Puppy in California

draggar · 17-08-2010, 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Several owners have had real struggles, but managed to ride out the "storm" of adolescence and have reached the peaceful side of maturity.

Hence her nick name "Hurricane Luna".

I don't think I've ever had a dog that's had this much energy but around 7 months old she started to calm down, she's almost 8 months now.

The only really high energy time now is when she and Pongo are out together. Then it's a category 5 hurricane. He still has a lot of energy but hopefully he'll start to calm down in the next few months, I think he just turned 6 months a few weeks ago. (Is his breeder here? Was his birthday Feb 3 or March 2?).

But - I was proactive and to keep it out of the hands of squatters, I did register vlcakrescue.com and vlcakrescue.org (both now point to the CsVCA website).

As for EU breeders contacting people in the USA, while it is a great idea I'm sure there are some breeders who don't want to bother with that with the fear of losing a sale and if the prospective owner is rejected by one breeder, they can just go to another and another until they get what they want.

yukidomari · 12-09-2010, 19:48

For European breeders, responsible ones, anyway, PLEASE do research on suitable homes before exporting a dog to the US. Internationally, contracts are near un-reinforceable.

At least if both parties are in the same country, contracts have been successfully upheld in court... it won't be the same if the two parties are from different countries.

For the past couple of dogs I have had, there are existing stipulations in their contracts barring the rehoming of a dog unless it is back with the breeder, or immediate family per breeder consent... I would hope that ANY breeder who brings life into the world would feel personally responsible to find another home for the dog should the primary home be found to be unsuitable.

I'm happy that another home has been found for this dog!

Gypsy Wolf · 13-09-2010, 03:44

European breeders are not like American breeders at all, I have noticed. No guarantees, replacements or "please send back if you can keep it" clauses. I have yet to find a breeder overseas with a contract.
It's just a different mentality - I think buyers here do not do the research needed and do not follow through with the work required.
I do not think vlcaks will be a puppy mill sort of breed just because of their "needs" the fact that they usually don't breed over and over in a year's time and though they are gorgeous, once the public realizes what is entailed in keeping a vlcak, their will likely be little demand.
As an aside, there is a new pup in CA - a littermate to Pollux (AKA Pongo)... "Partha"...

yukidomari · 13-09-2010, 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

European breeders are not like American breeders at all, I have noticed. No guarantees, replacements or "please send back if you can keep it" clauses. I have yet to find a breeder overseas with a contract.
It's just a different mentality - I think buyers here do not do the research needed and do not follow through with the work required.
I do not think vlcaks will be a puppy mill sort of breed just because of their "needs" the fact that they usually don't breed over and over in a year's time and though they are gorgeous, once the public realizes what is entailed in keeping a vlcak, their will likely be little demand.
As an aside, there is a new pup in CA - a littermate to Pollux (AKA Pongo)... "Partha"...

Well, Catahoulas have very demanding needs too.. And rescues I know of and work with have seen entire litters put down and many adults currently needs homes..

So I wouldn't put I past people to exploit just about anything...

Perhaps not mill, but certainly backyard breeders of all sorts, I can see..as is the case in countries they are already popular in.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-09-2010, 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

. No guarantees, replacements or "please send back if you can keep it" clauses. I have yet to find a breeder overseas with a contract.

Sorry but this is simply not true. It depends on the country and the breeder, I am sure that there are also US breeders without contract.
In our contracts it is clearly stated that the dog has to be offered to us if it can´t be kept any longer and that we will find another owner if we can´t take it back ourself. In the German contracts we did also put fines of several thousand Euros on giving the dog away without announcing to us and to breed it outside the FCI.
As for the puppy from our kennel we did send to the US, I think we didn´t really send cotracts back and fro but we had a good contact to the former owner for a very long period via mail and phone, she was an experienced owner with already another wolfdog who kept contact and gives us updates every now and then. As I have no possiblity tho upheld any contract in court I didn´t bother too much but I wouldn´t sell a puppy overseas not knowing the person since quite a time and making clear that we will take any puppy back if necessary.
And I know that almost all German breeder do the same.

As for guarantees, this is a living creature what guarantees should be given apart from the health status at the moment of selling, wormtreatment, vaccination and chip? You can´t do more than choose the best parents you can find.

Ina

yukidomari · 13-09-2010, 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As for guarantees, this is a living creature what guarantees should be given apart from the health status at the moment of selling, wormtreatment, vaccination and chip? You can´t do more than choose the best parents you can find.

Ina

What I am familiar with in the US:

For example, one of our dogs developed 2 luxating patellae around 7 months old. Her breeder offered another dog, or refund her cost to help her surgery. (We picked the second... we didn't need another dog at the time).

Especially for when a dog was brought with intention of showing or breeding, say that the dog develops debilitating hip dysplasia, I know of a few breeders who will give another show-quality dog when the owner is ready in addition to the disabled dog.

That is what I know of personally here.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-09-2010, 08:24

As HD is genetical but also depending on the upbringing of the dog I find this rather strange to give as a guarantee, what you do out of personal care is something different.
For me this makes a trading object out of your dog, like a car for example.

Law in Europe is simple on that point, if you pair two dogs that you know to give genetical problems to their offspring with high risk you have to stand for the following problems, especially if you didn´t tell the buyers in advance. If you did your best to avoid any problem you can exclude this risk because you are not responsible for problems you didn´t know of and therefor couldn´t prevent.

Ina

yukidomari · 13-09-2010, 08:30

Yes, I understand that HD is genetic as well as environmental, but as certain cases go, I can imagine that if it was severe or bilateral, it may sometimes be concluded to be more genetic rather than environmental. Actually, I don't know how much environment 'causes' HD, because I haven't read of any conclusive links between HD and things like exercise, diet, or otherwise. So if you know of any, I would really like to know. I have heard of very old dogs also, maybe around 11 or 12 years old, that still had OFFA scanned hips that were "Excellent", and he was an Aussie used for real herding. I believe our breeder believed our dog's luxating patellae were genetic because it was bilateral, and because it was diagnosed right around when genetic LPs usually are diagnosed.

Anyway, it is not so much a trade, as you don't give back the original dogs, at least, not in the contracts that I have read and agreed with. You can choose to keep your dog and when the time is right take the additional dog that will fulfill the original purpose (work, show).

But, I think many breeders also feel that some conditions are environmental as well. It's popular here for 'guarantees' to end right at 24 months old, right around when HD, if it will appear badly, to appear.

I understand legally, someone may not be liable, but it seems like the right thing to do... If a puppy buyer ends up with a disabled dog, I don't think I could just say to myself, 'that's very sad.. But just bad luck.'

Rona · 13-09-2010, 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Sorry but this is simply not true. It depends on the country and the breeder...

I support this opinion. All Polish breeders I know, offer a contract! E.g. Margo asks an owner to sign a 3-page agreement where the rights of the pup/dog are very well protected! The "z Peronówki" dog must be X-rayed when adult, and should obtain breeding rights in congruence with local law by the time it is 3 years old (even if not used for breeding!). It cannot be re-sold without the agreement of the breeder and if anything goes wrong the breeder should be informed about it asap under a penalty clause.

It's another question whether the owners obey the contracts or not

Unfortuantely, our courts do not treat breaking breeding contracts too seriously and it'd take ages by the time the case appeared.

So it's more a matter of honour/decendcy to fulfil the requirements, than a legal issue.

13-09-2010, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

I support this opinion. All Polish breeders I know, offer a contract! E.g. Margo asks an owner to sign a 3-page agreement where the rights of the pup/dog are very well protected! The "z Peronówki" dog must be X-rayed when adult, and should obtain breeding rights in congruence with local law by the time it is 3 years old (even if not used for breeding!).

I'm curious, how would something like this work in a country like the US where there really ARE no "breeding rights" to speak of.

Would it transfer to getting show or sport titles? Or is there a way to gain breeding rights when you're out of the country (as in, gaining the right to breed in Poland while living in the US). I'm also curious, what does it take to breed with the FCI? Are people in the US limited in anyway as far as registering litters?

yukidomari · 14-09-2010, 00:03

Ina - I understand what you're saying now and I agree. Thanks for clarifying.

13-09-2010, 08:30	#8
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Yes, I understand that HD is genetic as well as environmental, but as certain cases go, I can imagine that if it was severe or bilateral, it may sometimes be concluded to be more genetic rather than environmental. Actually, I don't know how much environment 'causes' HD, because I haven't read of any conclusive links between HD and things like exercise, diet, or otherwise. So if you know of any, I would really like to know. I have heard of very old dogs also, maybe around 11 or 12 years old, that still had OFFA scanned hips that were "Excellent", and he was an Aussie used for real herding. I believe our breeder believed our dog's luxating patellae were genetic because it was bilateral, and because it was diagnosed right around when genetic LPs usually are diagnosed. Anyway, it is not so much a trade, as you don't give back the original dogs, at least, not in the contracts that I have read and agreed with. You can choose to keep your dog and when the time is right take the additional dog that will fulfill the original purpose (work, show). But, I think many breeders also feel that some conditions are environmental as well. It's popular here for 'guarantees' to end right at 24 months old, right around when HD, if it will appear badly, to appear. I understand legally, someone may not be liable, but it seems like the right thing to do... If a puppy buyer ends up with a disabled dog, I don't think I could just say to myself, 'that's very sad.. But just bad luck.' Last edited by yukidomari; 13-09-2010 at 08:42.

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12-09-2010, 19:48	#2
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	For European breeders, responsible ones, anyway, PLEASE do research on suitable homes before exporting a dog to the US. Internationally, contracts are near un-reinforceable. At least if both parties are in the same country, contracts have been successfully upheld in court... it won't be the same if the two parties are from different countries. For the past couple of dogs I have had, there are existing stipulations in their contracts barring the rehoming of a dog unless it is back with the breeder, or immediate family per breeder consent... I would hope that ANY breeder who brings life into the world would feel personally responsible to find another home for the dog should the primary home be found to be unsuitable. I'm happy that another home has been found for this dog!

13-09-2010, 03:44	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	European breeders are not like American breeders at all, I have noticed. No guarantees, replacements or "please send back if you can keep it" clauses. I have yet to find a breeder overseas with a contract. It's just a different mentality - I think buyers here do not do the research needed and do not follow through with the work required. I do not think vlcaks will be a puppy mill sort of breed just because of their "needs" the fact that they usually don't breed over and over in a year's time and though they are gorgeous, once the public realizes what is entailed in keeping a vlcak, their will likely be little demand. As an aside, there is a new pup in CA - a littermate to Pollux (AKA Pongo)... "Partha"...

13-09-2010, 08:24	#7
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	As HD is genetical but also depending on the upbringing of the dog I find this rather strange to give as a guarantee, what you do out of personal care is something different. For me this makes a trading object out of your dog, like a car for example. Law in Europe is simple on that point, if you pair two dogs that you know to give genetical problems to their offspring with high risk you have to stand for the following problems, especially if you didn´t tell the buyers in advance. If you did your best to avoid any problem you can exclude this risk because you are not responsible for problems you didn´t know of and therefor couldn´t prevent. Ina

14-09-2010, 00:03	#11
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Ina - I understand what you're saying now and I agree. Thanks for clarifying.