Forming a breed club in the US

yukidomari · 12-04-2010, 21:03

Speaking of ethics..

I would really like to see a breed club in which certain health testing is mandatory. I've seen lots of breed clubs in which it is 'strongly recommended'.. to me, that's not quite enough. Also minimum age at first breeding.. again, lots of breed clubs have a vague 'strongly recommended' after 18 months of age.. but not a deal breaker (though to me, it really should be a deal breaker).

Regarding titling.. I think that it's fine to list on the breeder referral, only those who have at least titled their dogs in some way.. because the breeder referral is basically for the general public. I do agree that the population itself isn't large enough for all untitled dogs to be genetically excluded, but perhaps a database (like the one here) for dogs in the US can be had, separate from a breeders' directory. That way it is still possible for those dogs to contribute internally, through the club, but they would not be the go-to source for outside persons curious to buy a dog.

In previous experience looking into another rare (in the US) breed, you sometimes get the people who take the 'well there are only 4 specimens of the breed in the states, so we can't exclude any of them' route.. including dogs with diagnosed problems. That would be disasterous.

draggar · 12-04-2010, 21:10

I fully agree with health certifications - especially with genetic issues.

DM - unless both (direct) parents are Normal / Normal - the dog should be tested. Grandparents cannot be used - even if all 4 are normal / normal.

OFA - Hip certification.

CERF (Eyes)

Other genetic disorders should be noted. But also, the genetics themselves should be looked at. For example, with DM, an N/A dog could be bred to a N/N and statistically half the puppies would only be carriers (just don't breed an N/A to an N/A or even an A/A!!). This way if you have an extremely good dog with something like this you could attempt to breed it out without risking making it worse.

I'm sure there are many others that I'm not thinking of.

Titles - I think there should be at least some basic titling. Maybe we could inforperate our own titling structure specific for the breed or maybe stick to what's out there - agility, obedience, tracking, for example?

While we can't be too picky now, we should still look at what's being bred, even pulling dogs form breeding programs that clearly shouldn't be bred (poor hips, poor temperament etc..).

Gypsy Wolf · 12-04-2010, 21:24

I would think there should be a committee formed to approve Breed Wardens. People who have a lot of experience in dogs (not necessarily CsV required as that would severely limit available and competent resources), training, titling, behavior, etc. For instance, I would trust judgment of my dogs by Fred Lanting who I don't think has even met a CsV yet. He literally wrote the book on Canine Orthopedics and has judged ALL kinds of breeds around the world, bred and titled dogs himself, and, if properly educated on our breed, would, in my opinion, be an excellent and impartial (since he doesn't have one) Breed Warden.
AKC Judge James Frederickson is also a judge who I respect greatly. There are also UKC judges, like Skip (forgot his last name, but he breeds Pit Bulls), who I think would also be an excellent resource.
I think once they are approved as a Breed Warden, I would think it should be a lifetime title, like a judge's position. Approving committees/boards would be elected and changing positions, of course, so that there is no political cliques going on.
I think we could take the Bonitation program and use that as at least our foundation...

draggar · 12-04-2010, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

There are also UKC judges, like Skip (forgot his last name, but he breeds Pit Bulls), who I think would also be an excellent resource.

Cecil (a.k.a. Skip) Miller.

I would be against the "lifetime" breed warden - once they're accepted what's their motivation to really keep the breed a priority?

Look at Hunte joining the GSDCA. While this is an extreme case, how could we tell someone who truly has the breed's best interest in mind as opposed to someone who is just a very good BS artist? At least with the election (or appointment) process they'd need to keep their priorities straight or else they'll get booted.

Nebulosa · 12-04-2010, 22:54

Lunas Mom, your idea is nice, but I see a huge problem there, know how to judge dogs and even be a good judge and vet does not mean know how to select the CzW breed, principaly if someone is already used with breeds that have such huge genetic pool like Pit Bulls, Labradors or Goldens, even if you educate this person, dificultly you will breake some already formed concepts, for exemple:
In Golden retriever, if you have a nice litter with good and interesting dogs, you repeat it and it will not be a problem, in CzW you take care in the chose of the owners, stay in touch with some of them and should not repeat the mate even if it was one of the nicest mating you've ever seen, the gene pool is really small, will be a waste anyway if you repeat a litter when you already have pups of this mate that can continue the line of this conection, no different thing happen when we talk about inbreedng and linebreedings, that are common in popular breeds and even used for "fix your ownblood line of breeding" but that should be done with a lot of care in CzW, normaly for accentuate characteristics/bloodline wichs disapearing by some dogs/lines, not thinking in "your own bloodline" only.
Sometimes you will find dogs that are not nice at all, because of the line, because of the threatment or even because of both, but these dogs could be used in a very interesting way for the breeding if the breed comission use the correct conections, even if this dog isnt exactly what the standard say, if he have an interesting line if worked properly can, futurely, improve the breed.
Of course would be nice you count with the HELP of these people, but the decision should be up to a breed comission formed by breeders and the most experienced people possible in your country, and here im not talking about "experience = years of breding" but "experience = Knowledge and etic to breed right".
I mean it because select a breed is not only know genetic and so, but know whats happening, be attent to everything new, separe gossips of the truth, stay informed and in touch with others breeders, unfortunately this kind f interst you will not find by other people than breeders, as its not only a one more study, but almost a "way of live".

Gypsy Wolf · 12-04-2010, 23:34

Obviously, the selection/appointment/approval of a Breed Warden would have to be reviewed extensively by whatever Board or Committee is in charge of it. I think, at least here in the United States, we cannot expect potential Breed Wardens to have extensive experience in the breed as we don't have that many here in the first place. That doesn't mean they are not able to be a good Breed Warden.
Take, for instance, myself - Luna is my first CsV. I, however, have a Bachelor's Degree majoring in Animal Behavior and have been training, competing, titling and working dogs for over 17 years - dogs of every breed and I have training in almost EVERY dog sport from skijoring (a massive failure trying to use my Malinois - they tend to run in circles and I kept getting wrapped around trees) to waterwork, frisbee, agility, herding, schH... you name it, I have tried it. I have titled dogs in Obedience, Rally and SchH, as well as having great success in the conformation ring with trips to Eukanuba (invitation only) and Westminster and even got invited to Crufts!
I have an excellent eye for structure (I have been invited to evaluate many litters of multiple breeds to select conformation as well as working picks), I have bred only 2 litters, but have had excellent success with them, I was a Veterinary Technician (veterinary nurse) for years, I am a DVG-Certified Training Director, and used to run the obedience program at a local animal shelter for years - and I have numerous other achievements that won't fit in just one post. I am not bragging here, but I feel pretty confident that I would be able to objectively look at the temperament of a dog, as well as the physical structure, and determine what the correct CsV is per the Standard. Other dog folks have asked me to evaluate their dogs (breeds from Dalmatians to Goldens to GSD, Nefoundlands, Finnish Spitz, Collies and others) and so far, I have been on the money. Personally, even though I always review each breed's Standard before evaluating, there is also a certain "esthetic" one with a good "eye" can pick out immediately. A harmony. Not to mention how easy it is to "test" a dog and see what kind of character it possesses.
Of course, I have been studying dogs for years, go to several educational seminars for both structure and behavior throughout a given year, etc.
Just because I have limited exposure to the CsV as a breed, does not mean I wouldn't have the skills to determine what should be bred and what shouldn't. That is, after all, what a breeder does, and who better to ask to be a steward of the breed?

lupis · 08-05-2010, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Take, for instance, myself - Luna is my first CsV. I, however, have a Bachelor's Degree majoring in Animal Behavior and have been training, competing, titling and working dogs for over 17 years - dogs of every breed and I have training in almost EVERY dog sport from skijoring (a massive failure trying to use my Malinois - they tend to run in circles and I kept getting wrapped around trees) to waterwork, frisbee, agility, herding, schH... you name it, I have tried it. I have titled dogs in Obedience, Rally and SchH, as well as having great success in the conformation ring with trips to Eukanuba (invitation only) and Westminster and even got invited to Crufts!

Not words are important but what you do. I also beginner as owner but i read forum for years. Maybe you have experiences in other breed but you select wolfdogs like beginner. You write "work" "working" and what... you buy antiworking dog. you know to select good puppy you have to check puppies, parents, see character, speak with owners. for have good dog for work is to read and choose, And not to buy first offered puppy.

Gypsy Wolf · 24-05-2010, 21:27

Just because you have been on a forum for years does not make you an expert or more experienced than I am. Yes, I am a beginner when it comes to actually LIVING with a vlcak - since there are only a handful here in the country, there is little chance I would have to spend time with one casually.
And I did not buy the first pup that came along... not that I have to defend myself against the accusatory tone of your posts, but I have been in contact with several kennels throughout Europe as well as one here in the U.S. for the last year or so, quietly researching what I like/did not like, etc.
Just because I am not blabbing all over the forum doesn't mean I am not doing my homework. You seem to be a lot of talk and I see no action.
I am more than happy with my choice when it comes to working ability. Perhaps your idea of working is quite different than mine. For me, I want a dog who is "game" to try anything, stable and responsive in public, likes bitework, is intelligent and flashy in obedience, committed to the Track, has excellent, sound conformtaion and has decent prey drive. I don't need a vlcak that is such a drivey dog that I can't live with it. I need a dog who I can snuggle with, too, and can live in harmony with my other pets (though the cats are not thrilled with her)...
Luna, so far, has fulfilled these requirements, and we hope to have a successful adventure with her. And even if she isn't the "ultimate" working dog, I am quite satisfied with her.
Put your money where your mouth is - how many dogs have you titled?

Hanka · 13-04-2010, 08:06

Hi Marcy, I am happy, in US will be club for wolfdogs. I wish to your club really well working breedcomission, which will care about health of wolfdogs.
If US breedcomission will make groups of males (blood groups folowed lines) I offer you my help.
And I think, you can ask czech club if you will need some help, if you will have questions.
You know, you can write me when you will want

.
bye Hanka

draggar · 13-04-2010, 21:41

I don't mind an international presence when it comes to wardens, especially now in the beginning since officially there is only one active breeder in the USA now (Marcy - unless someone else has some "buns in the oven"). We're relatively inexperienced with the breed as a nation (no offense to anyone but - we are

) I'm sure consultations from experienced breeders abroad would be extremely helpful until we can get things going well.

yukidomari · 13-04-2010, 21:51

I like the idea of more experienced people.. even moreso if they are from the international community. But, I don't know how accurate a bonitation or bonitation-like activity would go without actually seeing the dogs in person though. I know of lots of unphotogenic dogs, and also photogenic dogs.. movement and gait would be left out of the picture too.

I don't know how well to judge temperament without actually being there, either.

12-04-2010, 21:10	#2
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	I fully agree with health certifications - especially with genetic issues. DM - unless both (direct) parents are Normal / Normal - the dog should be tested. Grandparents cannot be used - even if all 4 are normal / normal. OFA - Hip certification. CERF (Eyes) Other genetic disorders should be noted. But also, the genetics themselves should be looked at. For example, with DM, an N/A dog could be bred to a N/N and statistically half the puppies would only be carriers (just don't breed an N/A to an N/A or even an A/A!!). This way if you have an extremely good dog with something like this you could attempt to breed it out without risking making it worse. I'm sure there are many others that I'm not thinking of. Titles - I think there should be at least some basic titling. Maybe we could inforperate our own titling structure specific for the breed or maybe stick to what's out there - agility, obedience, tracking, for example? While we can't be too picky now, we should still look at what's being bred, even pulling dogs form breeding programs that clearly shouldn't be bred (poor hips, poor temperament etc..). __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

12-04-2010, 22:54	#5
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Lunas Mom, your idea is nice, but I see a huge problem there, know how to judge dogs and even be a good judge and vet does not mean know how to select the CzW breed, principaly if someone is already used with breeds that have such huge genetic pool like Pit Bulls, Labradors or Goldens, even if you educate this person, dificultly you will breake some already formed concepts, for exemple: In Golden retriever, if you have a nice litter with good and interesting dogs, you repeat it and it will not be a problem, in CzW you take care in the chose of the owners, stay in touch with some of them and should not repeat the mate even if it was one of the nicest mating you've ever seen, the gene pool is really small, will be a waste anyway if you repeat a litter when you already have pups of this mate that can continue the line of this conection, no different thing happen when we talk about inbreedng and linebreedings, that are common in popular breeds and even used for "fix your ownblood line of breeding" but that should be done with a lot of care in CzW, normaly for accentuate characteristics/bloodline wichs disapearing by some dogs/lines, not thinking in "your own bloodline" only. Sometimes you will find dogs that are not nice at all, because of the line, because of the threatment or even because of both, but these dogs could be used in a very interesting way for the breeding if the breed comission use the correct conections, even if this dog isnt exactly what the standard say, if he have an interesting line if worked properly can, futurely, improve the breed. Of course would be nice you count with the HELP of these people, but the decision should be up to a breed comission formed by breeders and the most experienced people possible in your country, and here im not talking about "experience = years of breding" but "experience = Knowledge and etic to breed right". I mean it because select a breed is not only know genetic and so, but know whats happening, be attent to everything new, separe gossips of the truth, stay informed and in touch with others breeders, unfortunately this kind f interst you will not find by other people than breeders, as its not only a one more study, but almost a "way of live". __________________

13-04-2010, 21:41	#10
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	I don't mind an international presence when it comes to wardens, especially now in the beginning since officially there is only one active breeder in the USA now (Marcy - unless someone else has some "buns in the oven"). We're relatively inexperienced with the breed as a nation (no offense to anyone but - we are ) I'm sure consultations from experienced breeders abroad would be extremely helpful until we can get things going well. __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

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12-04-2010, 21:03	#1
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Speaking of ethics.. I would really like to see a breed club in which certain health testing is mandatory. I've seen lots of breed clubs in which it is 'strongly recommended'.. to me, that's not quite enough. Also minimum age at first breeding.. again, lots of breed clubs have a vague 'strongly recommended' after 18 months of age.. but not a deal breaker (though to me, it really should be a deal breaker). Regarding titling.. I think that it's fine to list on the breeder referral, only those who have at least titled their dogs in some way.. because the breeder referral is basically for the general public. I do agree that the population itself isn't large enough for all untitled dogs to be genetically excluded, but perhaps a database (like the one here) for dogs in the US can be had, separate from a breeders' directory. That way it is still possible for those dogs to contribute internally, through the club, but they would not be the go-to source for outside persons curious to buy a dog. In previous experience looking into another rare (in the US) breed, you sometimes get the people who take the 'well there are only 4 specimens of the breed in the states, so we can't exclude any of them' route.. including dogs with diagnosed problems. That would be disasterous.

12-04-2010, 21:24	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I would think there should be a committee formed to approve Breed Wardens. People who have a lot of experience in dogs (not necessarily CsV required as that would severely limit available and competent resources), training, titling, behavior, etc. For instance, I would trust judgment of my dogs by Fred Lanting who I don't think has even met a CsV yet. He literally wrote the book on Canine Orthopedics and has judged ALL kinds of breeds around the world, bred and titled dogs himself, and, if properly educated on our breed, would, in my opinion, be an excellent and impartial (since he doesn't have one) Breed Warden. AKC Judge James Frederickson is also a judge who I respect greatly. There are also UKC judges, like Skip (forgot his last name, but he breeds Pit Bulls), who I think would also be an excellent resource. I think once they are approved as a Breed Warden, I would think it should be a lifetime title, like a judge's position. Approving committees/boards would be elected and changing positions, of course, so that there is no political cliques going on. I think we could take the Bonitation program and use that as at least our foundation...

12-04-2010, 23:34	#6
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Obviously, the selection/appointment/approval of a Breed Warden would have to be reviewed extensively by whatever Board or Committee is in charge of it. I think, at least here in the United States, we cannot expect potential Breed Wardens to have extensive experience in the breed as we don't have that many here in the first place. That doesn't mean they are not able to be a good Breed Warden. Take, for instance, myself - Luna is my first CsV. I, however, have a Bachelor's Degree majoring in Animal Behavior and have been training, competing, titling and working dogs for over 17 years - dogs of every breed and I have training in almost EVERY dog sport from skijoring (a massive failure trying to use my Malinois - they tend to run in circles and I kept getting wrapped around trees) to waterwork, frisbee, agility, herding, schH... you name it, I have tried it. I have titled dogs in Obedience, Rally and SchH, as well as having great success in the conformation ring with trips to Eukanuba (invitation only) and Westminster and even got invited to Crufts! I have an excellent eye for structure (I have been invited to evaluate many litters of multiple breeds to select conformation as well as working picks), I have bred only 2 litters, but have had excellent success with them, I was a Veterinary Technician (veterinary nurse) for years, I am a DVG-Certified Training Director, and used to run the obedience program at a local animal shelter for years - and I have numerous other achievements that won't fit in just one post. I am not bragging here, but I feel pretty confident that I would be able to objectively look at the temperament of a dog, as well as the physical structure, and determine what the correct CsV is per the Standard. Other dog folks have asked me to evaluate their dogs (breeds from Dalmatians to Goldens to GSD, Nefoundlands, Finnish Spitz, Collies and others) and so far, I have been on the money. Personally, even though I always review each breed's Standard before evaluating, there is also a certain "esthetic" one with a good "eye" can pick out immediately. A harmony. Not to mention how easy it is to "test" a dog and see what kind of character it possesses. Of course, I have been studying dogs for years, go to several educational seminars for both structure and behavior throughout a given year, etc. Just because I have limited exposure to the CsV as a breed, does not mean I wouldn't have the skills to determine what should be bred and what shouldn't. That is, after all, what a breeder does, and who better to ask to be a steward of the breed?

24-05-2010, 21:27	#8
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Just because you have been on a forum for years does not make you an expert or more experienced than I am. Yes, I am a beginner when it comes to actually LIVING with a vlcak - since there are only a handful here in the country, there is little chance I would have to spend time with one casually. And I did not buy the first pup that came along... not that I have to defend myself against the accusatory tone of your posts, but I have been in contact with several kennels throughout Europe as well as one here in the U.S. for the last year or so, quietly researching what I like/did not like, etc. Just because I am not blabbing all over the forum doesn't mean I am not doing my homework. You seem to be a lot of talk and I see no action. I am more than happy with my choice when it comes to working ability. Perhaps your idea of working is quite different than mine. For me, I want a dog who is "game" to try anything, stable and responsive in public, likes bitework, is intelligent and flashy in obedience, committed to the Track, has excellent, sound conformtaion and has decent prey drive. I don't need a vlcak that is such a drivey dog that I can't live with it. I need a dog who I can snuggle with, too, and can live in harmony with my other pets (though the cats are not thrilled with her)... Luna, so far, has fulfilled these requirements, and we hope to have a successful adventure with her. And even if she isn't the "ultimate" working dog, I am quite satisfied with her. Put your money where your mouth is - how many dogs have you titled?

13-04-2010, 08:06	#9
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hi Marcy, I am happy, in US will be club for wolfdogs. I wish to your club really well working breedcomission, which will care about health of wolfdogs. If US breedcomission will make groups of males (blood groups folowed lines) I offer you my help. And I think, you can ask czech club if you will need some help, if you will have questions. You know, you can write me when you will want . bye Hanka

13-04-2010, 21:51	#11
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	I like the idea of more experienced people.. even moreso if they are from the international community. But, I don't know how accurate a bonitation or bonitation-like activity would go without actually seeing the dogs in person though. I know of lots of unphotogenic dogs, and also photogenic dogs.. movement and gait would be left out of the picture too. I don't know how well to judge temperament without actually being there, either.