Norwegian ban on SW and CzW

[XaedasKSP]

I do know of the responsibility its is something needed when owning any dog not only a wolfdog. As for the advice well here on this forum I havent heard any advice regarding keeping of the wolfdog itself.....

If it goes about my knowledge of the dogs then I have heard about the CSV long ago but didnt plan then to own a dog, so when I decided to get a dog then I did check more info about it and in the end found out that it really is banned in Norway in a way that makes it impossible to own the dog in Norway until it gets legalized. While learning more about the CSV I did also discover the Saarloos and got more info about it. And after reading the breed characteristic I found out that it is very similar to the CSV in character and that some of its traits are even better for me and the place where I do mainly live. Therefore I decided to get a Saarloos. And while I am waiting on my pup to become 8 weeks, I do try to get most possible info about how to properly train a Saarloos so it can be a nice company dog for me and dont get into any "accidents". Ahh and I didnt make the reservation "over night" it took like 2 weeks to find a breeder with wolfgrey pups for sale after a long search through the internet and asking many breeders who didnt have any litters or planned ones soon.

As for the situation of the wolfdogs in Norway, well I think that publicity can only make it better like it did in the UK (some other people do also share this view and for example the Norwegian SW breeder got a homepage where they tell about the SWs, so its wrong to say that every owner of SW in Norway tries to "hide"). But since people got different points of view regarding how to make the situation of SW safer in Norway and unban the CSV then it becomes fast something to argue about.

What I plan to do is to get the legalising of CSV on the list of things to be done by the political party that I am a member of, so they can put this case first in "Fremskritt" (the partys newspaper), then on the "landsmøte", eventually to be voted upon in the Storting. Without going to deep into politics (so I dont get banned again) I can say that FrP care very much about the freedom of the individual so this case of banning a breed and preventing people from owning it with no real reason of doing so will be something that they shall gladly try to solve when they get the proper knowledge about the case. I dont want to talk especially about politics here but since the law is connected with the politics I cant just skip them since changing the law requires political action. I hope the moderator will understand this and dont ban for talking about politics when trying to change a law.

I hope you all have a nice Christmas, and again I wish you all a happy new year!

[Rona]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

As for the situation of the wolfdogs in Norway, well I think that publicity can only make it better like it did in the UK (some other people do also share this view and for example the Norwegian SW breeder got a homepage where they tell about the SWs, so its wrong to say that every owner of SW in Norway tries to "hide"). But since people got different points of view regarding how to make the situation of SW safer in Norway and unban the CSV then it becomes fast something to argue about.
!

Dear XaedasKSP,
Though deeply in my soul I think your "case" is hopeless , I want to make a few things clear, just to have clear conscience in the future:
1. A few months ago I talked with somebody from DEFRA who explained to me very precisely why the ban on wolfdogs in the UK was lifted. I don't want to go into details, but the reasons were entirely different from what you imagine. And unlike you, I don't specatulate what they might have been, but know what they were.

2. If you had spent enough time on reading the forum you would have known that the problems of wofldogs in the UK are totally different than in Norway and wouldn't notoriously be practising "wishful thinking" and speculating about the products of your imagination.

3. Wolfdog.org is a very rich source of information about bringing up pups, about living with wolfdogs - lots of topics on how to train them, how to solve problems, anticipate difficulties, etc.!!! From what you write, one can clearly see you haven't read many threads, if any at all. You complain that people do not help you get informed, but have you asked any specific questions? Have you enquired about anything? So far you've been writing mainly about yourself! Per Olav and other experienced owners and breeders try to get you informed, but your reaction so far has been weird - you keep convincing everyone that you know better! (which sadly, doesn't show in what you're writing )

Just to give you an example: GSD, CSV and SW are different breeds. Have you read topics about differences among them? There are quite a few good threads on the English and Polish forums. If you had, you wouldn't have stated that you're a potential 'experienced' owner of a wolfdog due to the fact that you owned a GSD .

5. You write that you studied legal regulations, rules, etc. but people who are older and have experienced more are aware that there is more to life than "papers". Often the 'unwritten' knowledge is more important and more valuable than readings. Noone sane would let a surgeon operate on a patient if his expertise came only from books or reading of a forum for surgeons. Do you understand what I'm trying to tell you? (Naprawdę życzliwie!!!)

If Per Olav, who is one of the most experienced, conciliatory, and kindest people on this forum, who has been involved in struggling for the breed in Norway for years now, tries to tell you something, why don't you listen to him? Why do keep arguing with somebody who's trying to save you and your dog from serious troubles in the future? Why don't you appreciate that he's offerring you his time, by explaining the same things again and again? You may not be aware of this, but you sound very arrogant and self-confident in tone, but turn very ignorant when it comes to content. You simply don't know how little you know about wolfdogs , behave as if you knew everything, but in fact refer only to what you imagine, not to facts!

Nobody here is telling you that you shouldn't buy a wolfdog, but everybody advises you to be patient, to educte yourself, to see the dogs live, to become more aware of what their needs and situation in the country are, not only on paper, but in reality, etc. before you actually get one.

If you are unable to listen to people, who're using your language, how will you be able to listen to your wolfdog, whose communication system is much more subtle and indirect? If you don't listen to you dog, you won't be able to build a sound relationship with him; if you don't, you'll sooner or later be in trouble.This is exactly what some forum members mean, when they say that you're unsuitable owner: you've shown here that you're not a good listener, which is the crucial characteristic of a good wolfdog owner.

I really wish you'd get a wolfdog one day, but remember: wofldogs' main purpose is to teach their owners modesty. We love our wolfish pets, though this "educational process" is sometimes painful in mental and sometimes even physical and economic sense. The 'quality' of the owner can be measured by how he recieves these 'lessons' and how much he is able to learn from them. It's still worse, if the costs have to be paid by the dogs, and this is what Per Olav and Steffen seem to fear most, while you treat their worries as a personal crusade against you.

Please, treat this honest post of mine as a Christmas gift, and reflect upon it before you start "fighting back".
Merry Christms!
Rona

PS. One more piece of advice: if you really care for the wd breeds, keep anything concerned with them, as far as possible from politics, as Per Olav advises you! Show at least here, that youy're ready to learn from the more exeperienced!

[Per Olav]

Dear XaedasKSP.

Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Then I once again do regret your lack of knowing the body of politics and how laws are made.

First of all I apply to you to search once more and carefully study what is available to the public concering the Norwegian Dog Law and its Breed Spesific Legislation - which in this matter mean the reasons why certain breeds are banned. Secondly you should be aware of papers received by others but the decisionmakers do influence the making of laws and third the fact that a huge amount of papers are not available, e g from people on this forum and other foras our Ministry received close to a thousands mails and petions informing of the breeds. Mails and information which influence to the Ministry were less to none.

You also should bear in mind that if not for the knowledge of the spokesman of your Party - a close and dear friend of mine and a breeder of a large breed herself -the outcome of your Party's voting of BSL would be rather unpredictable. Now this MP has resigned from politics and no one can tell which side your party will support if the dog law once again should be debated by our Parliament.

Beeing unaware of the fact that some SW owners are residing in your proximity and do have homepages describing the breed do tell me something of your efforts in seeking and also getting some "in real life" information. Myself I've requested one of them to contribute to this thread, if he decide to do so future will show.

As Rona writes - the "UK situation" is not comparable to the Norwegian one.

and at last - Claressa - a country fellow man of yours has been to the Czech Republic studying the training of these breeds. Fortunately he made up his mind of not possessing one. To my knowledge he is a skilled owner training his dog by the Norwegian Rescue Dog Organization.
--
po

[XaedasKSP]

Well I dunno who to answer first but I do too again wish you all a Happy New year and I hope you had a nice Christmas.

Maybe I shall start in chronological order:

So first of all Rona: Thank you for your gift I dont intend to "fight back" just comment some things from your nice and long post.

Starting with a personal religious feeling about me (just dont tell me that souls are not religion) Quote: "Though deeply in my soul I think your "case" is hopeless " end of quote. you are not very objective.

I just have to comment that gladly many people on the polish forum were more objective and they helped me with giving links to SW breeders homepages and supported my idea of getting a SW. I write this just so the debatants who dont understand polish and cant read the polish forum, dont think that you represent all the people from the polish forum.

1. As for the lifting of the ban well maybe I dont know so perfectly what have happend in the UK but what I know is that if no proper action will be taken then the whole case in Norway will just lie dead as it have done since the ban. So if someone wish the CSV ban to be lifted a little sooner than when our grandgrand children will be able to buy CSVs, then all possibilities are worth trying or so do I think and thats why I thought of most naturally using the political party that I am a member of to get the case of lifting the ban upwards in the system. A political party have much greater power than single individuals and if they support lifting of the ban then we will be much closer the ban being lifted.

2. Ok my bad I havent read enough about the case, but still I think that something can be done instead of just sitting and wishfully thinking that the dog will get unbanned by itself. Ahh ok I am sorry I know people have done a public protest action and now are doing some hidden actions but if those hidden actions dont give any result in many years. Then it cant harm to try some more public kind of action and it might actually work and this time not an action that is public because some people support it, but supported by a political party (thats when the authorities start caring).

3. & 4. I have said that in the responses that I got in this thread there were no advice other than "Skip buying the dog, no matter what you do you will never be good enough to have a wolfdog" that was the "advice" here compressed to a short statement. Of course in other threads and topics there are some valuable info I think, that I am reading even if Per Olav think that: Quote "You don't learn by reading on a forum" End of Quote

I do still think that there are many interesting topics that bring valuable information. But I do always have the breeder to ask for the most valuable info and literature about wolfdogs although I dont know if its good enough since its hard to find any "guidebook" precisely about the SW.

As for the experience well I have never stated that I am experienced with wolfdogs because I have had a GSD, I just said that I have experience with dogs in general and that I am not someone who is gonna buy a SW as the first dog in the life.

Regarding the experience, well if people were thinking in this way then there would be no new owners of SWs since you cant be experienced with the dog without having it.....and if you in order to have it need to be experienced...then it becomes a locked circle.

BTW I think that in Poland this whole thing is much easier than in other places, since I do see on the polish forum people who keep their dogs in flats inside a block or who get their pups before they are 7 weeks or its their first experience with owning a dog (any dog) and no one is bombing them with criticism.....but actually I wasnt too bombed with criticism on the polish forum but advised how to easier find a SW breeder.

As for the costs of having a wolfdog well I am prepared that the dog can do more "fun things" than any other kind of dog, so I prepare for the "educational process" with most possible patience and time as for the mental aspects. As for the physical ones well I am not small by nature so I should be strong enough :P And as for the economic ones well even if the dog eats half of my house I shall not go bancrupt :P

As for other preparations well then as I have said I am reading everything possible about SWs and wolfdogs in general and asking the breeder by mail when I wonder about something special about the dog + I got description of the pups by the breeder and the breeder herself advised me which pup will probably be the best one for me. I dunno if I am good enough prepared but I am at least more prepared than many other owners I have read about who just bought their CSV or SW on an impulse with 0 preparations or even theoretical reading about the race. And its still a month until I shall pick up my pup from Germany.

Now lets answer GalomyOak:

First of all I must congratualte you upon being the first person in this topic to answer me and write about the race and your own experience without criticising me personally =D I do appreciate this.

As for your experience its nice to read it all I just have to stop in the place when you say its required to own a possesion with a especially prepared kennel etc. Since many people are living with CSVs in blocks in Poland for example and claim that it goes perfectly well.

Personally my main place of living (and that is where the dog shall live) is a large house (350 m2) with a large garden the posession is about 1500 m2 and forests close by. So space shall not be a problem although I dont plan to build a kennel since I want to keep the dog inside the house when it shall sleep or rest etc. Since I wish to keep it as a company dog, (It shall ofc. be some hours during the day in the garden to run around in addition to the walks to the woods) so I plan to have it with me in the house preferably than in a kennel and I hope it shall go well.

And for the last answer to Per Olav:

Well I do know a little about the making of laws (since I study law) but ofc. not close to as much as you do so I shall not argue.

As for my political party then I am pretty sure that when they get explained the reason of CSV being banned and that it wasnt the same reason as with the other dogs then they shall very quickly write about the case in their newspaper and talk about it on the "landsmøte" (The fact that Kristin Halvorsen asked for revoting of the ban in order to get the CSV banned, will probably, be also something important to point at for FrP).

As for me being unaware of the SW owners in my proximity well its not so easy to find them on the internet. I have done a big effort searching for the breeders and I found the Norwegian breeder for example only because of the help from a Finnish breeder because the homepage of the Norwegian breeder: http://www.ulveblikk.com/ didnt come up in Google when searching for Saarloos breeder. And first later on I got response from the German breeder that I am going to buy the pup from. (Earlier I got response from a Czech breeder but I decided to wait for a wolfgrey pup rather than buy a forestbrown one).

But if you know some SW owners in Telemark (thats where I live mainly and where the dog shall live all the time), Vestfold (its close to both Telemark and Oslo) or Akershus/Oslo (I got examinations on my university there) who got some homepages then feel free to link to them since they cant be found in google at least not with the normal seeking words like Saarloos Wolfhond etc. Ah and as far as I know Rogaland is nearly as far away as Trondheim from the place where I live, ah btw never mind now I see Claressa is not the SW owner you mentioned.

As for the situation in Norway well maybe its totally different but I know of many examples where some laws were changed after a political party started supporting the change. And since people said that it was egoistic to only care about mine dog and not the future of the race as a whole then this can be my effort to try to lift the ban on CSV and make the future of SW safer. If it works then it will be fantastic if it doesnt well at least I will try to do something for the wolfdogs in general.

And either way if my keeping of the SW will be a success and everything will go well and the SW becomes adult and still everything will go well then later on after the CSV gets unbanned (if it can happen in the next 10 years) I plan to own a CSV as dog number 2.

BTW thanks for the help, for the first time in this whole topic I see you are actually trying to help me (instead of criticising me) and told me that there are SW owners in Norway who live close to my place thats nice =D

[Per Olav]

XaedasKSP

There might be some SW owners not far away from you, but they have to "unvail" themselves - I'm not the one to do so.

As I've mentioned before the law should been reviewed as a whole not only the BSL part of it. And I regret you violating the efforts of many good people by making this a urgent matter of personal interrests because your explisit wishes of a wolfy look alike dog.
--
po

[Rona]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

I just have to comment that gladly many people on the Polish forum were more objective and they helped me with giving links to SW breeders homepages and supported my idea of getting a SW. I write this just so the debatants who dont understand polish and cant read the polish forum, dont think that you represent all the people from the polish forum.

I suppose some Polish forum members were simply relieved you gave up the idea of buying a CSV, which are illegal in Norway They probably don't read English forum, don't realize the specific and sensitive situation of SW in Norway and the possible harm people like you may do to both breeds through their irresponsible "actions".

On reading your answer I see talking with you is useless. Bye

[Per Olav]

Originally Posted by Rona

On reading your answer I see talking with you is useless. Bye

I'm making your words mine. Bye.
--
po

[XaedasKSP]

Quote: "And I regret you violating the efforts of many good people" End of Quote

So because I will get a SW then you think that I will violate the efforts of many good people. So if 11 + other anonymous people will get a SW from the Norwegian breeder and later on many more it will be absolutely ok, but mine SW will violate all the efforts.....well I think its a strange way of thinking but I cant help it if you think so then you are allowed to do so.

But the future can prove it wrong after I will have my SW for a long period of time without anything getting "violated"......

[Grin]

Originally Posted by Rona

I suppose some Polish forum members were simply relieved you gave up the idea of buying a CSV, which are illegal in Norway

Yes, that (I think) is exactly the case.

[GalomyOak]

I am only an owner...by far, no expert. I have never met a Saarloos before - the high degree of health and breeding issues, and skittish nature described in this breed turned me away from it - not quite as naive, I now realize these things also exist with the CSV - there is a lot of careful work to be done within both breeds. I own 3 adult CSVs, and an 8 month old male - a full brother and sister (different litters) from Finland, a female from CZ, and a male from Italy - same breed, mostly diverse from one another (except for the siblings). When I got my first female, I "broke the rules" and decided to import without visiting the breeder. I had worked with dogs most of my life - and for a short while - wolves. I read, and read, and researched the breed, and the lines of my dogs for 8 months before my first dog arrived. I bought a house and property, and set up a kennel yard in such a way, that even if a dog with the abilities of a superhero emerged from the airplane, I felt confident in my facilities to protect my dogs and neighbors. I spoke with owners in the US - I contacted owners abroad and asked many questons. Last spring, I had the opportunity to travel to Europe, and see many different CSVs, including the parents/siblings of some of my dogs. The breed became a journey for me, not a destination...

Despite all of the research, I still was not completely aware of what I was purchasing...IT CAN'T SIMPLY BE READ ABOUT...Even though most/many CSV personalities embrace the standard, each dog has a distinctly unique set of quirks: some which are positive, some that are very challenging - some that could be dangerous if one did not recognize and address the behavior effectively, and allowed it to escalate - these signs are very subtle, and frequently not at all like a GSD, or any other breed, or even a wolf. And then, there are the oddball puppies who don't meet the standard...I have met CSVs with even stronger and bolder personalites than mine - with the experience, patience, and dedication of their owners, they were really exciting dogs to watch in training. I've met the same type of dog with inexperienced owners...the dogs were time bombs waiting to injure someone because they were not placed in an appropriate home. Experience is not something to only read about...it involves an investment of time, "getting your hands dirty", of money for proper facilities quite often (I can't imagine working with my dogs if they did not have time and space to run SAFELY unleashed with other dogs, and simply "be dogs"), a huge degree of humiliation, and a huge amount of cleverness and discipline to make the dogs realize their full potential - especially in front of critics. Experience must be through observation and practice. The new owner should be settled, with limited possibilites of life changing events that could disrupt healthy ownership - I am 27 - still young - I know firsthand how quickly life changes at our age in this generation. Looking back, I was foolish not to heed the warnings of experienced breeders to meet the breed first, to know it, to see it with objective eyes - and only lucky that I didn't pay some huge price. This is a unique creature with good, but also very difficult qualities...not simply an entity to be possessed someone that adores the wolf, or by someone who doesn't want to be told what to do by "the man".

As I have begun the process of placing my first litter, I can use my own mistakes to learn from, and really reflect on where my puppies should go - but it is still a murky process. I have received over 200 inquiries...thus far, I have turned down about 90% of the potential owners...it's something I think all breeders should think about so heavily....

Knowing what the "right move" is with this breed, in terms of legality, upbringing, feeding, training, breeding - or anything else...is not light or easy. Accidents WILL happen...

I love my dogs and breed immensely...but to love is to accept them for what they really are...and not what we fantacize about, or justify in our mind. We must provide what they really need, even if it means sacrificing our own time, money, or happiness sometimes.

Whatever your future holds...I hope it is successful and prosperous.

Marcy

[Claressa]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

I do know of the responsibility its is something needed when owning any dog not only a wolfdog.

Sure, you are supposed to take care of another living creature.
But this is not what I am talking about.
I think Per Olav describing it some better in this post: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showpos...&postcount=243

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

Ahh and I didnt make the reservation "over night" it took like 2 weeks to find a breeder with wolfgrey pups for sale after a long search through the internet and asking many breeders who didnt have any litters or planned ones soon.

Haha! Personally I don`t think 2 weeks are any better. If I were you I would at least try to visit a breeder, before making a desision about if I should purschase a saarloos or not. And also I don`t think color should be so important, I think it is more important to find the rigth induvidual suited for you.

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

And if you really want to be the hero, why dont you organise a puppy course for wolfdogs.

A littlebit disrespectful I think. In my opinion he already is a hero
No one else that I know of has made such a great effort to avoid or lift the banning. Your doing a great job Per Olav, after visiting your webpage I can see that you also write like a true professional!

Best regards,
Steffen

[loup-de-bretagne]

Good luck with your SW pup. It took me six months to find my first one. The Saarloos can be a very difficult dog to live with and not good with strangers or visitors. I had to move house and buy land to walk my dogs on as my neighbours didn't like them at all; even though they always told me how much they like dogs!

The situation in the UK is not very good. Since the change in the law many wolfdogs and cross breeds of wolfdogs have been sold and now a lot of them are for re-homing. People found that they do not suit their 'life style'. Owning one of these dogs means you have to change your life to suit your dog!

Have a good new year 2010.

[XaedasKSP]

Well one of my points, was exactly that I live on the outside of a small city and there are very few people who live around my place and there is a nice big forest very close. So a dog that dont like many people around should be happy with the surroundings of the place where I live.

I wish you all a fantastic, successfull new year!

[loup-de-bretagne]

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

Well one of my points, was exactly that I live on the outside of a small city and there are very few people who live around my place and there is a nice big forest very close. So a dog that dont like many people around should be happy with the surroundings of the place where I live.

I wish you all a fantastic, successfull new year!

Remember that the SW learns everything in the first 4 months of life. This is the time to socialise him with everybody you know; adults, children and animals. Both mine were horrible pups but matured well!

[XaedasKSP]

I have at last got my little wolfie to Norway today. Everything went well with the travel (with the exception of my father having to travel with the pup since I couldnt lend a car in Germany because you have to be 25 to do it), and the customs on Gardermoen where very kind since they didnt make any "drama" when they found out that there is nothing about the Echinococcus worm pill written in the passport. Instead of making any drama or not letting the dog in they called the borderzone veterinary who gave the pup the required pill after he told me that it will for sure not harm the pup to get the pill twice (it have got it already in Germany when it was 5 weeks old according to the breeder). Either way any myths about "bad, evil" customs got busted...

As for the little wolfie herself (yes I got a female instead of a male since the breeder chose the best pup she could choose for me and then it was a female called Miata (Miata Wakanda Tachunga)) it is absolutely awesome, it wasnt afraid at the airport (and there was really many people there) and it didnt looked scared, instead it was sniffing around on things very curious of the new enviroment then the car and finally my home where it will be living. So its indeed a good tempered pup as the breeder said Ahh and it looks totally awesome too, exactly like a wolfcub....people did actually think its a little wolf until I told them its a Saarloos (when waiting on the veterinary on the airport). And actually NO ONE not even a single person told me anything bad or wanted to harm the pup.....so I have been lucky and missed the whole army of "wolfhaters" that I was warned about, but instead met very many "wolf likers/passionates" and I hope it shall continue that way in Skien where I live.

I shall keep you informed about the success (I hope it will be and I will do everything possible to make it be) story of me and the Saarloos. And post some pictures soon in the picture section of the forum.

Have a nice week everyone!

[XaedasKSP]

I have now added the pictures of the little wolfie in my album, made just some minutes ago right now its sleeping on its pillow next to me

(I would edit my last post but somehow the edit button is gone)