Can of Worms: Update on Mutara dogs?

Gypsy Wolf · 13-06-2010, 20:20

One important question: How are we going to make sure Italian mutaras stay out of the gene pool if a clever breeder falsifies pedigrees? Are they going to be genetically recorded so we know the pedigrees are accurate to the CsV? Here in the U.S. AKC and UKC do DNA Printing to confirm parentage. Will CZ/SK and FCI do this to keep mutaras out of the gene pool?

Mikael · 13-06-2010, 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Here in the U.S. AKC and UKC do DNA Printing to confirm parentage.

This is done in Sweden to...

What is needed is that FCI ban this dogs and not just SL and CZ.

Very best regards / Mikael

hanninadina · 14-06-2010, 17:58

I understand the problem and what you want. But the thing is, that the italians breed as much csw than any other country. If I am informed right about 500 csw puppies a year. In czech republic about 100, Slovakia much less, germany less, Poland maybe more.... But the fact is that the ENCI is under the control of FCI and if czech republic and slovakia do not get the FCI in the same boat, you can do nothing.

And sorry to say, I doubt that you will make it possible because the italians are a strong club in the FCI.

Luna´s mom, the italian do for their champion dogs DNA-Test.

In not so long time there will be much more csw from italy than of the countries of origin. That is one point. But what did me shocked was that in the last worlddogshow in Bratislava one csw won his class which was not pure breed csw! And it was not a Mutara and not csw saarloos mix! That it is what I mean, if you try to forbid everything you will never know what happen behind the scene. People around Mutara were open and did not hide. That is why we all know where the F generations are. Now the people who are starting with mixed csw wolfdogs (like in worlddogshow) hide and you will never know where there are pure bred csw or not. That is from my point of view the result because putting the Mutara and their offspring with a bann.

I wrote already I am like you total against mixing. I had no problem if a csw breeder will introduce new carpathian wolf with csw into the breed. But other things are not good. I do not have a solution, it is difficult.

People who are new to the breed will not know what is Mutara. Old people know and most of the people do not care.

Christian

Mikael · 14-06-2010, 18:28

I understand the reason for mixing breeds, what I do not understand is way they wont them to have a pure CsW pedigree if they are a F1, F2 or F3 mix

It´s just as stupid as register CsW as GSD

BTW, in what country in EU can you own a F1, F2 or F3 wolfdog ???

In Sweden we have the F5 law, and therefor the "Mutara" lined are banned by law, even if they have a FCI pedigree.

Best regards / Mikael

Gypsy Wolf · 14-06-2010, 18:43

But what about a falsified pedigree? That would go through in Sweden, correct?
Also, what about when these mutara lines ARE F5, down the line? I don't want even the slightest bit of mutara blood...

Mikael · 14-06-2010, 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

But what about a falsified pedigree? That would go through in Sweden, correct?
Also, what about when these mutara lines ARE F5, down the line? I don't want even the slightest bit of mutara blood...

If it is reported to the Swedish kennel club, they will probably lose there pedigree.
( if there is any proof )

If there is no proof maybe they just ban every CsW and Saarloos in Sweden from breeding whit pure Pedigree’s as they did between 1997-2008 ! Even if Swedish government did say CsW and Saarloos was OK 1997 the Swedish Kennel Club refused to let any wolfdog on any show or let them breed whit pedigree, until 2008.

If they are F1-F4 the dog will probably bee put to sleep to

Therefor please do not import a dog of the "Mutara" lines to Sweden !!!
As it might get the breed banned

And the dog killed

!!!

In Sweden we do not have any room for any error, one bad thing and we might be banned.

Best regards / Mikael

AMERICANI · 14-06-2010, 23:20

..........

hanninadina · 14-06-2010, 18:45

What are you talking about? What do you think was Rep? A hybrid from your point of view? He was F 2!

In Great Britain and the netherlands from F 3 the wolfdogs are dogs.

In germany there are new enforcement information vom 13.03.2009 where it is said that "Hybrides" who are mixed under each other are not under the species conservation law, only pure wild animals mixed with domestic animal. This means only F 1! This enforcement information are from the envorinment ministrys in germany. The have a working group who made this enforcement information.

And in EG-VO 318/2008 from europaen union it is written that "Hybrids" must have a stable population in nature if their offspring shall be under the protection of this EU-"law". But as everybody knows in germany we do not have "stable" populations of wolfdog hybrids, we even do not have hybrids in nature. And only for that the law was made. Concrete other laws do not exists for hybrids in germany. In italy and france "hybrids" are forbidden but I think it is the same way like in germany. If someone would go to judge people would see that this "Law" is not made for forbidden "hybrids" in private ownership, but only for protection the nature. And this are two different things.

Christian

hanninadina · 14-06-2010, 18:54

When you are talking about false papers who will know when the papers are wrong? That is what I mean, if you be open, you will know it. If you will not be, you never know. That is a wolfdog breed. Best example is F1 Mutara, white wolving with gsd without papers, and one pup was grey wolfdog! Because every wolf subspecies are from grey wolf canis lupus lupus even the arctic ones and of course canis lupus occidentalis too, like Lupina was.

From the F 2 generation Mutara was always bred with a csw dog! There are F2 and F 3 Mutaras where you do not see the differnce between pure csw and mutt. Even the best special judges on the breed even did not see the wolfdog-mix in the worlddogshow last year...., not mut children as I wrote, different wolfdogs. That is the point.

Christian

Gypsy Wolf · 14-06-2010, 19:07

Yes, different wolfdogs, and I love wolfdogs, but if the point is maintaining the purity of the bloodlines and the goal/foundation of the breed - Carpathian wolves and GSDs with papers that can be traced all the way back to Horand. That was done so that the founders of the breed had a good idea of the phenotype and genotype they had to work with, at least in regards to the GSD genetics.
Bringing in a North American wolf is NOT what was intended - otherwise t would've been done from the beginning. And to add in an unpapered GSD is also an abomination to me - you have NO IDEA of what is behind him - good, bad, ugly or great.
Breeding is already like gambling... selective breeding will sometimes load the dice in your favor - that's where research comes in - but to bring in 2 total wildcards throws a monkey wrench into the system and perhaps many unwanted (all of it certainly unknown) genes.
I would have had no issue at all if a Carpathian wolf and a Pohranicni Straze line GSD had been brought in to widen the gene pool - heck, I probably would look into importing one of the offspring myself for hybrid vigor! At least they are what the initial foundation stock was and at least the GSD would be a "known risk" with all the detailed information collected on GSDs.
But I look at the mutara project and heck, it's no different to me than if they had brought in a mutt from the pound and a jackal. NOT a CSV. Not even close enough to be moderately acceptable to me.
And with Italy being the largest breeding population of CSVs, and without their commitment to keep mutaras out of the breed, I don't see how we will be able to keep them out of the bloodlines... eventually somewhere down the line there will be mutara blood in the rest of the breed...

14-06-2010, 18:28	#4
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	I understand the reason for mixing breeds, what I do not understand is way they wont them to have a pure CsW pedigree if they are a F1, F2 or F3 mix It´s just as stupid as register CsW as GSD BTW, in what country in EU can you own a F1, F2 or F3 wolfdog ??? In Sweden we have the F5 law, and therefor the "Mutara" lined are banned by law, even if they have a FCI pedigree. Best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916

14-06-2010, 23:20	#7
AMERICANI Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 111	Where's Massimo? .......... Last edited by AMERICANI; 15-06-2010 at 21:38.

13-06-2010, 20:20	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	One important question: How are we going to make sure Italian mutaras stay out of the gene pool if a clever breeder falsifies pedigrees? Are they going to be genetically recorded so we know the pedigrees are accurate to the CsV? Here in the U.S. AKC and UKC do DNA Printing to confirm parentage. Will CZ/SK and FCI do this to keep mutaras out of the gene pool?

14-06-2010, 17:58	#3
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	I understand the problem and what you want. But the thing is, that the italians breed as much csw than any other country. If I am informed right about 500 csw puppies a year. In czech republic about 100, Slovakia much less, germany less, Poland maybe more.... But the fact is that the ENCI is under the control of FCI and if czech republic and slovakia do not get the FCI in the same boat, you can do nothing. And sorry to say, I doubt that you will make it possible because the italians are a strong club in the FCI. Luna´s mom, the italian do for their champion dogs DNA-Test. In not so long time there will be much more csw from italy than of the countries of origin. That is one point. But what did me shocked was that in the last worlddogshow in Bratislava one csw won his class which was not pure breed csw! And it was not a Mutara and not csw saarloos mix! That it is what I mean, if you try to forbid everything you will never know what happen behind the scene. People around Mutara were open and did not hide. That is why we all know where the F generations are. Now the people who are starting with mixed csw wolfdogs (like in worlddogshow) hide and you will never know where there are pure bred csw or not. That is from my point of view the result because putting the Mutara and their offspring with a bann. I wrote already I am like you total against mixing. I had no problem if a csw breeder will introduce new carpathian wolf with csw into the breed. But other things are not good. I do not have a solution, it is difficult. People who are new to the breed will not know what is Mutara. Old people know and most of the people do not care. Christian

14-06-2010, 18:43	#5
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	But what about a falsified pedigree? That would go through in Sweden, correct? Also, what about when these mutara lines ARE F5, down the line? I don't want even the slightest bit of mutara blood...

14-06-2010, 18:45	#8
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	What are you talking about? What do you think was Rep? A hybrid from your point of view? He was F 2! In Great Britain and the netherlands from F 3 the wolfdogs are dogs. In germany there are new enforcement information vom 13.03.2009 where it is said that "Hybrides" who are mixed under each other are not under the species conservation law, only pure wild animals mixed with domestic animal. This means only F 1! This enforcement information are from the envorinment ministrys in germany. The have a working group who made this enforcement information. And in EG-VO 318/2008 from europaen union it is written that "Hybrids" must have a stable population in nature if their offspring shall be under the protection of this EU-"law". But as everybody knows in germany we do not have "stable" populations of wolfdog hybrids, we even do not have hybrids in nature. And only for that the law was made. Concrete other laws do not exists for hybrids in germany. In italy and france "hybrids" are forbidden but I think it is the same way like in germany. If someone would go to judge people would see that this "Law" is not made for forbidden "hybrids" in private ownership, but only for protection the nature. And this are two different things. Christian

14-06-2010, 18:54	#9
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	When you are talking about false papers who will know when the papers are wrong? That is what I mean, if you be open, you will know it. If you will not be, you never know. That is a wolfdog breed. Best example is F1 Mutara, white wolving with gsd without papers, and one pup was grey wolfdog! Because every wolf subspecies are from grey wolf canis lupus lupus even the arctic ones and of course canis lupus occidentalis too, like Lupina was. From the F 2 generation Mutara was always bred with a csw dog! There are F2 and F 3 Mutaras where you do not see the differnce between pure csw and mutt. Even the best special judges on the breed even did not see the wolfdog-mix in the worlddogshow last year...., not mut children as I wrote, different wolfdogs. That is the point. Christian

14-06-2010, 19:07	#10
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Yes, different wolfdogs, and I love wolfdogs, but if the point is maintaining the purity of the bloodlines and the goal/foundation of the breed - Carpathian wolves and GSDs with papers that can be traced all the way back to Horand. That was done so that the founders of the breed had a good idea of the phenotype and genotype they had to work with, at least in regards to the GSD genetics. Bringing in a North American wolf is NOT what was intended - otherwise t would've been done from the beginning. And to add in an unpapered GSD is also an abomination to me - you have NO IDEA of what is behind him - good, bad, ugly or great. Breeding is already like gambling... selective breeding will sometimes load the dice in your favor - that's where research comes in - but to bring in 2 total wildcards throws a monkey wrench into the system and perhaps many unwanted (all of it certainly unknown) genes. I would have had no issue at all if a Carpathian wolf and a Pohranicni Straze line GSD had been brought in to widen the gene pool - heck, I probably would look into importing one of the offspring myself for hybrid vigor! At least they are what the initial foundation stock was and at least the GSD would be a "known risk" with all the detailed information collected on GSDs. But I look at the mutara project and heck, it's no different to me than if they had brought in a mutt from the pound and a jackal. NOT a CSV. Not even close enough to be moderately acceptable to me. And with Italy being the largest breeding population of CSVs, and without their commitment to keep mutaras out of the breed, I don't see how we will be able to keep them out of the bloodlines... eventually somewhere down the line there will be mutara blood in the rest of the breed...