Forming a breed club in the US

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

So how about this: Breed Wardens.
A totally objective set of opinions from those dedicated to preserving the correct character of the breed? Perhaps we can take some of the American Temperament Test Society's exercises, some "courage tests" from the GSD world, ZTP from Rottie folks and make up our own test to judge CsV character? I am sure the original CsV breeding program MUST have had something similar, no? Perhaps Karel Hartl can help us design one? Perhaps have a "board" of three different judges or have three different tests under different judges and that would determine breeding suitability without having to title a dog?
I think something like that would be more than acceptable to all factions of CsV fanciers...
Thoughts?

Good idea. But how will those wardens/judges be qualified? Judges at actual shows have had years and years of experience looking at all different types of dogs and many have been breeders in one breed or the other, as well.

Also, bonitations as they exist for CSVs roughly touch upon temperamental aspects.. all dogs can have a bonitation done regardless of having a fault or not. Perhaps a modified program like the existing bonitation, with more of an emphasis and spectrum on temperament would be workable?

[draggar]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Good idea. But how will those wardens/judges be qualified? Judges at actual shows have had years and years of experience looking at all different types of dogs and many have been breeders in one breed or the other, as well.

First I think the CsVCA (since this is about forming the club in the USA)should get the standard set - I know Marcy has the FCI (I think?) standard on the site:

http://www.czechoslovakianvlcak.org/standard.html

Maybe we should look over the standard (with a magnifying glass) and decide if it needs editing in any way.

Then, members with voting rights to the CsVCA can appoint someone (does the appointed person need to be a member of the CsVCA?) or volunteer to be an aspect warden (physical, temperament etc. as examples) and then all voting members vote on the people who were nominated. Each warden serves for a one year term and then the CsVCA would repeat the process (much like board members). Multiple members so that the decisions aren't made by one person.

Right now there are very few CsV people in the USA so I think we could have some international help with this (I don't think it would require someone to be in the USA to be a warden?).

We should also get a code of ethics set up and stand by it 100% (nothing on that page yet) so that all owners and breeders (current and potential) know what the club would expect from them.

[yukidomari]

Speaking of ethics..

I would really like to see a breed club in which certain health testing is mandatory. I've seen lots of breed clubs in which it is 'strongly recommended'.. to me, that's not quite enough. Also minimum age at first breeding.. again, lots of breed clubs have a vague 'strongly recommended' after 18 months of age.. but not a deal breaker (though to me, it really should be a deal breaker).

Regarding titling.. I think that it's fine to list on the breeder referral, only those who have at least titled their dogs in some way.. because the breeder referral is basically for the general public. I do agree that the population itself isn't large enough for all untitled dogs to be genetically excluded, but perhaps a database (like the one here) for dogs in the US can be had, separate from a breeders' directory. That way it is still possible for those dogs to contribute internally, through the club, but they would not be the go-to source for outside persons curious to buy a dog.

In previous experience looking into another rare (in the US) breed, you sometimes get the people who take the 'well there are only 4 specimens of the breed in the states, so we can't exclude any of them' route.. including dogs with diagnosed problems. That would be disasterous.

[draggar]

I fully agree with health certifications - especially with genetic issues.

DM - unless both (direct) parents are Normal / Normal - the dog should be tested. Grandparents cannot be used - even if all 4 are normal / normal.

OFA - Hip certification.

CERF (Eyes)

Other genetic disorders should be noted. But also, the genetics themselves should be looked at. For example, with DM, an N/A dog could be bred to a N/N and statistically half the puppies would only be carriers (just don't breed an N/A to an N/A or even an A/A!!). This way if you have an extremely good dog with something like this you could attempt to breed it out without risking making it worse.

I'm sure there are many others that I'm not thinking of.

Titles - I think there should be at least some basic titling. Maybe we could inforperate our own titling structure specific for the breed or maybe stick to what's out there - agility, obedience, tracking, for example?

While we can't be too picky now, we should still look at what's being bred, even pulling dogs form breeding programs that clearly shouldn't be bred (poor hips, poor temperament etc..).

[Gypsy Wolf]

I would think there should be a committee formed to approve Breed Wardens. People who have a lot of experience in dogs (not necessarily CsV required as that would severely limit available and competent resources), training, titling, behavior, etc. For instance, I would trust judgment of my dogs by Fred Lanting who I don't think has even met a CsV yet. He literally wrote the book on Canine Orthopedics and has judged ALL kinds of breeds around the world, bred and titled dogs himself, and, if properly educated on our breed, would, in my opinion, be an excellent and impartial (since he doesn't have one) Breed Warden.
AKC Judge James Frederickson is also a judge who I respect greatly. There are also UKC judges, like Skip (forgot his last name, but he breeds Pit Bulls), who I think would also be an excellent resource.
I think once they are approved as a Breed Warden, I would think it should be a lifetime title, like a judge's position. Approving committees/boards would be elected and changing positions, of course, so that there is no political cliques going on.
I think we could take the Bonitation program and use that as at least our foundation...

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

There are also UKC judges, like Skip (forgot his last name, but he breeds Pit Bulls), who I think would also be an excellent resource.

Cecil (a.k.a. Skip) Miller.

I would be against the "lifetime" breed warden - once they're accepted what's their motivation to really keep the breed a priority?

Look at Hunte joining the GSDCA. While this is an extreme case, how could we tell someone who truly has the breed's best interest in mind as opposed to someone who is just a very good BS artist? At least with the election (or appointment) process they'd need to keep their priorities straight or else they'll get booted.

[Nebulosa]

Lunas Mom, your idea is nice, but I see a huge problem there, know how to judge dogs and even be a good judge and vet does not mean know how to select the CzW breed, principaly if someone is already used with breeds that have such huge genetic pool like Pit Bulls, Labradors or Goldens, even if you educate this person, dificultly you will breake some already formed concepts, for exemple:
In Golden retriever, if you have a nice litter with good and interesting dogs, you repeat it and it will not be a problem, in CzW you take care in the chose of the owners, stay in touch with some of them and should not repeat the mate even if it was one of the nicest mating you've ever seen, the gene pool is really small, will be a waste anyway if you repeat a litter when you already have pups of this mate that can continue the line of this conection, no different thing happen when we talk about inbreedng and linebreedings, that are common in popular breeds and even used for "fix your ownblood line of breeding" but that should be done with a lot of care in CzW, normaly for accentuate characteristics/bloodline wichs disapearing by some dogs/lines, not thinking in "your own bloodline" only.
Sometimes you will find dogs that are not nice at all, because of the line, because of the threatment or even because of both, but these dogs could be used in a very interesting way for the breeding if the breed comission use the correct conections, even if this dog isnt exactly what the standard say, if he have an interesting line if worked properly can, futurely, improve the breed.
Of course would be nice you count with the HELP of these people, but the decision should be up to a breed comission formed by breeders and the most experienced people possible in your country, and here im not talking about "experience = years of breding" but "experience = Knowledge and etic to breed right".
I mean it because select a breed is not only know genetic and so, but know whats happening, be attent to everything new, separe gossips of the truth, stay informed and in touch with others breeders, unfortunately this kind f interst you will not find by other people than breeders, as its not only a one more study, but almost a "way of live".

[Gypsy Wolf]

Obviously, the selection/appointment/approval of a Breed Warden would have to be reviewed extensively by whatever Board or Committee is in charge of it. I think, at least here in the United States, we cannot expect potential Breed Wardens to have extensive experience in the breed as we don't have that many here in the first place. That doesn't mean they are not able to be a good Breed Warden.
Take, for instance, myself - Luna is my first CsV. I, however, have a Bachelor's Degree majoring in Animal Behavior and have been training, competing, titling and working dogs for over 17 years - dogs of every breed and I have training in almost EVERY dog sport from skijoring (a massive failure trying to use my Malinois - they tend to run in circles and I kept getting wrapped around trees) to waterwork, frisbee, agility, herding, schH... you name it, I have tried it. I have titled dogs in Obedience, Rally and SchH, as well as having great success in the conformation ring with trips to Eukanuba (invitation only) and Westminster and even got invited to Crufts!
I have an excellent eye for structure (I have been invited to evaluate many litters of multiple breeds to select conformation as well as working picks), I have bred only 2 litters, but have had excellent success with them, I was a Veterinary Technician (veterinary nurse) for years, I am a DVG-Certified Training Director, and used to run the obedience program at a local animal shelter for years - and I have numerous other achievements that won't fit in just one post. I am not bragging here, but I feel pretty confident that I would be able to objectively look at the temperament of a dog, as well as the physical structure, and determine what the correct CsV is per the Standard. Other dog folks have asked me to evaluate their dogs (breeds from Dalmatians to Goldens to GSD, Nefoundlands, Finnish Spitz, Collies and others) and so far, I have been on the money. Personally, even though I always review each breed's Standard before evaluating, there is also a certain "esthetic" one with a good "eye" can pick out immediately. A harmony. Not to mention how easy it is to "test" a dog and see what kind of character it possesses.
Of course, I have been studying dogs for years, go to several educational seminars for both structure and behavior throughout a given year, etc.
Just because I have limited exposure to the CsV as a breed, does not mean I wouldn't have the skills to determine what should be bred and what shouldn't. That is, after all, what a breeder does, and who better to ask to be a steward of the breed?

[Hanka]

Hi Marcy, I am happy, in US will be club for wolfdogs. I wish to your club really well working breedcomission, which will care about health of wolfdogs.
If US breedcomission will make groups of males (blood groups folowed lines) I offer you my help.
And I think, you can ask czech club if you will need some help, if you will have questions.
You know, you can write me when you will want .
bye Hanka