what these guys are for! They are not exactly the Disney promoted "family pet" which we have engraved into our imaginations, but they ARE loyal, loving, and DETERMINED to do things (trained or not). I strongly feel the need to jackhammer this into the heads of all the @#$^&s who keep e-mailing me. My first dog was a Beagle (we bred Beagles)... Aggression was an issue with ours. My second, a half Doberman-half Lab. (the best dog ever). I love my pack (and will do anything for their well-being), but I WILL NOT recommend them to just anyone.

13-06-2010, 16:04	#30
koboldine Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 472	@ Christian: to some extend you are right. But only to some. The CsW is a recognised breed, bred on purpose according to a standard which had to be approved as well as the dogs themselves. This standard and the actions of the breeding comitee were supposed to insure that this breed was started (an later continued) within 4 registred wolf crossings. Even those animals were considered and brought in intentionally according to the needs AND in agreement with the majority of representatives for this breed. ANY other way to cross breed with any wolf cannot be acceptable as it would open the breed to a mixture due to the thoughts of this or that breeder, only. But then the csw cannot be called FCI recognised breed anylonger. IF one wants a dog according to a certain breed standard they should be able to recognise this particular breed by the accompanying documents. IF one does not care which breed their (future) dog belongs to they also should be made aware that they just have decided to buy a mix - which certainly restricts some perspectives like becoming a breeder themselves of the breed they actually wanted but decided otherwise. But they will most certainly get a dog they will hopefully love... There is nothing wrong with people who want ANY wolf look-alike, and this is what Mutara seems to be, another wolf-look-alike mixture bred in a csw kennel - nothing less. IF some people like these dogs - allright. But there is no need that the officials recognise them as csw - which now has been made clear by the comitee. Nothing is worse than not knowing what you deal with, now everyone knows and may act accordingly. You say live and let live: allright. But to keep the acknowledgement as a breed the CsW needs to be distanced from any other wolf look-alike... I am glad that the comitee now has decided, even if this decission might come hard on some of the owners. regards koboldine PS: Nevertheless, you and the other who said you need to know what they are doing and not hide them... are right. Therefore I think the comitee has planned to mark them in data bases - if I understood correctly __________________ Kein Mensch darf mir meine Schwächen so deutlich zeigen, wie meine (Wolfs-)Hunde es tun.

14-06-2010, 18:28	#36
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	I understand the reason for mixing breeds, what I do not understand is way they wont them to have a pure CsW pedigree if they are a F1, F2 or F3 mix It´s just as stupid as register CsW as GSD BTW, in what country in EU can you own a F1, F2 or F3 wolfdog ??? In Sweden we have the F5 law, and therefor the "Mutara" lined are banned by law, even if they have a FCI pedigree. Best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

01-06-2010, 02:05	#21
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Well here in the United States there are more registries than just the AKC (American Kennel Club) - for instance, there is "APRI" (American Pet Registry Incorporated) they would register mutts - they don't care, as long as there is money involved. But real dog people know that APRI is ridiculous. APRI would not be a registry recognized or respected by any other kennel club. Is ENCI a respected kennel club? Are the dogs able to be registered in countries other than Italy? If it all just stays in Italy then it's not a big deal...

01-06-2010, 19:58	#23
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Well if FCI adheres to parent country clubs, and mutaras are not allowed according to CZ and SK, than FCI should reject the ENCI pedigrees, right? I know there is a huge issue occurring in American Dalmatians - they started a "back-cross" project 35 years ago, bringing in an English Pointer to correct the genes that make 100% of "purebred" Dals have high uric acid. Now, so many generations later, the backcross offspring are 99.99% Dalmatian, but the Dal "ourists" would rather have the high uric acid defect, rather than allowing the backcross Dals full registration as they are "mutts" according to purists. In the Dal situation, they at least used an English Pointer that was well-bred, papered and closest to the Dal phenotype so as not to bring in any "unknowns"... where as the Mutara dogs brought in a GSD mix with no known parentage as well as a Canadian wolf which is not even close to the carpathian wolf subspecies... So here in the U.S. I would propose that we make sure AKC does not register mutaras, per our parent club's rules, adhering to what the parent countries suggest. My fear are those loopholes that potentially can muddy the waters...

01-06-2010, 20:03	#24
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hi Lunas mom. After czech club conferention (14 days later) I will write more info about breeding of Mutaras and all their offsprings here in Czech republic. I hope, they will not in Czech for ever. I hope candidats on conferention will vote good thing. Cross fingers .

13-06-2010, 15:13	#27
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	Short bad information for "Mutara lovers" : Yesterday CZ conference of Club decided to put a new important regulation. All dogs, they want to have CZ CsW pedigree must have minimally since year 1999 all ancestors clear CsW with FCI recognised pedigree (not register, but normally pedigree). Its mean, that is somebody will try to import an CsW with e.g. italian pedigree, in which will be 3 generation CsW, bud by check 6 generation in database will be found, that in 2008 is there some dog with italian register, dont get in CZ the registration as CsW. Such dog have chance get in CZ register pedigree like a hybrid only, but about it must decided CZ Club (register pedigree is not obligatory). Same searching in database will be done by every using the stud or bitch in breed from abroad.

13-06-2010, 15:26	#28
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Pavel, Hanka, your problem is that you are fighting a private war and you are looking to much through the breeders glaces. Don´t you think that their are a lot of people who don´t care what your breeding comittee does? Come down to earth. You have no chance there are more other wolfdogs than Mutaras way inside the csw breed. If you do not be open, you will never get information. I forget the name, but she wrote it here, it is best, when you know everything about these "other" wolfdogs who are brought into the breed, than to hide it or they will be forbidden. These wolfdogs have so many fans that they do not care what you are doing. Work together and than everyone cna decide by himself what he likes more. The world is turning around and around and no one can stop it! And of course not the czech breeding comittee. Christian PS: I am absolute against mixing csw with other wolfdogs! But live and let live.

13-06-2010, 15:35	#29
Pavel Moderator Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,190	Christian, first must say, that its not a private war. We are genetical source of breed. Like a country of origin we must care about genetical variability and purity of breed. Through fact, that e.g. Italy is in number of puppies born yearly on top and higher, than CZ, interest about buing puppy from CZ from abroad is not lower. In other countries you can doing, whats you want, but we in CZ guarantee from now more or less, that you buy here with CsW pedigree really CsW only.

13-06-2010, 20:17	#31
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hi Christian. I think you have some bad information. I have private war with nobody. I fight with nobody. If somebody tell you something other............. I only don´t want Mutara hybrids and something similar in czech breeding. But I am not alone. Yesterday we had czech club conferention and there was full room of people which think the same. I think, you don´t know situation in czech club. Here nobody wants to have some "dirty breeding". All czech dogs must have 100% clear pedigree. It is right, isn´t it? You could visit our conferention and you could to see real situation here.

13-06-2010, 20:20	#32
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	One important question: How are we going to make sure Italian mutaras stay out of the gene pool if a clever breeder falsifies pedigrees? Are they going to be genetically recorded so we know the pedigrees are accurate to the CsV? Here in the U.S. AKC and UKC do DNA Printing to confirm parentage. Will CZ/SK and FCI do this to keep mutaras out of the gene pool?

14-06-2010, 17:58	#35
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	I understand the problem and what you want. But the thing is, that the italians breed as much csw than any other country. If I am informed right about 500 csw puppies a year. In czech republic about 100, Slovakia much less, germany less, Poland maybe more.... But the fact is that the ENCI is under the control of FCI and if czech republic and slovakia do not get the FCI in the same boat, you can do nothing. And sorry to say, I doubt that you will make it possible because the italians are a strong club in the FCI. Luna´s mom, the italian do for their champion dogs DNA-Test. In not so long time there will be much more csw from italy than of the countries of origin. That is one point. But what did me shocked was that in the last worlddogshow in Bratislava one csw won his class which was not pure breed csw! And it was not a Mutara and not csw saarloos mix! That it is what I mean, if you try to forbid everything you will never know what happen behind the scene. People around Mutara were open and did not hide. That is why we all know where the F generations are. Now the people who are starting with mixed csw wolfdogs (like in worlddogshow) hide and you will never know where there are pure bred csw or not. That is from my point of view the result because putting the Mutara and their offspring with a bann. I wrote already I am like you total against mixing. I had no problem if a csw breeder will introduce new carpathian wolf with csw into the breed. But other things are not good. I do not have a solution, it is difficult. People who are new to the breed will not know what is Mutara. Old people know and most of the people do not care. Christian

14-06-2010, 18:43	#37
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	But what about a falsified pedigree? That would go through in Sweden, correct? Also, what about when these mutara lines ARE F5, down the line? I don't want even the slightest bit of mutara blood...

14-06-2010, 18:45	#38
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	What are you talking about? What do you think was Rep? A hybrid from your point of view? He was F 2! In Great Britain and the netherlands from F 3 the wolfdogs are dogs. In germany there are new enforcement information vom 13.03.2009 where it is said that "Hybrides" who are mixed under each other are not under the species conservation law, only pure wild animals mixed with domestic animal. This means only F 1! This enforcement information are from the envorinment ministrys in germany. The have a working group who made this enforcement information. And in EG-VO 318/2008 from europaen union it is written that "Hybrids" must have a stable population in nature if their offspring shall be under the protection of this EU-"law". But as everybody knows in germany we do not have "stable" populations of wolfdog hybrids, we even do not have hybrids in nature. And only for that the law was made. Concrete other laws do not exists for hybrids in germany. In italy and france "hybrids" are forbidden but I think it is the same way like in germany. If someone would go to judge people would see that this "Law" is not made for forbidden "hybrids" in private ownership, but only for protection the nature. And this are two different things. Christian

14-06-2010, 18:54	#39
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	When you are talking about false papers who will know when the papers are wrong? That is what I mean, if you be open, you will know it. If you will not be, you never know. That is a wolfdog breed. Best example is F1 Mutara, white wolving with gsd without papers, and one pup was grey wolfdog! Because every wolf subspecies are from grey wolf canis lupus lupus even the arctic ones and of course canis lupus occidentalis too, like Lupina was. From the F 2 generation Mutara was always bred with a csw dog! There are F2 and F 3 Mutaras where you do not see the differnce between pure csw and mutt. Even the best special judges on the breed even did not see the wolfdog-mix in the worlddogshow last year...., not mut children as I wrote, different wolfdogs. That is the point. Christian

14-06-2010, 19:07	#40
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Yes, different wolfdogs, and I love wolfdogs, but if the point is maintaining the purity of the bloodlines and the goal/foundation of the breed - Carpathian wolves and GSDs with papers that can be traced all the way back to Horand. That was done so that the founders of the breed had a good idea of the phenotype and genotype they had to work with, at least in regards to the GSD genetics. Bringing in a North American wolf is NOT what was intended - otherwise t would've been done from the beginning. And to add in an unpapered GSD is also an abomination to me - you have NO IDEA of what is behind him - good, bad, ugly or great. Breeding is already like gambling... selective breeding will sometimes load the dice in your favor - that's where research comes in - but to bring in 2 total wildcards throws a monkey wrench into the system and perhaps many unwanted (all of it certainly unknown) genes. I would have had no issue at all if a Carpathian wolf and a Pohranicni Straze line GSD had been brought in to widen the gene pool - heck, I probably would look into importing one of the offspring myself for hybrid vigor! At least they are what the initial foundation stock was and at least the GSD would be a "known risk" with all the detailed information collected on GSDs. But I look at the mutara project and heck, it's no different to me than if they had brought in a mutt from the pound and a jackal. NOT a CSV. Not even close enough to be moderately acceptable to me. And with Italy being the largest breeding population of CSVs, and without their commitment to keep mutaras out of the breed, I don't see how we will be able to keep them out of the bloodlines... eventually somewhere down the line there will be mutara blood in the rest of the breed...