Epilepsy and wolfdogs!?

[loco]

4 Dogs with Epilepsy in Holland which I heard off.

One from Poland who has primair epilepsy.
One from Holland who has epilepsy but do not know yet, if it is primair or secundair.
One from Holland who has primair epilepsy.
One from Holland who has secundair because off a other faillure off the body.

And the discussion is mostly about should you shut out all the line off the dog who has epilepsy ??( this is deffently not possible if you want to keep the breed )
Or only the dog ??
Some part off the bloodline ?? if yes untill how far you goes ??
How big is the problem ??
Is it wise to make a publiclist with dogs who has it ??
Aso aso aso.
Because it just is a disease which is really terrible for the dog but also for the owner.
I do not believe the story of milk or anything like that but on everything else I have a open mind .

Groette Martine.

[loco]

Sorry forgot .
Also the discussion goes.
How do you really know when it is primair and secundair we al know what is the diffrent but.....................
Should you trust the first veterinair, our should you go for a second opinion ???????? if the first say it is primair!!!

Groette Martine.

[loco]

And now it will be very intresting to also know how many cases there are known in Italie, France and the other country in Europe .

Groette Martine.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by loco

How do you really know when it is primair and secundair we al know what is the diffrent but.....................
Should you trust the first veterinair, our should you go for a second opinion ???????? if the first say it is primair!!!

Primary epilepsy is a genetic based inheritated type of epilepsy. So far there are NO diagnostics which can make the vet sure it is exactly such type...
Allthe vet can do is to rule out all other possibilities. So it means it is primar GENETIC epilepsy when it is not caused by:

* Brain Tumors
* Head Trama
* Infection, Cysts and Cancer
* Lead, Chemicals, Additives and Poisoning
* Liver Disease
* Low Blood Sugar
* Renal Kidney Failure
* Severe Worm Infestation
* Vaccinations
* Vitamin Deficiencies
* Abuse or neglect
* Air fresheners
* All toxic flea products
* BHA - a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* BHT- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Carpet powders
* Cell Phones
* Cigarette smoke
* Dryer sheets
* Dust
* Eating cat or dog feces
* Ethoxyquin- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Excessive exercise
* Fabric softeners
* Fumes from all bathroom cleaners
* Fumes from bleach
* Fumes from dusting products
* Fungi, Bacteria and Germs
* Hair spray
* Heartworm Pills
* Household cleaners, including pine cleaners
* Loud noises
* Low quality canned dog food
* Low quality commercial dog biscuits and treats
* Low quality dry dog food
* Lyme Encephalitis
* Lyme Vaccine
* Mold
* Overheating
* Paint chips from lead based paint
* Paint fumes
* Plastic bowls
* Rabies Vaccine
* Rawhides
* Red food dye- a preservative commonly found in dog foods
* Salt, Sugar, Aspartame, Monosodium Glutamate
* Scented candles
* Sodium Nitrate
* Stress
* Toxic flea collars
* Toxic shampoos and dips
* Vaccinations
* Vitamins with high sodium level

So much theory... And the reality is: the vets are saying it is primar when they do not find the reason for it... You see it is simple not possible to rule out all the possible reasons... So all they make are more or less tests (blood, usg, aso...) - in the most cases they check ONLY the blood... and done... for them it is primar...

But to be honest - when you see this list a vet can NEVER say it is primar - till there will be no DNA tests...

[loco]

oeps sorry.
But I hope that you copypaste the list .

Back to Topic,

That is mine point exactly, to have peace with "if we can not find anything thene" it will be .......(in this case Primair Epilepsy) .

For myself ( mine dog) I will defintly want I second opinion if not a third a fourth and so on.
I know it is not surtern until there is a DNA, but vets also make mistake's it will defintly not be the first time there is something they missed specialie when you see the list .

Groette Martine.

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by loco

oeps sorry.
But I hope that you copypaste the list .

Back to Topic,

That is mine point exactly, to have peace with "if we can not find anything thene" it will be .......(in this case Primair Epilepsy) .

For myself ( mine dog) I will defintly want I second opinion if not a third a fourth and so on.
I know it is not surtern until there is a DNA, but vets also make mistake's it will defintly not be the first time there is something they missed specialie when you see the list .

Groette Martine.

They say it's the primary epilepsy because it's safe. When they not know the cause and have the possibility to be a genetic disease, it's better not uses this dog on reproduction because the risk.
Supose the vet say that this epilepsy may be not genetic, you make a litter and born puppies with the problem, the vet will be guilty because he was irresponsible.

[Xhrista]

I think epilepsie (and every other ilniss) is genetic,only the way how is the Question.So you must never breed with A dog that have an ilniss.And look good to the other dogs in the line.Thats the only thing you could do.

Gr. Christa

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Xhrista

I think epilepsie (and every other ilniss) is genetic,only the way how is the Question.So you must never breed with A dog that have an ilniss.And look good to the other dogs in the line.Thats the only thing you could do.

Gr. Christa

So, you have a healty dog, this dog receive a strong beat in head by accident, after it he start with seizures time to time and turn in a epileptic dog, this epilepsy will be genetic?!
Really not, this epileptic dog can safelly be used in reproduction and he won't pass the problem, because he not have it in hiis genetic, an accident causes it.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Xhrista

I think epilepsie (and every other ilniss) is genetic,only the way how is the Question.

I was looking for some statistics and found this: before in the most cases the vets classified most cases of epilepsy as idiopathic (it means genetic based). But there were some studies done in Denemark and published in the 'Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine' in June 2008. And the results were:
- 25% of cases were classified as idiopathic - GENETIC based
- 16% as symptomatic (cause unknown)
- 45% as cryptogenic epilepsy (cause unknown)
- in 14% of these a classification was not possible

You can not say about epilepsy as 'genetic' illenes when only 1/4 of the cases have something to do with genetic based reasons...

I agree we must note such cases and not use any dogs where it is not 100% sure the epilepsy is a secondary epilepsy... To be relly sure we can not use any dogs with epilepsy... But it is really not needed to start any witch hunt...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by loco

And the discussion is mostly about should you shut out all the line off the dog who has epilepsy ??( this is deffently not possible if you want to keep the breed )
Or only the dog ??
Some part off the bloodline ?? if yes untill how far you goes ??

I know how the Belgian Shepherd dog breeders handle with it.... They take out of the breeding all dogs with epilepsy. But because Belgian Teuverens are a breed where genetic factor of the epilepsy is highly suspected many breeders wait till the dogs are 4 yers old before they breed with the dogs (in the most cases the primary form of epilepsy appear before the dog is 4 years old). It is like this by the 'infected' breeds.
So by CzW I think it is enough when will will take out the ill dog... till we have no proves it is 'in the line' and there are no DNA tests for CzWs....

Originally Posted by loco

How big is the problem ??

The scientist say the prevalence of epilepsy in every dog population is about 0.5 to 5.7%. So even if we wil have the best tests there will be still 0.5-5.7% of dogs with epilepsy...
And so far I can say by CzW you have much les than the 5%...

So even if the two cases of primary epilepsy you mentioned would be REALLY a primary epilepsy it will make 0.0083% of epileptic CzW.... You see it is even less that the proven minimum...

Originally Posted by loco

I do not believe the story of milk or anything like that but on everything else I have a open mind .

What seems to be impossible is sometimes possible... There were so many cases of kidney failure and death of dogs that many companies counted with MILIARDS of dolars which they will have to pay to the owners... Because of the compromise they agreed with "only" 25 millions...

Look on the list - one of the possible reasons for epilepsy is BHA (the same problem can cause BHT and ethoxyquin). All these are antioxidants which are pretty common in the dog food... So it is enough that there are some dogs which get more dog food with BHA or are more susceptible to it and you have another case of dog with epilepsy....