Norwegian ban on SW and CzW

Per Olav · 23-12-2009, 01:19

I've never heard keeping of dogs in general was a political issue. My guess is that you on this forum will find people of very different political platforms, but politics are rarely a subject of this forum or any forum discussing dogs.

The SW situation in Norway is fragile and depending on owners who are known to and familiar with the breed and it "peculiarities". Our authorities have since long stated that a small step outside the path may be disasterous to the breed. If someone make an official complaint about feeling the dog as a threat, scared by a dog's howling, growling etc this may lead to another discussions of the wolfdogs as "dangerous breeds". And to me it seem you have no idea of what you are facing in respect to your opponents on the anti wolf and wolfdog platform. It's a pity this is not understood. Instead of fighting someone's right to keep a SW just because it by now is legal - it's a fragile right. I'll better see you talking to experienced SW owners, observing their dogs and their behaviour and by that getting more experienced to this breed. And if you then decide that a SW is the right breed for you - why not start fighting for changing the law as a whole and by that securing the future of the SW inside the border of your country.
--
po

Rona · 23-12-2009, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Per Olav

I've never heard keeping of dogs in general was a political issue.

Because it isn't.

Unless somebody suffers from an obsession (like XaedasKSP does) and has an obtrusive need to associate everything with it.

In my opionion, "torturing" people in every post with one's political views, whatever they are, on a dog forum IS bullying!

If I were the SW breeder I would definitely inform myself and learn more about the situation of dogs and esp. wolfdogs in Norway before sending my pup there. Unfortunately, some people tend to extrapolate their own intentions on others (at least so it seems

), which is just sad. If SW are banned in Norway, which might happen any time in the light of what is happenning there at the moment, CSV will be banned even more - in such circumstances competition between the two breeds would be absurd.

Per Olav, I fully understand your anxiety since your true worry about the CSV breed and hard work over several years on building its positive image in the Norwegian society may be now ruined by a few irresponsible owners who are unable to understand the sensitive situation of the wolfdog breeds in your country

. I guess Angelika was writing about such people last year:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika It has been the fault of our generation to educate the present generation to be so "extremely" self-confident. Seems they are thinking: here I come - nothing can stop me (...)
It would be better to reflect, to inform themselves, to take important things seriously.

I cannot agree more and only hope Norwegian wolfdogs' fate would be better than Majlo's. Even if Majlo survives, I cannot imagine the effects of such a long separation of any wolfdog from his pack

XaedasKSP · 23-12-2009, 21:02

Well if you have read some of my last posts, then I have written there that I try to find every possible info on the internet about the SWH and I am trying to find some extra literature about them and how to properly train them. And I hope I will find something. Either way if I wont know how to properly teach the dog regarding some kind of behaviour then I shall ask the breeder or/and ask on the forum below in the wolfdog topic.

As for the time being I am waiting on my pup to become 8 weeks and meanwhile learn everything possible about SWHs. As for finding other owners in Norway well I think this can be rather difficult in the area where I live. I know just about the SWH breeder in Trondheim but its like over 600 kilometers from the place where I live.

And as for the wolfdogs I think that it can only help if there will be many SWHs in Norway. Since it will prove that CSV can be safe too. And I know that there are maybe many opponents of wolfes in Norway (although I have never met one in person only on the webforums) but I hope I wont have any problems with them. If I ever get wolfopponents knocking on my door or meet them anywhere then I shall ofc. ask for your advice as to how to properly respond to them.

And as I said before if you need any help with any political pressure to make the future of SWH and CSV safer in Norway then I shall gladly help. And I shall definitly not be an "irresponsible" owner.

I wish you all a great christmas time, and a wonderful new year!

Per Olav · 23-12-2009, 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by XaedasKSP

Well if you have read some of my last posts, then I have written there that I try to find every possible info on the internet about the SWH and I am trying to find some extra literature about them and how to properly train them. And I hope I will find something. Either way if I wont know how to properly teach the dog regarding some kind of behaviour then I shall ask the breeder or/and ask on the forum below in the wolfdog topic.

You don't learn by reading on a forum, at the most you get some information which you carefully have to select the importance of by yourself. You learn by the help and supervision of experienced owners or trainers and then practicing what you've learned by your own. There are no Norwegian dog trainers knowing this breed.

Quote:

As for the time being I am waiting on my pup to become 8 weeks and meanwhile learn everything possible about SWHs. As for finding other owners in Norway well I think this can be rather difficult in the area where I live. I know just about the SWH breeder in Trondheim but its like over 600 kilometers from the place where I live.

You don't know of any other owners except one living 600 km away, and still you are confident in traing a wolfdog, a breed unknow to anyone but a handfull? And what about quarrantine? If you get your dog from abroad I suppose you have to follow normal import procedures - including rabies testing, quarrantining etc?

Quote:

And as for the wolfdogs I think that it can only help if there will be many SWHs in Norway. Since it will prove that CSV can be safe too. And I know that there are maybe many opponents of wolfes in Norway (although I have never met one in person only on the webforums) but I hope I wont have any problems with them. If I ever get wolfopponents knocking on my door or meet them anywhere then I shall ofc. ask for your advice as to how to properly respond to them.

The more inexperienced owners the greater chance for making real trouble for the serious ones. The future of the Norwegian SW's already is fragile.

SWs have been poisoned and killed inside their dog yard. The only breeder ended his kennel some years ago because of the safety of his dogs. Some time ago I was requested by this breeder to host a dog for a newly started SW kennel cause this experienced former breeder did not want to expose the dog and himself for any more trouble by the opponents of the breed. You hardly meet Norwegian SW owners at dog shows and they don't take part in any public discussion or on national foras. Except for one, SW owners of this country do not exist in public. What do this tell you?

Quote:

And as I said before if you need any help with any political pressure to make the future of SWH and CSV safer in Norway then I shall gladly help.

Heaven forbid,

Quote:

And I shall definitly not be an "irresponsible" owner.

In my opinnon you've already proven to be one. My sympathy to the responsible SW owners of this country.

XaedasKSP · 23-12-2009, 23:20

Well as for the law rules regarding import I have a good overview of them since I have both read the rules from "mattilsynet" and spoken with "mattilsynet" personally about the import. Germany is listed as a rabies free nation so after I give an import declaration to the "mattilsynet" they shall give me an import allowance of a pup below 3 months. So there will be no quarantine etc. The customs need only the paper from the "mattilsynet" that I will get before the import.

If everybody had to relay on other SW owners then there would be only SW owners in Trondheim, but from what I know there are going to be many new SW owners in Norway in 2010 and probably many of them will live far away from Trondheim. So it should be possible by using a proper amount of time, patience and carefullness to properly train a SW. And I am not totally unexperienced since I have about 14 years of experience with a German Sheperd.

And if you say that SW owners dont exist in public well then maybe its the reason why the law is so "unsafe". In England the CSV was banned too and then they took a very public course of action which made the ban lifted. So maybe its something to think about I dont know. The wolfhaters are like 0,1 % of the whole population I think or maybe I have just had the luck of never meeting anyone of them. I think you can find more "rotweiler-haters" in Norway, and still Rotweilers are not in danger of being illegal.

I think that the other reason of not meeting so many SW owners on the foras is that the race is not so well known as the CSV so its not only in Norway but in other countries too that its hard to find any SW forum, it was even hard to find the breeders in Europe (where the dog is not in any "unsafe" position) so the cause is maybe the rareness of the breed too.

If you already think that I am an "irresponisible" owner....well I dunno what you do base this statement upon other than the fact that I think that more publicity about a race and more knowledge will just be good and not bad. I think that most "bans" and quarries between people come from the lack of knowledge and the fear of the "unknown".

I think there are few dog owners that use/will use so much time and effort on their dog and really care about it. And I am not a person that do easily give up when meeting on difficulties. I am not confident that I will do it perfectly or anything like that but I know that with enough effort it should go well and I can always ask both the breeder and other people who own SWs if something is not as it should be.

I think that it could be wiser to think about those anonymous 11 or more new SW owners that will get their dogs in 2010 in Norway than about me. What is hidden from the public eyes is more often the reason of something not wanted that happen. Instead of using your efforts on criticising me because I am going to have a SW, it could be actually better to give some helpful advice......(just dont tell me to resign from buying the dog).

Claressa · 26-12-2009, 04:41

Dear XaedasKSP,

after reading this very long and heavy discussion,
I must say that it seems to me that you just discovered the breed.
For how long time have you really known about the CzW or the SW?
Just by reading this discussion, I am under the impression of that you discovered CzW somewhere in November 2009 and then was seriously considering to import a CsW Illegally to Norway! Shame on you!

And then suddently you discovered the Saarloos, and it seems like you made an reservation as soon as you knew about its existence...

I my opinion this is not responsible, no matter what kind of breed you choose. This is not a decission you should make over the nigth.

14 years of walking the family`s german shepherd don`t automaticly make you experienced as a dog owner. It does`nt really matter how many years you owned a dog or not, it is more about what you experience together with your dog during these years. And what you make of it.

I am not convinced that you have taken enougth time to consider this.

You should respect the knowledge from more experienced owners and breeders, listen to their advice and take them seriously.
Listen their advice and memorize them.

Listen to Per Olav. The situation with both of these breeds in our country is VERY fragile. Owning a wolfdog in such as our country, follows a huge RESPONSIBILITY!

Hope you understand what I`m talking about, despite my kinder-garden english...

Merry christmas to you all & Best wishes for the new year to come..

Best regards,
Steffen

XaedasKSP · 26-12-2009, 05:51

I do know of the responsibility its is something needed when owning any dog not only a wolfdog. As for the advice well here on this forum I havent heard any advice regarding keeping of the wolfdog itself.....

If it goes about my knowledge of the dogs then I have heard about the CSV long ago but didnt plan then to own a dog, so when I decided to get a dog then I did check more info about it and in the end found out that it really is banned in Norway in a way that makes it impossible to own the dog in Norway until it gets legalized. While learning more about the CSV I did also discover the Saarloos and got more info about it. And after reading the breed characteristic I found out that it is very similar to the CSV in character and that some of its traits are even better for me and the place where I do mainly live. Therefore I decided to get a Saarloos. And while I am waiting on my pup to become 8 weeks, I do try to get most possible info about how to properly train a Saarloos so it can be a nice company dog for me and dont get into any "accidents". Ahh and I didnt make the reservation "over night" it took like 2 weeks to find a breeder with wolfgrey pups for sale after a long search through the internet and asking many breeders who didnt have any litters or planned ones soon.

As for the situation of the wolfdogs in Norway, well I think that publicity can only make it better like it did in the UK (some other people do also share this view and for example the Norwegian SW breeder got a homepage where they tell about the SWs, so its wrong to say that every owner of SW in Norway tries to "hide"). But since people got different points of view regarding how to make the situation of SW safer in Norway and unban the CSV then it becomes fast something to argue about.

What I plan to do is to get the legalising of CSV on the list of things to be done by the political party that I am a member of, so they can put this case first in "Fremskritt" (the partys newspaper), then on the "landsmøte", eventually to be voted upon in the Storting. Without going to deep into politics (so I dont get banned again) I can say that FrP care very much about the freedom of the individual so this case of banning a breed and preventing people from owning it with no real reason of doing so will be something that they shall gladly try to solve when they get the proper knowledge about the case. I dont want to talk especially about politics here but since the law is connected with the politics I cant just skip them since changing the law requires political action. I hope the moderator will understand this and dont ban for talking about politics when trying to change a law.

I hope you all have a nice Christmas, and again I wish you all a happy new year!

23-12-2009, 01:19	#1
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	I've never heard keeping of dogs in general was a political issue. My guess is that you on this forum will find people of very different political platforms, but politics are rarely a subject of this forum or any forum discussing dogs. The SW situation in Norway is fragile and depending on owners who are known to and familiar with the breed and it "peculiarities". Our authorities have since long stated that a small step outside the path may be disasterous to the breed. If someone make an official complaint about feeling the dog as a threat, scared by a dog's howling, growling etc this may lead to another discussions of the wolfdogs as "dangerous breeds". And to me it seem you have no idea of what you are facing in respect to your opponents on the anti wolf and wolfdog platform. It's a pity this is not understood. Instead of fighting someone's right to keep a SW just because it by now is legal - it's a fragile right. I'll better see you talking to experienced SW owners, observing their dogs and their behaviour and by that getting more experienced to this breed. And if you then decide that a SW is the right breed for you - why not start fighting for changing the law as a whole and by that securing the future of the SW inside the border of your country. -- po Last edited by Per Olav; 23-12-2009 at 10:15.

26-12-2009, 04:41	#6
Claressa Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Rogaland Posts: 4	Dear XaedasKSP, after reading this very long and heavy discussion, I must say that it seems to me that you just discovered the breed. For how long time have you really known about the CzW or the SW? Just by reading this discussion, I am under the impression of that you discovered CzW somewhere in November 2009 and then was seriously considering to import a CsW Illegally to Norway! Shame on you! And then suddently you discovered the Saarloos, and it seems like you made an reservation as soon as you knew about its existence... I my opinion this is not responsible, no matter what kind of breed you choose. This is not a decission you should make over the nigth. 14 years of walking the family`s german shepherd don`t automaticly make you experienced as a dog owner. It does`nt really matter how many years you owned a dog or not, it is more about what you experience together with your dog during these years. And what you make of it. I am not convinced that you have taken enougth time to consider this. You should respect the knowledge from more experienced owners and breeders, listen to their advice and take them seriously. Listen their advice and memorize them. Listen to Per Olav. The situation with both of these breeds in our country is VERY fragile. Owning a wolfdog in such as our country, follows a huge RESPONSIBILITY! Hope you understand what I`m talking about, despite my kinder-garden english... Merry christmas to you all & Best wishes for the new year to come.. Best regards, Steffen Last edited by Claressa; 26-12-2009 at 04:43.

23-12-2009, 21:02	#3
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	Well if you have read some of my last posts, then I have written there that I try to find every possible info on the internet about the SWH and I am trying to find some extra literature about them and how to properly train them. And I hope I will find something. Either way if I wont know how to properly teach the dog regarding some kind of behaviour then I shall ask the breeder or/and ask on the forum below in the wolfdog topic. As for the time being I am waiting on my pup to become 8 weeks and meanwhile learn everything possible about SWHs. As for finding other owners in Norway well I think this can be rather difficult in the area where I live. I know just about the SWH breeder in Trondheim but its like over 600 kilometers from the place where I live. And as for the wolfdogs I think that it can only help if there will be many SWHs in Norway. Since it will prove that CSV can be safe too. And I know that there are maybe many opponents of wolfes in Norway (although I have never met one in person only on the webforums) but I hope I wont have any problems with them. If I ever get wolfopponents knocking on my door or meet them anywhere then I shall ofc. ask for your advice as to how to properly respond to them. And as I said before if you need any help with any political pressure to make the future of SWH and CSV safer in Norway then I shall gladly help. And I shall definitly not be an "irresponsible" owner. I wish you all a great christmas time, and a wonderful new year!

23-12-2009, 23:20	#5
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	Well as for the law rules regarding import I have a good overview of them since I have both read the rules from "mattilsynet" and spoken with "mattilsynet" personally about the import. Germany is listed as a rabies free nation so after I give an import declaration to the "mattilsynet" they shall give me an import allowance of a pup below 3 months. So there will be no quarantine etc. The customs need only the paper from the "mattilsynet" that I will get before the import. If everybody had to relay on other SW owners then there would be only SW owners in Trondheim, but from what I know there are going to be many new SW owners in Norway in 2010 and probably many of them will live far away from Trondheim. So it should be possible by using a proper amount of time, patience and carefullness to properly train a SW. And I am not totally unexperienced since I have about 14 years of experience with a German Sheperd. And if you say that SW owners dont exist in public well then maybe its the reason why the law is so "unsafe". In England the CSV was banned too and then they took a very public course of action which made the ban lifted. So maybe its something to think about I dont know. The wolfhaters are like 0,1 % of the whole population I think or maybe I have just had the luck of never meeting anyone of them. I think you can find more "rotweiler-haters" in Norway, and still Rotweilers are not in danger of being illegal. I think that the other reason of not meeting so many SW owners on the foras is that the race is not so well known as the CSV so its not only in Norway but in other countries too that its hard to find any SW forum, it was even hard to find the breeders in Europe (where the dog is not in any "unsafe" position) so the cause is maybe the rareness of the breed too. If you already think that I am an "irresponisible" owner....well I dunno what you do base this statement upon other than the fact that I think that more publicity about a race and more knowledge will just be good and not bad. I think that most "bans" and quarries between people come from the lack of knowledge and the fear of the "unknown". I think there are few dog owners that use/will use so much time and effort on their dog and really care about it. And I am not a person that do easily give up when meeting on difficulties. I am not confident that I will do it perfectly or anything like that but I know that with enough effort it should go well and I can always ask both the breeder and other people who own SWs if something is not as it should be. I think that it could be wiser to think about those anonymous 11 or more new SW owners that will get their dogs in 2010 in Norway than about me. What is hidden from the public eyes is more often the reason of something not wanted that happen. Instead of using your efforts on criticising me because I am going to have a SW, it could be actually better to give some helpful advice......(just dont tell me to resign from buying the dog).

26-12-2009, 05:51	#7
XaedasKSP Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skien/Oslo Posts: 83	I do know of the responsibility its is something needed when owning any dog not only a wolfdog. As for the advice well here on this forum I havent heard any advice regarding keeping of the wolfdog itself..... If it goes about my knowledge of the dogs then I have heard about the CSV long ago but didnt plan then to own a dog, so when I decided to get a dog then I did check more info about it and in the end found out that it really is banned in Norway in a way that makes it impossible to own the dog in Norway until it gets legalized. While learning more about the CSV I did also discover the Saarloos and got more info about it. And after reading the breed characteristic I found out that it is very similar to the CSV in character and that some of its traits are even better for me and the place where I do mainly live. Therefore I decided to get a Saarloos. And while I am waiting on my pup to become 8 weeks, I do try to get most possible info about how to properly train a Saarloos so it can be a nice company dog for me and dont get into any "accidents". Ahh and I didnt make the reservation "over night" it took like 2 weeks to find a breeder with wolfgrey pups for sale after a long search through the internet and asking many breeders who didnt have any litters or planned ones soon. As for the situation of the wolfdogs in Norway, well I think that publicity can only make it better like it did in the UK (some other people do also share this view and for example the Norwegian SW breeder got a homepage where they tell about the SWs, so its wrong to say that every owner of SW in Norway tries to "hide"). But since people got different points of view regarding how to make the situation of SW safer in Norway and unban the CSV then it becomes fast something to argue about. What I plan to do is to get the legalising of CSV on the list of things to be done by the political party that I am a member of, so they can put this case first in "Fremskritt" (the partys newspaper), then on the "landsmøte", eventually to be voted upon in the Storting. Without going to deep into politics (so I dont get banned again) I can say that FrP care very much about the freedom of the individual so this case of banning a breed and preventing people from owning it with no real reason of doing so will be something that they shall gladly try to solve when they get the proper knowledge about the case. I dont want to talk especially about politics here but since the law is connected with the politics I cant just skip them since changing the law requires political action. I hope the moderator will understand this and dont ban for talking about politics when trying to change a law. I hope you all have a nice Christmas, and again I wish you all a happy new year!