Co-ownership

yukidomari · 01/12/2010, 21h08

Just from reading some posts here I understand that some people aren't very happy about some of the breeding choices made with dogs they have produced. So say for example kennel A sells a dog to person B, who proceeds to breed this dog in a way that upsets Kennel A.

As far as I understand, for this reason many breeding-potential dogs are sold on co-ownership contracts here in the USA, so that Kennel A and person B must jointly decide on breeding matters. Puppies sold not to be bred are often sold on a castration contract with only limited registration.

Sometimes Kennel A will withhold full registration papers until some benchmark has been reached, sometimes that is to have titles, hip score, etc. So if Person B doesn't do this, he will not have registration papers and any 'illegal' litters born will never be able to be registered.

I have not heard of this on the boards and I was wondering if this was not commonly practiced in some parts of Europe?

Vaiva · 02/12/2010, 10h48

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Envoyé par yukidomari

I have not heard of this on the boards and I was wondering if this was not commonly practiced in some parts of Europe?

I can olny speak about Lithuania. Co-ownership here usually seems like this: person B gets a female for, let's say, half price, goes to shows, check health and breed her under the kennel A name (male chosen by kennel A, of course). Kennel A takes one/two puppies from the litter and the female is now totally belonging to person B.
In my opinion the more "sure" thing is to give a female, let's say, for free to a person B, who will take good care of her (shows, health checks divided by A and B), but all her litters will be under kennel A's name with males, chosen by kennel.

The question is - is it possible to find a person, who wants to have a top quality female (who is not "100% his") and who doesn't want to breed himself

You have to trust each other a lot and still have a very good contract, with all the possible situations in life should be mentioned...

hanninadina · 02/12/2010, 16h26

Sorry, that sounds all odd to me and that people only want to make business. If I buy a dog, it is mine. If I sell a dog, it will be the new owners his. All other things is business. There are a few people who earn their money with these deals. Awful.

yukidomari · 02/12/2010, 19h41

I'm sorry Hanninadina, was wondering which aspect of co-ownership you thought gave anyone any type of financial or business gain?

Co-ownership is used by most in the states when the dog is going to another person who has never had any experience in the breed yet wants to start to breed the dogs.

It allows for more guidance and control should anything go wrong. It's generally believed that a breeder is responsible for all the dogs they produce and has the ultimate responsibility to make sure that that dog is being well cared for and if bred, bred ethically, even if it should reside with another person.

Actually, a lot of good breeders in the states won't sell dogs without a castration contract to first time owners or persons not involved in the breed club (like average pet owner).. because too many times amateurs decide it might be fun to breed their dog once or twice with next door's dog, maybe sell it for some extra cash, maybe breed the dog when it is 11 months old, etc etc

Vaiva - Thanks for sharing how co-ownership might work in Lithuania!

Vaiva · 02/12/2010, 19h48

Citation:

Envoyé par hanninadina

Sorry, that sounds all odd to me and that people only want to make business. If I buy a dog, it is mine. If I sell a dog, it will be the new owners his. All other things is business. There are a few people who earn their money with these deals. Awful.

Just the oposite.
If I want not only to produce an extra amount of puppies, but to BREED, to reach something, to fulfill my breeding plan, I can not make it just with one female. I can not have all the dogs that I want to. Why? Because wolfdog takes a lot of time and needs a lot of love. I do not want my dog to live in a fenced yard - I want my dog to spend all the possible time with me, walking around at home, in town, visiting my friends - then wolfdog is happy, socialised dog. Is it possible if you own 5 dogs?

(no offence, it is just MY case, I really believe other people are phisically able to give equal love to their 5, 10, 15 dogs...)

Rona · 02/12/2010, 20h37

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Envoyé par hanninadina

Sorry, that sounds all odd to me and that people only want to make business. If I buy a dog, it is mine. If I sell a dog, it will be the new owners his. All other things is business. There are a few people who earn their money with these deals. Awful.

Christian, it's not the first time when you impose bad intentions on people without even acquiring proper information about their motifs.

I find it really sad that instead asking a simple question beginning with "WHY" you so often authomatically assume that somebody who acts differently than you is greedy, mean, bad, etc. etc. People live in various countries with different legal systems, have various lifestyles and problems and try to solve them as rationally as possible. Has it ever occured to you that not all of them are cynical, corrupted and money-oriented?

Mikael · 02/12/2010, 22h06

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Envoyé par Vaiva

In my opinion the more "sure" thing is to give a female, let's say, for free to a person B, who will take good care of her (shows, health checks divided by A and B), but all her litters will be under kennel A's name with males, chosen by kennel.

This is the one we use in Swedish, but the dog is yours by law after two litters.

We had one dog like this from a good breeder = Person, we even let her take tree litters on are female for free, as litter nr two was only two puppies. But now the dog is my sisters... And we will not breed her again, even if she is very good.

But this I think only works whit 100% trust.

BTW, in Sweden you can only have 5 litter / female by are kennel club, this to stop puppy mills whit pure breed dogs.

Very best regards / Mikael

Vaiva · 02/12/2010, 22h25

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Envoyé par Mikael

BTW, in Sweden you can only have 5 litter / female by are kennel club, this to stop puppy mills whit pure breed dogs.

Very best regards / Mikael

This one seems good

you mean you can not have more than 5 litters a year either?

Mikael · 02/12/2010, 22h41

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Envoyé par Vaiva

you mean you can not have more than 5 litters a year either?

No, but if you have more than two litters a year / kennel you must pay tax

5 litters / female / liftime is so that no female is to be ower used

Very best regards / Mikael

Gypsy Wolf · 08/12/2010, 23h41

I am a big fan of co-ownership. 2 of my 4 dogs are co-owned and I currently co-own 4 other dogs - 3 of which I have bred myself. I keep at least 1 pup (my pick) from each litter I've produced on a co-ownership to be able to utilize the genetics of the dog in the future, if so desired.
The dog is, for all intents and purposes, the pet/companion of the co-owner - they cover any/all of the expenses of the dog. The idea is to place a really high-quality dog in a great home that will show/work the dog, but may not have the money upfront for such a large purchase. Plus, I may want a pup back from that particular dog.
It is also a great way to be able to control your kennel name and genetics. Breedings are not allowed without my consent, though if/when I elect to breed that particular dog, the mate is my choice and I will be responsible for any expenses involved in the breeding. I will also take back the bitch to whelp the litter if the co-owner does not want to whelp the litter.
Each contract is unique. In some contracts, I will sign over total ownership after the litter, others I only want pick pup, others specify that the co-ownerhsip is permanent for the life of the dog. Overall, I have been very pleased with co-owning dogs. I have been very selective as to who I co-own with, and my co-owners generally become friends - we have the dog's best interests at heart, regardless of whose home the dog is in.
Of course, a contract is only as good as how well it can be enforced, and I have heard some horror stories - dogs sold on a limited registration co-ownership that "accidentally" got bred... I know I co-owned a bitch a few years ago that had to be spayed emergently from a severe case of "closed" Pyometra and I felt terrible, though of course my co-owner friend was very understanding - some things just happen.
I would think it would be much more difficult to co-own in Europe if the dogs in question lived in other countries - legal issues and kennel clubs with differing laws would make a red tape mess. Here, at least, it is easier to navigate the law and appeal to AKC to mediate problems.
There are also a lot of big-name breeders (at least in German Shepherd Dogs) that "farm out" brood bitches on co-owns and breed them, so that the dogs live in good homes and the pups are raised in a better environment than just a kennel. And the "breeder" does very little except rake in their percentage...

01/12/2010, 21h08	#1
yukidomari Moderator Date d'inscription: March 2010 Localisation: Los Angeles CA Messages: 847	Co-ownership Just from reading some posts here I understand that some people aren't very happy about some of the breeding choices made with dogs they have produced. So say for example kennel A sells a dog to person B, who proceeds to breed this dog in a way that upsets Kennel A. As far as I understand, for this reason many breeding-potential dogs are sold on co-ownership contracts here in the USA, so that Kennel A and person B must jointly decide on breeding matters. Puppies sold not to be bred are often sold on a castration contract with only limited registration. Sometimes Kennel A will withhold full registration papers until some benchmark has been reached, sometimes that is to have titles, hip score, etc. So if Person B doesn't do this, he will not have registration papers and any 'illegal' litters born will never be able to be registered. I have not heard of this on the boards and I was wondering if this was not commonly practiced in some parts of Europe?

02/12/2010, 19h41	#4
yukidomari Moderator Date d'inscription: March 2010 Localisation: Los Angeles CA Messages: 847	I'm sorry Hanninadina, was wondering which aspect of co-ownership you thought gave anyone any type of financial or business gain? Co-ownership is used by most in the states when the dog is going to another person who has never had any experience in the breed yet wants to start to breed the dogs. It allows for more guidance and control should anything go wrong. It's generally believed that a breeder is responsible for all the dogs they produce and has the ultimate responsibility to make sure that that dog is being well cared for and if bred, bred ethically, even if it should reside with another person. Actually, a lot of good breeders in the states won't sell dogs without a castration contract to first time owners or persons not involved in the breed club (like average pet owner).. because too many times amateurs decide it might be fun to breed their dog once or twice with next door's dog, maybe sell it for some extra cash, maybe breed the dog when it is 11 months old, etc etc Vaiva - Thanks for sharing how co-ownership might work in Lithuania! Dernière modification par yukidomari ; 02/12/2010 à 19h50

02/12/2010, 16h26	#3
hanninadina Senior Member Date d'inscription: November 2003 Messages: 2 466	Sorry, that sounds all odd to me and that people only want to make business. If I buy a dog, it is mine. If I sell a dog, it will be the new owners his. All other things is business. There are a few people who earn their money with these deals. Awful.

08/12/2010, 23h41	#10
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Date d'inscription: February 2010 Localisation: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Messages: 252	I am a big fan of co-ownership. 2 of my 4 dogs are co-owned and I currently co-own 4 other dogs - 3 of which I have bred myself. I keep at least 1 pup (my pick) from each litter I've produced on a co-ownership to be able to utilize the genetics of the dog in the future, if so desired. The dog is, for all intents and purposes, the pet/companion of the co-owner - they cover any/all of the expenses of the dog. The idea is to place a really high-quality dog in a great home that will show/work the dog, but may not have the money upfront for such a large purchase. Plus, I may want a pup back from that particular dog. It is also a great way to be able to control your kennel name and genetics. Breedings are not allowed without my consent, though if/when I elect to breed that particular dog, the mate is my choice and I will be responsible for any expenses involved in the breeding. I will also take back the bitch to whelp the litter if the co-owner does not want to whelp the litter. Each contract is unique. In some contracts, I will sign over total ownership after the litter, others I only want pick pup, others specify that the co-ownerhsip is permanent for the life of the dog. Overall, I have been very pleased with co-owning dogs. I have been very selective as to who I co-own with, and my co-owners generally become friends - we have the dog's best interests at heart, regardless of whose home the dog is in. Of course, a contract is only as good as how well it can be enforced, and I have heard some horror stories - dogs sold on a limited registration co-ownership that "accidentally" got bred... I know I co-owned a bitch a few years ago that had to be spayed emergently from a severe case of "closed" Pyometra and I felt terrible, though of course my co-owner friend was very understanding - some things just happen. I would think it would be much more difficult to co-own in Europe if the dogs in question lived in other countries - legal issues and kennel clubs with differing laws would make a red tape mess. Here, at least, it is easier to navigate the law and appeal to AKC to mediate problems. There are also a lot of big-name breeders (at least in German Shepherd Dogs) that "farm out" brood bitches on co-owns and breed them, so that the dogs live in good homes and the pups are raised in a better environment than just a kennel. And the "breeder" does very little except rake in their percentage...